Why the clapping?

[Don_Ruggero]

I am quite aware of what he wrote in his writings…and I am also quite aware of what I lived.

This was an incredibly special moment for him.

It was an incredibly special moment for all of us.

And it well shows the power that applause can have in the context of the liturgy which, again, rites make provision for.

 

[TheHolyTrinity]

Cardinal Ratzinger famously said in Spirit of the Liturgy, (I think I will make shirts with this emblazoned on the back to wear to Mass)

Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. Such attraction fades quickly - it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation.

I personally can’t stand clapping during or at the end of mass. It happens a lot in one of the parishes I attend and not at all in the other. I find the clapping like a gunshot going off. It startles me every time. Just my point of view on how it affects me.

 

[Mathieu]

I think my point is just that it’s not up to us to judge anyone. If others find clapping a way to add to the worship of God then so be it for them.

I agree that it most definitely shouldn’t be DURING the liturgical worship, but at the end after/just before dismissal then it’s not a major issue.

 

[ricmat]

I think my point is just that it’s not up to us to judge anyone. If others find clapping a way to add to the worship of God then so be it for them.

You are right that we shouldn’t judge them.

But you can’t add your own novelties to the Mass just because in your mind it adds to the worship of God. If everybody started adding their own inventions, then there would be no Mass. It would be a return to Chaos.

I agree that it most definitely shouldn’t be DURING the liturgical worship, but at the end after/just before dismissal then it’s not a major issue.

Perhaps there could be an announcement just before the dismissal - “Those who wish to clap for …X… are welcome to do so after the other parishioners have left the Church building.”

 

[shainski]

Well, i must say I was used to this on big occasions (Easter and Christmas) at my previous church - when the choir had done a great deal of preparation - and they usually sang another song after the closing. But now the church I am in (in Milwaukee- not a different culture) - there is applause at the end of every single mass every week! I’ve gotten used to it, but I would prefer it not be done for every occasion). Even if you accept that the applause is okay, doing it for every occasion is like give a standing ovation for every performance)

 

[Horton]

I don’t think anyone here states there is never a time for applause, but clapping should not be the norm.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I am very much of the mind that there are indeed people in this forum, and in this very thread, who think there is never a time for applause.

 

[otjm]

Something which seems to escape notice - perhaps because it was not taught in school (where I learned it) is that a goodly number of countries rebelled, often violently, due to Western “sensibilities” and the domination of the elites who came to these “backward countries” when colonialism was alive and well. The oh so sophisticated Westerners (primarily European) were not, and to this day are not considered the most welcome - or even slightly welcome, and the cultural superiority of the Westerners is still a sore spot, particularly, but not by any means exclusively, in Africa.

The Church has been around for 2,000 years, but it was mostly in the last part of the last century that Catholicism grew by leaps and bounds in Africa, a time after the colonial masters were removed.

I know that Cardinal Sarah was giving a presentation in the United kingdom a couple of years ago; I have not read his material for that conference. Was he actually in the UK telling other African countries what they should or should not do? If so, one might think that instead of going to the home of the colonialists, he would go to a conference in Africa…

 

[otjm]

It would probably help if you could put it in context.

For starters, this thread began about applause after Mass. Not the same as what Cardinal Ratzinger was addressing. And I have just a slight suspicion he was addressing western Europe, not Africa.

You may not approve, either, or the clip of the clergy applauding for Pope Benedict. As a single example, you certainly have the right to an opinion; but if it were me, I would think that the opinion of the clergy applauding Pope Benedict might have a clearer idea of what at that moment was or was not appropriate. Or maybe it is just me who thinks that Cardinals might be better equipped to decide the appropriateness of it.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

You may not approve, either, or the clip of the clergy applauding for Pope Benedict. As a single example, you certainly have the right to an opinion; but if it were me, I would think that the opinion of the clergy applauding Pope Benedict might have a clearer idea of what at that moment was or was not appropriate. Or maybe it is just me who thinks that Cardinals might be better equipped to decide the appropriateness of it.

Oh…it was not just the Cardinals. In the video, behind them, are the lesser ranking members of the dicasteries, including from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Not to mention that the one applauding at the Pope’s left shoulder is the Director of the Office of Liturgical Celebrations of the Sovereign Pontiff, one of the Church’s most gifted liturgists as well as liturgical scholars.

There were no liturgical amateurs in any of those who were vested or in choir…it was, actually, to the contrary quite a gathering of brilliant minds relative to the liturgy of the Church.

What was remarkable was that there were waves of applause…when it would seem to start to abate, then a new and more thunderous wave would begin. Perfectly splendid.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Cardinal Ratzinger famously said in Spirit of the Liturgy, (I think I will make shirts with this emblazoned on the back to wear to Mass)

Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. Such attraction fades quickly - it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation.

What you’ve quoted is from a book written by then Cardinal Ratzinger. The quote is also taken out of it’s context, which was referring to a specific kind of situation. Taking it out of context makes it appear as if Pope Benedict XVI is an intolerant man. Surely that isn’t the aim of all those who use that quote to justify their own preference. What sort of weight do you think that isolated quote has?

 

[TheHolyTrinity]

What you’ve quoted is from a book written by then Cardinal Ratzinger. The quote is also taken out of it’s context, which was referring to a specific kind of situation. Taking it out of context makes it appear as if Pope Benedict XVI is an intolerant man. Surely that isn’t the aim of all those who use that quote to justify their own preference. What sort of weight do you think that isolated quote has?

This video may answer your questions @1Lord1Faith and @Sirach2.

I have indeed read Cardinal Ratzinger The Spirit of the Liturgy, his comments does not give light to him being intolerant. He is protecting the Sanctity of Mass.

Mass cannot, nor should not compete on a level of entertainment. In his writing he is correct that

“the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment”

Hence why I stated that clapping is like a gunshot going off … the deep interior silence and awareness of Jesus’ sacrifice for us all is harshly interrupted. Pax Christi THT

 

[Sirach2]

@TheHolyTrinity
I see that you have flagged me, even though I had said that for me it is time to move on.

I have indeed read Cardinal Ratzinger The Spirit of the Liturgy

If this is true, then you would have noted other antipathies of Cardinal Ratzinger in that publication, not limited merely to applause. Yet, his objections to the other matters have not held any weight, liturgically. The difficulty some have is being able to connect his opinion(s) with the hierarchy. These remain simply his opinion(s).

As Don Ruggero noted above, “The rites of ordination, among other rites, stipulate that applause by the liturgical assembly is an appropriate response.”

And again Don Ruggero noted, "Oh…it was not just the Cardinals. In the video, behind them, are the lesser ranking members of the dicasteries, including from the CDWDS. Not to mention that the one applauding at the Pope’s left shoulder is the Director of the Office of Liturgical Celebrations of the Sovereign Pontiff, one of the Church’s most gifted liturgists as well as liturgical scholars.

So where among the 215 cardinals are those who agree with Cdls. Ratzinger and Sarah? (Not to mention your citing Father Serpa’s opinion also as a final authority on this matter.)

This argument is just a futility in “he said” - “she said”. The bottom line is that if YOU prefer not to listen to anyone clap EVER, that is YOUR opinion. However, you would be incorrect to attempt to influence others using these three opinions as a mandate of liturgical law in order to support your own viewpoint.

 

[TheHolyTrinity]

As Don Ruggero noted above, “The rites of ordination, among other rites , stipulate that applause by the liturgical assembly is an appropriate response. ”

And again Don Ruggero noted, "Oh…it was not just the Cardinals. In the video, behind them, are the lesser ranking members of the dicasteries, including from the CDWDS . Not to mention that the one applauding at the Pope’s left shoulder is the Director of the Office of Liturgical Celebrations of the Sovereign Pontiff , one of the Church’s most gifted liturgists as well as liturgical scholars.

You have misread my post and intention, I was talking about clapping applause at the end of ordinary mass for the choir/musicians and not about ordinations etc. Totally different subject lines.

The bottom line is that if YOU prefer not to listen to anyone clap EVER, that is YOUR opinion.However, you would be incorrect to attempt to influence others using these three opinions as a mandate of liturgical law in order to support your own viewpoint.

Rather rude of you to imply that I am trying to sway any ones thoughts - that was never my intention.

 

[Sirach2]

You have misread my post and intention, I was talking about clapping applause at the end of ordinary mass for the choir/musicians and not about ordinations etc. Totally different subject lines.

I don’t believe I misread your intention - take a look at your post here, wherein you say ALL clapping whatsoever is abhorrent to you, not just for choir/musicians.

I personally can’t stand clapping during or at the end of mass. It happens a lot in one of the parishes I attend and not at all in the other. I find the clapping like a gunshot going off. It startles me every time. Just my point of view on how it affects me.

Whenever a person quotes another in authority, it is done with a view of trying to influence the reader. You quoted not only Cdl. Ratzinger, but posted a video from Fr. Serpa. And you further flagged me. Do you still maintain that you are not trying to sway ones thoughts? I disagree, and I was not being “rude” as you suggest, but honest.

I don’t see any value in further discussion on this, since we have differing points of view that will most likely not change with further debate. Once again, it is time for me to bow out. Happy New Year!

 

[otjm]

I don’t know that Sirach was any more rude than you were by selectively quoting out of context. And as a matter of fact, I don’t particularly find either of you being rude.

However, there have been numerous times in which people in these threads have quoted something out of context to make their point. And not everyone reading the comments and quotes posted has the material directly at hand, so they can see if the quote actually substantiates the opinion for which it addresses. That is not exactly totally above-board.

Note: I did not say it is dishonest; some people are not particularly adept at critical reading; others, because of their general opinions are so biased that other material from the same source, which is relevant to the discussion but does not fit within their bias and so is not even particularly noted by that reader. Nor is this a rare phenomenon; it takes one trained in critical analysis to be able to present both sides, even when the contradict a bias.

This thread has wandered over some significant ground; it started about clapping after the end of Mass (“Ite, Missa Est”) to clapping at the Consecration in foreign lands, to clapping at ordinations and other liturgical services.

Getting back to the topic of the post - clapping after Mass has ended, I am surprised by the judgmentalism of some herein who have decided, without asking those clapping, why they are doing so, but rather have decided they do so to “give glory” to the person/persons to which it is directed. I have on numerous occasions noted that the clapping is for the choir, and is simply a form of saying “thank you”. And I have yet to meet a choir member who feels they have been “glorified”. Perhaps some of the posters herein can read minds, but I kind of doubt it. It might seem more charitable to presume good intent instead of evil intent, just sayin’.

And no I am not fond of the noise level after Mass either, but I could give a litany of the charitable work as well as the innumerable evenings, nights, mornings and days some of those clapping have spent in an hour before the Blessed Sacrament, as our parish has 24 hour perpetual adoration. I am sure there is no conscious intent on the part of those accusing the clappers of “giving glory”, but to be honest, it smacks of an underlying attitude of “you are interfering with my holiness”. They may have no intent whatsoever of such an attitude, but that is how some are perceived.

Let me put it in terms of something I learned multi decades ago: “Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a sign of insanity”. If every Sunday people are clapping and disturbing your prayer time after Mass, a simple solution is to make those prayers elsewhere. The alternative is a constant temptation to uncharitable thoughts, words and actions. No, I am not justifying those who are disturbing someone, but that person is not going to get that changed, so it is time to find another solution.

 

[Sirach2]

Very wise discourse!
“You are Interfering with my holiness” is a classic come-back!
Thank you so much for sharing.

 

[0331]

‘Time to find another solution.’

If I were trying to pray quietly after Mass in the fellowship hall during coffee and donuts, and the chatter was upsetting me, I would be in the wrong. But we’re talking about people trying to pray after Holy Mass in a sacred space in front of a crucifix, an altar where the Sacrifice has just taken place, and in front of the reserved Body of Christ in the tabernacle.

The Mass has ended, go in peace. (But this doesn’t mean the space in which the Mass has taken place returns to a base of whatever we want it to be).

It’s not unreasonable to expect that sacred spaces be quiet, and spaces used for fellowship to be loud.

 

[prayerrider]

I’ve come to the conclusion that I’ll often have to pray the after-Mass prayers in my car. Or outside, in nice weather.

 

[prayerrider]

Blockquote
If I were trying to pray quietly after Mass in the fellowship hall during coffee and donuts, and the chatter was upsetting me, I would be in the wrong. But we’re talking about people trying to pray after Holy Mass in a sacred space in front of a crucifix, an altar where the Sacrifice has just taken place, and in front of the reserved Body of Christ in the tabernacle.

Blockquote

Very well said.
There doesn’t seem to be much concept of “sacred space” anymore, in some parishes. And man-made noise must intrude everywhere, and at all times.