Why the fuss?

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Are you serious???
You’re telling me that you do not see how transparently a child born into this world has a natural right to an actual father and an actual mother – the ones, who, by copulating, took responsibility for that child’s existence, even before that child was conceived? This is what your Church believes, by the way.
My question is serious, but was not about a right to have a mother and a father. I am only asking about the concept of the child’s rights superseding the parents’ rights in Catholic theology. (I have never heard about conflicting rights between children and parents.) Even in regards to this thread, I’m not sure exactly what the rights of the parents are that the a child might be abrogating.

As far as the above response goes… are you saying that children likewise shouldn’t be given up for adoption, according to the Church?

Charitable responses are appreciated.
 
Nevermind, after review I think I misread the context of your post. You are saying the rights of a child to have a mother and father supersede the rights that someone may have to freedom of religion.

Sorry.
 
So how far do we take this? If a homosexual couple raising a child is ALWAYS intrinsically evil and NEVER acceptable under ANYcircumstances as a lesser evil, then let’s take it to the extreme shall we? A child is dying of exposure in an African village and a homosexual couple walks by and offers to take the child in and adopt him. If I am understanding this correctly, Jesus would want us to say “No. Please move along. This child has a right to a mother and a father.” And when the couple says, “This child is dying right here with nobody who will step up and save him!” We are to say,“Then we need to work on eventually creating a culture in which people don’t leave kids in a field to die of exposure, but yeah, the kids dying in fields right now are goners. Just leave that boy where he is.”

This is what we are saying here?
…And this is where I get stuck. At this point it seems like “the law” becomes more important than the human person herself. 😦
 
Can you explain more about children’s rights superseding parents’ rights in general (not necessarily related to this issue)? I’m having a hard time imagining what this means.
You could just look at it as adults being the responsible caretakers of their children, until the children grow up and take their turn to care for their parents in the vulnerability of their old age. It is a mutual caring in which the most vulnerable are the cared for, and not the powerful getting what they want. Otherwise, children become a kind of chattel, a “possession” or a type of “life enhancement.”
 
…And this is where I get stuck. At this point it seems like “the law” becomes more important than the human person herself. 😦
Yes, this is my problem too. And everything in the Bible about Jesus seems to strongly go against this legalistic kind of thinking. Jesus was nothing if not practical and was more about taking care of people than staunchly obeying the letter of the law.
 
So how far do we take this? If a homosexual couple raising a child is ALWAYS intrinsically evil and NEVER acceptable under ANYcircumstances as a lesser evil, then let’s take it to the extreme shall we? A child is dying of exposure in an African village and a homosexual couple walks by and offers to take the child in and adopt him. If I am understanding this correctly, Jesus would want us to say “No. Please move along. This child has a right to a mother and a father.” And when the couple says, “This child is dying right here with nobody who will step up and save him!” We are to say,“Then we need to work on eventually creating a culture in which people don’t leave kids in a field to die of exposure, but yeah, the kids dying in fields right now are goners. Just leave that boy where he is.”

This is what we are saying here?
I’m not arguing that orphans ought to be allowed to die before they’re given homes with adults who have a morally problematic backgrounds, but do you really think your proposed scenario is fair?

Let me ask you this:

What would that the couple say if Jesus asked if they would rather let the child die than to care for him, if it meant giving up their illicit relationship? If the child’s father or mother had to leave his or her spouse behind in order to save the child’s life, certainly natural parents would part rather than see their child die. People who consider the child as an external accoutrement for their relationship, OTOH, wouldn’t do that, would they?

What about drug dealing and prostitution? Should we not do background checks on adoptive parents at all, because “would we let the child die rather than be adopted by a drug dealer or a prostitute?” How about Oliver Twist? Was he so badly off with Fagan?
 
Thanks, that is very clear and to the point. It seems as though homosexuality has already been normalized. So does it come down to a matter of degree? Isn’t the current marriage issue really just a symptom of something that already exists?
Yes, it is a matter of degree. And this tends to be the polarizing issue among Catholics regarding tolerance for the inclusion of same sex couples into the institution of marriage. Some argue as you suggest here…that homosexuality is already normalized, so why not just give them some equality in the law? And I see the argument, but it falls short in two areas…
  1. it does not give needed emphasis on marriage according to U.S. law, and why it is not fundamentally separate from sacramental marriage in terms of how it was originally defined. Our modern society, through it’s moral decay, has brought about a slowly evolving but significantly disordered concept of marriage, to the point where I personally wish it were never brought into the legal system in the first place. But, it was originally done to support and foster familial growth and encourage strong societal values. It was never conceived by the founding fathers of this country as something remotely or potentially inclusive of same sex couples. So, already “normal” or not, profaning the institution of marriage in this way is not acceptable.
and 2), it fails to see just how significantly the legalization of ANYTHING can shape and mold society on the whole. The examples are plentiful. Just look at abortion. Now imagine meth being legal. Theft. …and on and on… The law can bring out the best, and the worst in people. And it does normalize behavior, especially over the long term. And we have to see with eyes that stretch well beyond on our own personal lifetimes. What kind of society are we leaving future generations by our votes and activism today?
Thank you and Elizabeth502 for giving me a clearer understanding of this issue. It does help.
You’re quite welcome. We’re all learning here, to one degree or another. I’m not here to win an argument so much as to share my perspective and learn from other perspectives.
 
Honestly, it doesn’t have to be a rational scenario. Theologically, if it is always wrong for a homosexual couple to raise a child, then it is always wrong no matter the scenario.
The Church doesn’t have a teaching on whether or not a homosexual couple can raise a child. The Church teaches that it is gravely sinful to act on homosexual temptations, and sinful to some lesser degree to engage in a lifestyle that is suggestive or otherwise conducive to bringing about these temptations…and finally, that it is sinful to some degree to support societal legislation which works to normalize this lifestyle. You keep trying to work an end-around by bringing in the notion of adoption, somehow trying to claim that the Church has moral teaching on it specifically, when She doesn’t. It’s a strawman that seems to seek to gain ground on the cause of inclusion by drawing the focus away from inherently sinful behaviors, appealing to human sensitivity toward helpless children in life-or-death scenarios.
This is what the Churh teaches about contraception is it not? That even if any child conceived will certainly die, contraception is never permissible. Is that the teaching here as well?
Again, a twisting of moral teaching, using an irrational scenario. Name any rational scenario wherein there is certainty of death of a child, before it conceived.
 
…And this is where I get stuck. At this point it seems like “the law” becomes more important than the human person herself. 😦
This, though, is a failure to understand the nature of personhood in Catholic philosophy and the nature of ancient Divine Law in the Mosaic tradition which became assimilated into Christianity, during and after Jesus’ ministry. The law, in ancient Judaism, was a vehicle for personal freedom and freedom as a people, as it bound its adherents to God, thorugh covenant. Ancient Jews perceived and experienced their freedom through obedience to God (whom they also saw as assisting political freedom). The Law was gift, just as it is today in Judaism.

Psalm 119:45:
I will walk in freedom, for I have devoted myself to your commandments.
It is disobedience to God’s commands which brings about its own enslavement; this is a repeated theme in Hebrew scriptures.

Psalm 107:
11 because they rebelled against God’s commands
and despised the plans of the Most High.
12 So he subjected them to bitter labor;
they stumbled, and there was no one to help.
13 Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble,
and he saved them from their distress.
14 He brought them out of darkness, the utter darkness,
and broke away their chains.
15 Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for humankind,
16 for he breaks down gates of bronze
and cuts through bars of iron.
Jesus on freedom:
John 8:
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 ***Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” ***
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37
We are most free when we are most obedient to God’s commands.
 
Again, a twisting of moral teaching, using an irrational scenario. Name any rational scenario wherein there is certainty of death of a child, before it conceived.
Maybe if the mother has AIDS? 🤷
 
Maybe if the mother has AIDS? 🤷
AIDS doesn’t even carry with it certainty of death for the mother, much less her unconceived child.

Not that the Church teaches that it is responsible for a woman so diagnosed to conceive a child, but the notion of “certainty of death” to work an end-around to support contraception is as pointless as arguing about adoption issues to support legalized homosexual marriage.
 
Well it really doesn’t matter anyway since no contraception is 100%. If you have sex while say on medication which is sure to make the child unable to live after birth, even with birth control you’re taking a risk of conception. So if the objective is to prevent pregnancy at all costs, abstinence is really the only moral choice.
 
Yes, it is a matter of degree. And this tends to be the polarizing issue among Catholics regarding tolerance for the inclusion of same sex couples into the institution of marriage. Some argue as you suggest here…that homosexuality is already normalized, so why not just give them some equality in the law? And I see the argument, but it falls short in two areas…
  1. it does not give needed emphasis on marriage according to U.S. law, and why it is not fundamentally separate from sacramental marriage in terms of how it was originally defined. Our modern society, through it’s moral decay, has brought about a slowly evolving but significantly disordered concept of marriage, to the point where I personally wish it were never brought into the legal system in the first place. But, it was originally done to support and foster familial growth and encourage strong societal values. It was never conceived by the founding fathers of this country as something remotely or potentially inclusive of same sex couples. So, already “normal” or not, profaning the institution of marriage in this way is not acceptable.
and 2), it fails to see just how significantly the legalization of ANYTHING can shape and mold society on the whole. The examples are plentiful. Just look at abortion. Now imagine meth being legal. Theft. …and on and on… The law can bring out the best, and the worst in people. And it does normalize behavior, especially over the long term. And we have to see with eyes that stretch well beyond on our own personal lifetimes. What kind of society are we leaving future generations by our votes and activism today?
You’re quite welcome. We’re all learning here, to one degree or another. I’m not here to win an argument so much as to share my perspective and learn from other perspectives.
I agree with you on your points. There is another thing I’ve been thinking about: how this country dealt with the legality of polygamy of the original LDS movement, before it finally abandoned the idea. It seems to be somewhat similar with the difference being cultural acceptance. But I have to admit, I don’t know that much about it.
 
I’m not arguing that orphans ought to be allowed to die before they’re given homes with adults who have a morally problematic backgrounds, but do you really think your proposed scenario is fair?

Let me ask you this:

What would that the couple say if Jesus asked if they would rather let the child die than to care for him, if it meant giving up their illicit relationship? If the child’s father or mother had to leave his or her spouse behind in order to save the child’s life, certainly natural parents would part rather than see their child die. People who consider the child as an external accoutrement for their relationship, OTOH, wouldn’t do that, would they?

What about drug dealing and prostitution? Should we not do background checks on adoptive parents at all, because “would we let the child die rather than be adopted by a drug dealer or a prostitute?” How about Oliver Twist? Was he so badly off with Fagan?
Well if it were any random child dying in a field, then I think ANY couple would not want to part for the rest of their lives over them. This has nothing to do with viewing the child as an “accoutrement”, but with the attachment that comes with living with and caring for a child day in and day out. Of COURSE the natural biological parents of the child should feel this attachment, though clearly, they often do not or we wouldn’t have adoption. Your example is one against ALL adoption in general, not specifically homosexual adoption. Once these people take a child into their home and integrate it into a part of their families, I am sure that they love that child just as much as we love our own children and would gladly separate to save him.

Also, I certainly do not view homosexuality on the same level as the deliberate choice to be a drug dealer or a prostitute. Not only is the mentality of the sinner completely different, but so is the negative outcome for others. Homosexuality is more along the lines of masturbation. Would you prevent someone from adopting just because they view masturbation as a natural part of sexuality or growing up? I know LOTS of parents and doctors who tell their kids/patients that it is completely normal and natural to have these feelings and to yes, do the “m word” as a teenager and that they shouldn’t feel guilty or ashamed about it. Should these people not be allowed to adopt? What about people who don’t attend church on Sunday? How many people do we exclude from the process before we end up with only a few devout Catholics to do the adopting? Catholics who, by the way, probably want NOTHING to do with adoption because they already have upwards of 5 kids of their own to take care of if they are not contracepting and “open to life”?
 
AIDS doesn’t even carry with it certainty of death for the mother, much less her unconceived child.

Not that the Church teaches that it is responsible for a woman so diagnosed to conceive a child, but the notion of “certainty of death” to work an end-around to support contraception is as pointless as arguing about adoption issues to support legalized homosexual marriage.
There are plenty of scenarios where the death of a child conceived is about as certain as it can get. A starving mother in Africa, if she is even able to carry a baby to term (it takes 300 extra calories a day to support a pregnancy) without dying herself, will certainly not be able to consume the 500 EXTRA calories amday required for breastfeeding an infant, will die herself of starvation and then take the baby along with her. These scenarios are far from unrealistic and happen all the time.
 
There are plenty of scenarios where the death of a child conceived is about as certain as it can get. A starving mother in Africa, if she is even able to carry a baby to term (it takes 300 extra calories a day to support a pregnancy) without dying herself, will certainly not be able to consume the 500 EXTRA calories amday required for breastfeeding an infant, will die herself of starvation and then take the baby along with her. These scenarios are far from unrealistic and happen all the time.
Why does this scenario = contraception is ok? I believe the success of teaching abstinence and monogamous relationships has proven itself to be a much more effective way of combating the problems in Africa. You saying that your scenario provides support for contraception is comparable to me telling my doctor that I need pain pills for the pain my broken foot is causing me but not mentioning the fact that I still choose to jump on the treadmill everyday and run… Wouldn’t the real solution be to stop running on the treadmill every morning with my broken foot? Wouldn’t the real solution be to start promoting abstinence and monogamous relationships that would allow people to understand sex and its purpose? And wouldn’t handing them condoms while telling them these things send a mixed message? It’s like telling a robber how to break into a house and then telling him not to break into the house.
 
Why does this scenario = contraception is ok? I believe the success of teaching abstinence and monogamous relationships has proven itself to be a much more effective way of combating the problems in Africa. You saying that your scenario provides support for contraception is comparable to me telling my doctor that I need pain pills for the pain my broken foot is causing me but not mentioning the fact that I still choose to jump on the treadmill everyday and run… Wouldn’t the real solution be to stop running on the treadmill every morning with my broken foot? Wouldn’t the real solution be to start promoting abstinence and monogamous relationships that would allow people to understand sex and its purpose? And wouldn’t handing them condoms while telling them these things send a mixed message? It’s like telling a robber how to break into a house and then telling him not to break into the house.
Not trying to derail the thread here, I was just wondering if the gay adoption thing is AS absolute as the contraception thing, or if there are circumstances under which it would be permissible for the sake of the child, like to save a life.

Also, in areas such as these, women generally have absolutely no choice whether or not to have sex, be it with their husbands or some random stranger. About 50% of South-African women will be raped in their lifetimes by a stranger, to say nothing of the demands a husband makes for sex that she cannot refuse. It’s not a matter of abstinence or monogamy on her part. She has no choice. I’m sure these women would LOVE to abstain from sex.
 
There are plenty of scenarios where the death of a child conceived is about as certain as it can get. A starving mother in Africa, if she is even able to carry a baby to term (it takes 300 extra calories a day to support a pregnancy) without dying herself, will certainly not be able to consume the 500 EXTRA calories amday required for breastfeeding an infant, will die herself of starvation and then take the baby along with her. These scenarios are far from unrealistic and happen all the time.
Let’s clear the air here.

The Church indeed teaches that contraception is never permissible, regardless of any scenario. The Church also teaches that it can be morally irresponsible to engage in the marital conjugal act when one or both persons have a known life threatening disease that is likely to be transmitted to a conceived child. Note that contraception is never the solution in these instances…abstinence is.

Your scenario above is somewhat similar, albeit with some differences. It is likely morally irresponsible for a starving mother in Africa, and irresponsible for any husband of this woman, to engage in the conjugal act. Why is it merely “likely” irresponsible? Because of varying degrees of certitude of her medical condition during pregnancy and her capacity to adequately support the life of the child after birth. What is absolutely morally irresponsible, and more importantly, gravely sinful, is for this woman and her husband to artificially contracept. The degree of certitude of danger for the woman and/or of the capacity to adequately support the child would dictate the utilization of only two choices for this African couple…either 1) abstain, or 2) responsibly utilize natural means to space children until such time that there is adequate certainty of the capacity to properly support a child.

Contraception never fits into the equation…ever. And obviously, nor does abortion.

Likewise…homosexual marriage never fits into the equation of how to address the dilemma of a dying child in Africa. There is no teaching from Jesus remotely suggestive that a gravely sinful act can be justified to the end of accomplishing a highly righteous act. I’ve explained why homosexual marriage is gravely sinful on multiple levels.

Yet certainly, Jesus would also not have a homosexual couple walk past a dying child because they can’t be legally married, and hence, cannot adopt. No, obviously you help the child. You do whatever you can while remaining obedient to moral teaching. And there is a great many things that can be done in that regard. Perhaps adoption of this child by two caring people might be the best thing for the child in terms of living a healthy, pain-free life in the long term…but it is nowhere near the only viable solution for that, and it certainly isn’t the only solution for addressing the actual scenario you put forth, which is an immediate need for medical attention for this child.

The ultimate solution lies in what we must do to prevent the child from being abandoned to die in the first place. Yes, in the meantime, we have this dying child in front of us, and we certainly don’t abandon that immediate necessity just because we’re seeking solutions which address the original causes. Nevertheless, will some children die because homosexuals can’t adopt as couples? I don’t know. Perhaps. Will some children struggle in life because there is no legal way for them to come into a homosexual home? Probably. Did I personally struggle in many ways because my mother couldn’t remarry after getting divorced from my father? Yep. Should she have immorally remarried so that I can have some semblance of a good father in our home. Nope.

Society does dreadful things, from abandoning a child or allowing a child to starve, to stripping apart a family, splitting up two siblings into separate single-parent homes. Not that these are comparable on a scale of depravity - certainly the former is much more grievous. But the fact remains that we don’t address dreadful realities in society with deadly sinful acts. We suffer through these realities, and seek moral, long-term solutions while morally addressing immediate life-and-death issues.
 
Not trying to derail the thread here, I was just wondering if the gay adoption thing is AS absolute as the contraception thing, or if there are circumstances under which it would be permissible for the sake of the child, like to save a life.
Gay adoption is not an absolute anything, in terms of Church teaching. You won’t find anything addressing it in those terms. It is a tangential result of having allowed homosexual marriage, which condones and normalizes homosexual sexual acts, which is the absolute immoral action. Just as absolutely immoral as contraception. What I’ve been trying to explain to you is that you have to stop expanding this into gay adoption…long before you get to that point, you’ve allowed grievous sin to take place. Gay adoption is a ramification of that absolute immorality, it is not the absolute immorality itself.
Also, in areas such as these, women generally have absolutely no choice whether or not to have sex, be it with their husbands or some random stranger. About 50% of South-African women will be raped in their lifetimes by a stranger, to say nothing of the demands a husband makes for sex that she cannot refuse. It’s not a matter of abstinence or monogamy on her part. She has no choice. I’m sure these women would LOVE to abstain from sex.
While dreadfully unfortunate for these women, as dreadful as it is for ANY woman in ANY country to be raped, contraception and/or abortion is never justified as a solution to address it. Not ever.

It falls right in line with my response above, regarding dying, abandoned children.
 
Well if it were any random child dying in a field, then I think ANY couple would not want to part for the rest of their lives over them. This has nothing to do with viewing the child as an “accoutrement”, but with the attachment that comes with living with and caring for a child day in and day out. Of COURSE the natural biological parents of the child should feel this attachment, though clearly, they often do not or we wouldn’t have adoption. Your example is one against ALL adoption in general, not specifically homosexual adoption. Once these people take a child into their home and integrate it into a part of their families, I am sure that they love that child just as much as we love our own children and would gladly separate to save him.

Also, I certainly do not view homosexuality on the same level as the deliberate choice to be a drug dealer or a prostitute. Not only is the mentality of the sinner completely different, but so is the negative outcome for others. Homosexuality is more along the lines of masturbation. Would you prevent someone from adopting just because they view masturbation as a natural part of sexuality or growing up? I know LOTS of parents and doctors who tell their kids/patients that it is completely normal and natural to have these feelings and to yes, do the “m word” as a teenager and that they shouldn’t feel guilty or ashamed about it. Should these people not be allowed to adopt? What about people who don’t attend church on Sunday? How many people do we exclude from the process before we end up with only a few devout Catholics to do the adopting? Catholics who, by the way, probably want NOTHING to do with adoption because they already have upwards of 5 kids of their own to take care of if they are not contracepting and “open to life”?
Again, talking about whether someone with moral problems in their background can adopt is a different kettle of fish than deciding to expand the definition of marriage in order to encode a particular moral fault into the institution. I am saying that it is a red herring to say that gays are pressing for marriage because they’re so concerned that orphans aren’t getting homes. That is malarky, and even if it weren’t, re-defining marriage wouldn’t address the problem.

It is also a bit disingenuous to ask who should be allowed to adopt and to write the standards as if it must be preferable to let a child die rather than to let this person adopt them in order to exclude someone as an adoptive parent. You’d be down to excluding only people who neglect, beat, or prostitute their own children. Even in that case, could you then argue that every other arrangement in which children might be adopted should not only be allowed but rather given not only an equal status with marriage but an identical status? That’s nuts!

A convent can raise children, but nuns aren’t married. If the nuns wanted their convents to be included in the definition of a civil marriage, they shouldn’t get it. Even a centuries-old convent of women who have done nothing but sacrifice their lives to others and avoid sin should not have marriage re-defined to include them because their shared life, as entirely praiseworthy, tried and true and entirely dignified as it is, is not a marriage. If there are advantages of marriage that would help nuns to run better orphanages for childless children, that’s something else again. Give them those advantages. Don’t pretend that they’re all second-class citizens until the state duly announces that they’re all married!

Likewise, answering the question of whether gays can raise orphans effectively has not a single thing to do with whether marriage should be re-defined to include them. Nothing. Nada. Zip.
 
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