Why the Crucifix

[jimkhong]

Good point. Sometimes I wonder if the contemporary Church is losing some of it’s treasure in order to be relevant. A Catholic family member told me that things like incense are becoming less common and only censing the altar and not during the Gospel procession.

I find it an interesting trend that while Western Catholicism is moving away from more ancient liturgical practices (at one point in UK, there were more charismatics in the Catholic Church than in Pentecostal churches), mainstream Protestant churches like Lutherans, Methodists, etc are increasingly adopting liturgical practices.

In the Catholic Church, I don’t think it is so much of changing to try to be relevant. We are just doing what Luther did centuries ago - bring worship to the masses instead of something done by the clergy and to be admired by the laity from afar. At the same time there is something to be said about imbuing the divine experience with awe. The problem is where is the balance.

Pre-Vatican II, the Catholic practice of bells and incense was not working with the little old ladies saying the rosary during mass because it is something they could identify with whereas the mass was something they couldn’t understand. Why bells & incense continued to work in Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches is something we need to figure out without reducing the Eastern Divine Liturgy to formulations.

The recent Catholic experiment to revert to more archaic form of English in the liturgy with more Gregorian-like hymns also had limited success. I think the truth is that there is no one size fits all. We are all living in different cultural setting with different experience and different backgrounds. Maybe, we could choose between various types of worship in a formulation that the local community find work best for them. As a Latin-Rite Catholic, I do appreciate the Byzantine liturgy when I am on retreat while at the same time would prefer more charismatic style when on pastoral work with young people.

Maybe, different liturgy practices (and all the accompanying paraphrenalia like the curcific) are like ingredients that we put together to get a filling meal. The ingredients could differ for different meals. Maybe, we need different ingredients for a healthy spiritual life just as we need a balanced diet. And we sometimes need a particular liturgy as our comfort food.

As long as we can learn how to manage the centrifugal forces that we see in the Anglican Communion today (no offense there, Aidan). Something to think about. The Church is a hospital for sinners and not a museum of saints.

So, what is the Lutheran experience?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

jimkhong;] I find it an interesting trend that while Western Catholicism is moving away from more ancient liturgical practices (at one point in UK, there were more charismatics in the Catholic Church than in Pentecostal churches), mainstream Protestant churches like Lutherans, Methodists, etc are increasingly adopting liturgical practices.

In the Catholic Church, I don’t think it is so much of changing to try to be relevant. We are just doing what Luther did centuries ago - bring worship to the masses instead of something done by the clergy and to be admired by the laity from afar. At the same time there is something to be said about imbuing the divine experience with awe. The problem is where is the balance.

Pre-Vatican II, the Catholic practice of bells and incense was not working with the little old ladies saying the rosary during mass because it is something they could identify with whereas the mass was something they couldn’t understand. Why bells & incense continued to work in Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches is something we need to figure out without reducing the Eastern Divine Liturgy to formulations.

The recent Catholic experiment to revert to more archaic form of English in the liturgy with more Gregorian-like hymns also had limited success. I think the truth is that there is no one size fits all. We are all living in different cultural setting with different experience and different backgrounds. Maybe, we could choose between various types of worship in a formulation that the local community find work best for them. As a Latin-Rite Catholic, I do appreciate the Byzantine liturgy when I am on retreat while at the same time would prefer more charismatic style when on pastoral work with young people.

Maybe, different liturgy practices (and all the accompanying paraphrenalia like the curcific) are like ingredients that we put together to get a filling meal. The ingredients could differ for different meals. Maybe, we need different ingredients for a healthy spiritual life just as we need a balanced diet. And we sometimes need a particular liturgy as our comfort food.

As long as we can learn how to manage the centrifugal forces that we see in the Anglican Communion today (no offense there, Aidan). Something to think about. The Church is a hospital for sinners and not a museum of saints.

So, what is the Lutheran experience?

The Lutheran experience is also many-faceted. European Lutherans seem to have maintained a strong Catholic foundation combined with contemporary music. The St Thomas Mass in Finland is a good example: lanaghan.com/thomas_mass.htm

Lutherans were strongly impacted by Vatican 2 and follow the practice of the Catholic Church. I recall as a young person that free-standing altars became common place so that the priest looked at the people. My own experience was shaped by liturgical worship and the ecumenical movement,

Some Lutherans prefer ‘praise bands’ while others like the chanted Mass. The issue of bringing more people into the church often is considered in what happens on Sundays.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Anyway, Aidan. All the prayers in your venture to bring Christ to the Anglican cross. And presumably a whole host of liturgical practices from the treasure trove of the ancient Church as well.

Thank you kind sir. Baby steps

 

[aidanbradypop]

Good point. Sometimes I wonder if the contemporary Church is losing some of it’s treasure in order to be relevant. A Catholic family member told me that things like incense are becoming less common and only censing the altar and not during the Gospel procession.

Incense plugs my nose and head so I am biased lol. At our Wed night Eucharist, we use incense. I am the Worship Leader so I sight right beside it. UGH lol However, I do enjoy it and it seems many others do as well. Our parish was very low church for about 15 years. Slowly we are coming out of that into more Anglo-Catholic and that makes me happy.

 

[jimkhong]

The Lutheran experience is also many-faceted. European Lutherans seem to have maintained a strong Catholic foundation combined with contemporary music. The St Thomas Mass in Finland is a good example: lanaghan.com/thomas_mass.htm

Lutherans were strongly impacted by Vatican 2 and follow the practice of the Catholic Church. I recall as a young person that free-standing altars became common place so that the priest looked at the people. My own experience was shaped by liturgical worship and the ecumenical movement,

Some Lutherans prefer ‘praise bands’ while others like the chanted Mass. The issue of bringing more people into the church often is considered in what happens on Sundays.

Thanks, the Lutheran Church seems as broad church as the Anglicans or even more so. In my country, there are two strands of Lutheranism. There is the Evangelical Lutheran Church under the Archbishop of Uppsala (largely ethnic Indians started by the Swedish mission) and the Lutheran Church in Malaysia (ethnic Chinese originaly affliated with ULCA). There was an attempt at a merger but the latter body did not have an episcopate. It was very strange to me.

I suspect the Indian Lutherans (from the Swedish mission) probably sees itself closer to Catholics than to their fellow Chinese Lutherans. The bishop has a similar position like ours and the liturgy conducted by a priest is similar whereas Chinese Lutherans seem to be more like Baptists to me, with pastors (especially if you ignore the ‘bishop’ title who is more supervisor than anything). I understand that Lutherans in US have merged unlike those in my country but how do you the two wings which looks even further apart than the Anglicans. At least the low church Anglicans accept the priesthood and the episcopate.

 

[andrewstx]

Incense plugs my nose and head so I am biased lol. At our Wed night Eucharist, we use incense. I am the Worship Leader so I sight right beside it. UGH lol However, I do enjoy it and it seems many others do as well. Our parish was very low church for about 15 years. Slowly we are coming out of that into more Anglo-Catholic and that makes me happy.

When I was a teenager in the Episcopal church we only had incense once a year, Christmas Eve midnight Mass. But a large number objected to it, they claimed allergies and asthma. This was in the 70s. As soon as they hit the narthex they all lit cigarettes. To me that completely canceled thier argument.

I’m not accusing you personally Aiden, it just brought up memories.

It seems that a parish will go along with a priest they have known and loved for years, but inside they still remain low church. The parish had a high church Rector from Con. who came to minister to Baptist Texas converts. He was there for 40 years and for years it was Morning prayer alternating with Mass. But he ended up with them having Mass every week, stations of the cross and a crucifix replaced the plain cross. But they still used incense only once a year.

 

[aidanbradypop]

When I was a teenager in the Episcopal church we only had incense once a year, Christmas Eve midnight Mass. But a large number objected to it, they claimed allergies and asthma. This was in the 70s. As soon as they hit the narthex they all lit cigarettes. To me that completely canceled thier argument.

I’m not accusing you personally Aiden, it just brought up memories.

It seems that a parish will go along with a priest they have known and loved for years, but inside they still remain low church. The parish had a high church Rector from Con. who came to minister to Baptist Texas converts. He was there for 40 years and for years it was Morning prayer alternating with Mass. But he ended up with them having Mass every week, stations of the cross and a crucifix replaced the plain cross. But they still used incense only once a year.

Hey Andrew…my name is Dustin and you even spelled Aidan wrong… Aidan/Brady are my sons

I am trying to get the crucifix back! Slowly I am making a difference I hope. The majority at our parish are former Roman Catholic or Lutheran. We have a few cradle Episcopalians. Our priest was raised Roman Catholic so he loves the crucifix as much as I do.

 

[andrewstx]

Hey Andrew…my name is Dustin and you even spelled Aidan wrong… Aidan/Brady are my sons

I am trying to get the crucifix back! Slowly I am making a difference I hope. The majority at our parish are former Roman Catholic or Lutheran. We have a few cradle Episcopalians. Our priest was raised Roman Catholic so he loves the crucifix as much as I do.

Sorry about the name mix-up Justin. I had a stroke and my mental abilities are often challenged, it was not personal.

I have moved away form there to a small town with no Orthodox or Episcopal church. But I understand that the new rector was originally from the Church of the Nazarene. So Anglo Catholic he’s not and not ex RC. The majority there are former Baptists and Methodists.

How fortunate you are to have a parish. I was confirmed in a small town mission which has since closed as have all the small town missions in the diocese.

I think it is very likely for your parish to get a crucifix, good luck.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Sorry about the name mix-up Justin. I had a stroke and my mental abilities are often challenged, it was not personal.

I have moved away form there to a small town with no Orthodox or Episcopal church. But I understand that the new rector was originally from the Church of the Nazarene. So Anglo Catholic he’s not and not ex RC. The majority there are former Baptists and Methodists.

How fortunate you are to have a parish. I was confirmed in a small town mission which has since closed as have all the small town missions in the diocese.

I think it is very likely for your parish to get a crucifix, good luck.

I had 5 strokes so I suffer with you friend!

Peace and love of Christ be always with you

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Thanks, the Lutheran Church seems as broad church as the Anglicans or even more so. In my country, there are two strands of Lutheranism. There is the Evangelical Lutheran Church under the Archbishop of Uppsala (largely ethnic Indians started by the Swedish mission) and the Lutheran Church in Malaysia (ethnic Chinese originaly affliated with ULCA). There was an attempt at a merger but the latter body did not have an episcopate. It was very strange to me.

I suspect the Indian Lutherans (from the Swedish mission) probably sees itself closer to Catholics than to their fellow Chinese Lutherans. The bishop has a similar position like ours and the liturgy conducted by a priest is similar whereas Chinese Lutherans seem to be more like Baptists to me, with pastors (especially if you ignore the ‘bishop’ title who is more supervisor than anything). I understand that Lutherans in US have merged unlike those in my country but how do you the two wings which looks even further apart than the Anglicans. At least the low church Anglicans accept the priesthood and the episcopate.

You seem to have a good grasp on Lutheranism, jimkhong

Episcopacy is viewed as a good form of church government and has historic precedence among Lutherans, but it is not required per the Augsburg Confession. Martin Luther’s dispute with the local bishops is nicely documented in the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogues.

Most Lutherans have embraced episcopacy/ Apostolic Succession since the Provoo Communion and Called to Common Mission that established full-communion with Anglicans/ Episcopalians.

 

[jimkhong]

You seem to have a good grasp on Lutheranism, jimkhong

Episcopacy is viewed as a good form of church government and has historic precedence among Lutherans, but it is not required per the Augsburg Confession. Martin Luther’s dispute with the local bishops is nicely documented in the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogues.

Most Lutherans have embraced episcopacy/ Apostolic Succession since the Provoo Communion and Called to Common Mission that established full-communion with Anglicans/ Episcopalians.

Good to know that. It is wonderful for various churches to come closer together in their practice. In truth, we were never that far apart in the first place. I first realised that in college when I met an Assyrian whose mother gave him a prayer mat with Our Lady of Perpetual Succor woven on it, complete with the Theotokos which was what I thought was the reason they broke away from us.

Protestants have been great in Church unions in the last century, especially with in US, Germany and India. I look forward to a union of all churches with priesthood and episcopate but (let me be heretical here) not on the triumphalist terms that some in the Vatican would like.

I thought among Lutherans, only the Swedes have apostolic succession. Interesting. Is it a concious decision church-wide or is it left to the individual bishop? Does the diocese then mark which bishop has it (that would mean that there is an acknowledgement that the link did break)? This would be necessary if you want a bishop with apostolic succession to be the consecrator.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Good to know that. It is wonderful for various churches to come closer together in their practice. In truth, we were never that far apart in the first place. I first realised that in college when I met an Assyrian whose mother gave him a prayer mat with Our Lady of Perpetual Succor woven on it, complete with the Theotokos which was what I thought was the reason they broke away from us.

Protestants have been great in Church unions in the last century, especially with in US, Germany and India. I look forward to a union of all churches with priesthood and episcopate but (let me be heretical here) not on the triumphalist terms that some in the Vatican would like.

I thought among Lutherans, only the Swedes have apostolic succession. Interesting. Is it a concious decision church-wide or is it left to the individual bishop? Does the diocese then mark which bishop has it (that would mean that there is an acknowledgement that the link did break)? This would be necessary if you want a bishop with apostolic succession to be the consecrator.

To my knowledge, there is no break in the line of bishops/ archbishops of the Church of Sweden. Sweden’s political influence/ empire included nearby Scandinavian countries [Norway, Finland, Denmark, Iceland, even parts of Russia], thus, episcopacy/ apostolic succession. The Baltic countries also have uninterrupted AS, so I understand. Immigration to America represented all of these northern European Lutherans who tended to associate by native languages. There were German congregations across the street from Swedish-speaking churches; both Lutheran. The American Protestant influence on Lutherans played a role in rejecting episcopacy as being “too catholic” in flavor of American independence/ democracy.

Now the overwhelming number of Lutherans follow episcopacy/ apostolic succession worldwide including North America.

 

[jimkhong]

To my knowledge, there is no break in the line of bishops/ archbishops of the Church of Sweden. Sweden’s political influence/ empire included nearby Scandinavian countries [Norway, Finland, Denmark, Iceland, even parts of Russia], thus, episcopacy/ apostolic succession. The Baltic countries also have uninterrupted AS, so I understand. Immigration to America represented all of these northern European Lutherans who tended to associate by native languages. There were German congregations across the street from Swedish-speaking churches; both Lutheran. The American Protestant influence on Lutherans played a role in rejecting episcopacy as being “too catholic” in flavor of American independence/ democracy.

Now the overwhelming number of Lutherans follow episcopacy/ apostolic succession worldwide including North America.

Thanks, the influence of American Protestants on the ULCA, unfortunately, was clear and we still see vestiges of it in my country. But I understand that the Church of Norway, for instance, allowed AS to lapse, possibly (I was told) out of disinterest and to distinguish themselves from their Swedish rulers. Only the Church of Sweden conciously maintained AS.

Is the AS in the Church of Norway a presumed sucession that all previous bishops were presumed to have AS whether conciously transmitted or not? Otherwise, they would have to ask the Swedes for AS and I don’t know how the relationship is today (yes, I know Norway is independent since 1910 but sometimes memories can be long).

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Thanks, the influence of American Protestants on the ULCA, unfortunately, was clear and we still see vestiges of it in my country. But I understand that the Church of Norway, for instance, allowed AS to lapse, possibly (I was told) out of disinterest and to distinguish themselves from their Swedish rulers. Only the Church of Sweden conciously maintained AS.

Is the AS in the Church of Norway a presumed secession that all previous bishops were presumed to have AS whether conciously transmitted or not? Otherwise, they would have to ask the Swedes for AS and I don’t know how the relationship is today (yes, I know Norway is independent since 1910 but sometimes memories can be long).

You are likely correct. I only became interested in Apostolic Succession when the ELCA and TEC entered into full communion. Even in the Church of Sweden, I believe there was some coercion on bishops to become Lutheran during the Reformation. Denmark went though a bit of iconoclasm. The Reformation had political impacts; kings/ monarchies declared countries Lutheran or Catholic. Then wars broke out among various Christians including Anabaptists. Not a very pretty picture of the Church Can you imagine killing other Christians because they only baptize adults?

 

[concretecamper]

dropbox.com/s/ml01mktx2rqi0vq/download.jpg

Once you understand the reality of the mass…an empty cross will not do.

 

[jimkhong]

You are likely correct. I only became interested in Apostolic Succession when the ELCA and TEC entered into full communion. Even in the Church of Sweden, I believe there was some coercion on bishops to become Lutheran during the Reformation. Denmark went though a bit of iconoclasm. The Reformation had political impacts; kings/ monarchies declared countries Lutheran or Catholic. Then wars broke out among various Christians including Anabaptists. Not a very pretty picture of the Church Can you imagine killing other Christians because they only baptize adults?

The rest of the world cannot understand it as well. In my country, where opening of churches require a long process of government (muslim-dominated) approval due to politcally-generated ethnic/religious faultines, government officials cannot understand why another request for a church popped up just after they approved one nearby.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The Crucifix is the symbol of Catholicism. As we go up for communion the altar cross guides us into the Real Presence.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Says who? lol

I believe the crucifix is the symbol of Christ’s death for the sake of all.