Why the fuss?

[Nate13]

nope I have all the hope in the world for atheists All it takes is a few words of faith at the hour of death for someone to open themselves to God’s mercy. I wouldn’t prescribe that plan however, but we believe in a merciful God and if you truly have a change of heart at that moment God will know. Committing the homosexual act could put a person in hell if they don’t repent which is what I would hope most Christians would mean by those words. God never gives up on you, so I would hope no Christian of sound conscience would.

 

[belorg]

nope I have all the hope in the world for atheists All it takes is a few words of faith at the hour of death for someone to open themselves to God’s mercy. I wouldn’t prescribe that plan however, but we believe in a merciful God and if you truly have a change of heart at that moment God will know. Committing the homosexual act could put a person in hell if they don’t repent which is what I would hope most Christians would mean by those words. God never gives up on you, so I would hope no Christian of sound conscience would.

Then I would advise homosexuals to have all the relations they want and just speak ‘a few words of faith’ at the hour of death and go to heaven, while another ones, out of fear for the Good God’s vengeance, led a lonely ,miserable celibatary life (not that celibacy necessarily equal misery, but for some people it does) and, just before being struck by lightning, for some reason started doubting their long held beliefs, will burn in hell forever.

 

[Nate13]

@belorg
haha this isn’t the lottery or a game. I wouldn’t recommend trying to “pull a fast one” on God. God sees every action and knows every one of your thoughts. Only he can perfectly judge you and know the truth on our hearts when we die. The pleasure of this world is not worth our time chasing after. See how many of the materially richest people on Earth would consider themselves “happy”.

 

[SteveGC]

Then I would advise homosexuals to have all the relations they want and just speak ‘a few words of faith’ at the hour of death and go to heaven, while another ones, out of fear for the Good God’s vengeance, led a lonely ,miserable celibatary life (not that celibacy necessarily equal misery, but for some people it does) and, just before being struck by lightning, for some reason started doubting their long held beliefs, will burn in hell forever.

This reveals a misunderstanding of both conversion and mortal sin.

“A few words of faith” at the hour of death will likely yield this from our Lord…“I never knew you; depart from me”.

And doubting one’s faith does not warrant condemnation. Ask St Thomas the Apostle.

Perhaps you knew all this, but were just speaking in jest?

 

[EasterJoy]

Then I would advise homosexuals to have all the relations they want and just speak ‘a few words of faith’ at the hour of death and go to heaven, while another ones, out of fear for the Good God’s vengeance, led a lonely ,miserable celibatary life (not that celibacy necessarily equal misery, but for some people it does) and, just before being struck by lightning, for some reason started doubting their long held beliefs, will burn in hell forever.

This reveals a misunderstanding of both conversion and mortal sin.

“A few words of faith” at the hour of death will likely yield this from our Lord…“I never knew you; depart from me”.

And doubting one’s faith does not warrant condemnation. Ask St Thomas the Apostle.

Perhaps you knew all this, but were just speaking in jest?

belorg might want to consider that irony is perhaps not his long suit.

 

[EasterJoy]

This post was made to another thread on the political question of a Catholic’s responsibilites with regards to the civil institution of homosexual marriage. The link is to a document by John Paul II reiterating the Church’s stand. It is an excellent synopsis:

If you do not understand why someone would be opposed, I would highly recommend reading the CDF’s statement: Considerations regarding proposals to give legal recognition to unions between homosexual persons.

Pay careful attention to Section III: Arguments from Reason Against Legal Recognition of Homosezual Unions. This is not a religious issue.

 

[belorg]

@belorg
haha this isn’t the lottery or a game. I wouldn’t recommend trying to “pull a fast one” on God. God sees every action and knows every one of your thoughts. Only he can perfectly judge you and know the truth on our hearts when we die. The pleasure of this world is not worth our time chasing after. See how many of the materially richest people on Earth would consider themselves “happy”.

Well, Nate I was you who said that ‘a few words of faith at the hour of death’ suffice, and now you are saying it isn’t true. Consistency, my friend?

 

[belorg]

This reveals a misunderstanding of both conversion and mortal sin.

“A few words of faith” at the hour of death will likely yield this from our Lord…“I never knew you; depart from me”.

Not according to Nate.

And doubting one’s faith does not warrant condemnation. Ask St Thomas the Apostle.

Who was lucky enough not to die immedaitley after he had doubted his faith.

Perhaps you knew all this, but were just speaking in jest?

Actually I find this whole idea of people being cast into hell forever so disgusting that jesting about it is the only way not to get furious with the people who are responsible for this delusion. But then I think, some of them actually believe this and the first words coming to my mouth are “Lord forgive them, because they don’t know what they are doing”.

 

[EasterJoy]

Actually I find this whole idea of people being cast into hell forever so disgusting that jesting about it is the only way not to get furious with the people who are responsible for this delusion. But then I think, some of them actually believe this and the first words coming to my mouth are “Lord forgive them, because they don’t know what they are doing”.

Well, for an atheist, that’s a very good start. It might comfort you a bit to realize that the Church teaches particularly that it is the person’s choice that casts them out of happiness. It is the kind of natural cause-and-effect that most atheists I have ever met accept as a matter of course. “Choose this end, choose that effect. Extrapolate that effect out indefinitely, this is where you get.”

From the Catechism:

IV. Hell

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617

**1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:**619

Father, accept this offering

from your whole family.

Grant us your peace in this life,

save us from final damnation,

and count us among those you have chosen.620

 

[SteveGC]

Not according to Nate.

I see. I didn’t realize you were quoting him. That idea coming from an atheist triggered my response. That same idea coming from a Catholic would naturally trigger a supposition that what was meant was more than mere utterance of words as if it were an escapist formula. Nate would probably tell you that the “few words” would have to accompany true conversion of heart.

Who was lucky enough not to die immedaitley after he had doubted his faith.

True, the Gospels don’t specifically state whether Thomas’ soul lost the state of saving grace in that doubtful moment, and had to reconcile to recover it. But the Church, of which he was one of the original leaders, teaches that involuntary doubt, which is arguably what Thomas possessed in those moments, is not sinful in and of itself.

Actually I find this whole idea of people being cast into hell forever so disgusting that jesting about it is the only way not to get furious with the people who are responsible for this delusion. But then I think, some of them actually believe this and the first words coming to my mouth are “Lord forgive them, because they don’t know what they are doing”.

On the one hand, you summon the Lord for forgiveness, and in the same breath, obstinately refuse to believe in truths that He Himself revealed to mankind. Hard to understand your position. Of course, it may be that you are having difficulty understanding why some people’s eternal destination will be Hell, and how that fate is decided. “Cast into hell” is not nearly as accurate an understanding as is “choosing to reject God now and forever”. No one goes to hell on accident, nor on a technicality.

 

[belorg]

I see. I didn’t realize you were quoting him. That idea coming from an atheist triggered my response. That same idea coming from a Catholic would naturally trigger a supposition that what was meant was more than mere utterance of words as if it were an escapist formula. Nate would probably tell you that the “few words” would have to accompany true conversion of heart.

Of course, but the fact remains that a homosexual can enjoy his sexuality all his life, as long as, at the hour of death, he truly feels sorry. Nate seems to think that at the hour of death, mos ‘sinners’ repent (even atheists like myself), so I suppose that also counts for married homosexuals.
And then one catholic holosexual, having struggled all his life not to sin, meets one of his acquantances who live a life of sin in heaven.

True, the Gospels don’t specifically state whether Thomas’ soul lost the state of saving grace in that doubtful moment, and had to reconcile to recover it. But the Church, of which he was one of the original leaders, teaches that involuntary doubt, which is arguably what Thomas possessed in those moments, is not sinful in and of itself.

But if one remains in involuntary doubt, according to the wise men of the Church, one ‘chooses’ hell.
Now, perosnally I am in ‘involuntary certainty’ that God does not exist, so that is not sinsful in and out of itself either. Yet the same ‘wise men’ maintain that I choose hell.

On the one hand, you summon the Lord for forgiveness, and in the same breath, obstinately refuse to believe in truths that He Himself revealed to mankind.

I knew I should have added a smiley.

Hard to understand your position. Of course, it may be that you are having difficulty understanding why some people’s eternal destination will be Hell, and how that fate is decided. “Cast into hell” is not nearly as accurate an understanding as is “choosing to reject God now and forever”. No one goes to hell on accident, nor on a technicality.

That’s a relief so I won’t go to hell after all, because, as I said, my lack of faith is involuntary.

 

[belorg]

Well, for an atheist, that’s a very good start. It might comfort you a bit to realize that the Church teaches particularly that it is the person’s choice that casts them out of happiness. It is the kind of natural cause-and-effect that most atheists I have ever met accept as a matter of course. “Choose this end, choose that effect. Extrapolate that effect out indefinitely, this is where you get.”

Your honour, it’s not my fault that he is dead, I said,“Give me your money or die”, and he didn’t give me his money.
So it was his own choice, wasn’t it?

And the accused walked away a free man.

 

[ahs]

Your honour, it’s not my fault that he is dead, I said,“Give me your money or die”, and he didn’t give me his money.
So it was his own choice, wasn’t it?

And the accused walked away a free man.

No, because the accused perceivably caused the other person’s death. Also, God does not demand anything from us as the accused had demanded. A better analogy would be:

Your honour, it’s not my fault that he is dead, I said, “Go up the path less traveled to safety because the easier path leads to a lake of fire.” He chose to go on the easy path anyway and fell into the lake of fire. It was his own choice, wasn’t it?

 

[belorg]

No, because the accused perceivably caused the other person’s death. Also, God does not demand anything from us as the accused had demanded. A better analogy would be:

Yes, of course, He demands. God demands love. Which is , of course already a huge contradcition.

Your analogy fails, because both the paths and the lake of fire were created by the accused, so if my accused is guilty, so is yours.
Anyway, even if he didn’t create it, if I know the path you are going to take is leading to a lake of fire, I must do everything in my power to prevent you from running into the fire. If I don’t, I am still guilty.

 

[SteveGC]

Of course, but the fact remains that a homosexual can enjoy his sexuality all his life, as long as, at the hour of death, he truly feels sorry.

Perhaps, but to willfully live in sin with the intent to wait until one’s deathbed for reconciliation is not only spiritually hazardous, but also arguably insincere and revealing of an overly legalistic view of salvation at the expense of true conversion. Certainly, it may turn out that a homosexual engaged in sinful sexual acts all his life and then ended up repenting at the hour of death…but it is a retrospective notion. To have forethought of such a “plan” would likely nullify the future “conversion”. God knows the heart, and will not be deceived through any legalisms.

Nate seems to think that at the hour of death, mos ‘sinners’ repent (even atheists like myself), so I suppose that also counts for married homosexuals.
And then one catholic holosexual, having struggled all his life not to sin, meets one of his acquantances who live a life of sin in heaven.

You lost me here.

But if one remains in involuntary doubt, according to the wise men of the Church, one ‘chooses’ hell.

Could you point me to the teaching that says it is mortal sin to remain in involuntary doubt? At best, one must deliberately cultivate this doubt for it to lead to a lack of saving grace.

Now, perosnally I am in ‘involuntary certainty’ that God does not exist, so that is not sinsful in and out of itself either. Yet the same ‘wise men’ maintain that I choose hell.

Nice try, LOL. Perhaps invincibly ignorant, but your certainty of disbelief is not involuntary. Actually, you likely have involuntary doubt like Thomas. That seems to fit most atheists, who await empirical evidence of God’s existence.

I knew I should have added a smiley.

LOL

 

[SteveGC]

Yes, of course, He demands. God demands love. Which is , of course already a huge contradcition.

Your analogy fails, because both the paths and the lake of fire were created by the accused, so if my accused is guilty, so is yours.
Anyway, even if he didn’t create it, if I know the path you are going to take is leading to a lake of fire, I must do everything in my power to prevent you from running into the fire. If I don’t, I am still guilty.

You only think God “demands” anything because of an inverted view of Christianity…meaning, you look at it in terms of what’s ultimately in it for you, as opposed to a realization that you were created by a loving Creator. When you do that, the focus becomes not on a relationship with God, but with the existence of heaven or hell, and what is asked of your life to achieve the former and avoid the latter. When you think only in these terms, then “God demands” becomes a plausible idea, since you’re seeking only your own happiness at the exclusion of seeing who you really are and what you were created for.

IOW, God doesn’t demand love. He desires it, but does not demand it. Sure, you can say He demands it IF you want to focus only on what will keep you out of hell. But such an exclusive focus is not Christian. The horse pulling the cart is a submission and acknowledgement that you are not here on accident, but by divine design, and are here to be in union with the One who created you.

 

[belorg]

Nice try, LOL.

Actually, Steve, this was not meant to be funny.

Perhaps invincibly ignorant, but your certainty of disbelief is not involuntary.

Yes it is. I really would like to be able to believe in Christianity, but it isn’t possible for me. Maybe due to my ignornace, but then, why didn’t God make me as smart as you are? I ddi not make myself, so, yes, my certainty is involuntary.

Actually, you likely have involuntary doubt like Thomas. That seems to fit most atheists, who await empirical evidence of God’s existence.

No, I don’t await empirical evindence for God’s existence, because the Christian God is logically impossible. That’s what I involuntary believe. Maybe due to my ignorance, but, as I said, that isn’t my fault.

 

[belorg]

You only think God “demands” anything because of an inverted view of Christianity…meaning, you look at it in terms of what’s ultimately in it for you, as opposed to a realization that you were created by a loving Creator.

If I am created by a loving creator, Steve, then there is not a single chance I will go to hell.
Perfect love isn’t conditional, and if God sends people to hell, or even creates or tolreates anything like hell, His love isn’t perfect.

IOW, God doesn’t demand love. He desires it, but does not demand it. Sure, you can say He demands it IF you want to focus only on what will keep you out of hell. But such an exclusive focus is not Christian. The horse pulling the cart is a submission and acknowledgement that you are not here on accident, but by divine design, and are here to be in union with the One who created you.

If I am here to be in union with the One who created me, then I will be in union with the One who created me.

 

[ahs]

If I am created by a loving creator, Steve, then there is not a single chance I will go to hell.
Perfect love isn’t conditional, and if God sends people to hell, or even creates or tolreates anything like hell, His love isn’t perfect.

Perfect love also will not force you to accept God and His Law. You are free to reject Him, and in doing so, free to live a life that leads to Hell. All humans are predisposed to Hell because of original sin. God, in His perfect love for us, gave us a means by which to avoid Hell. (That “means” is Jesus Christ and living a life according to Christ and according to God’s Natural Law through the Church that Christ established). In His perfect love, God allows us to choose to live according to His means, or to reject it. Rejecting it leads to Hell. Accepting it leads to Heaven.

Perfect love goes hand-in-hand with perfect justice.

If I am here to be in union with the One who created me, then I will be in union with the One who created me.

…unless you choose otherwise. If you choose a life centered on your own desires, and those desires are not in conformity with those of the One who created you, you are separating yourself from the One who created you.

 

[Elizabeth502]

If I am created by a loving creator, Steve, then there is not a single chance I will go to hell.
Perfect love isn’t conditional, and if God sends people to hell, or even creates or tolreates anything like hell, His love isn’t perfect.

Wrong. His love is both unconditional and perfect. He respects fully our freedom and integrity – freedom to choose to reject Him or accept Him. We send ourselves to Hell, or prepare ourselves for Heaven. It’s that simple. He longs to share His divine life with us, but will never force us, or the relationship would be one of enslavement, not love.

Have a nice day.