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Reuben_J
Guest
I would say those who have contempt for Mary of the Catholic Church is because they think what the Catholic Church believes, not what she believes.
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Ginger2
Guest
I think you’re all coming at this from the wrong perspective. I don’t know of a single Christian who feels contempt for Mary.
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Zenas
Guest
It goes without saying that Protestants and Catholics have a very different view of Mary. Protestants view Mary as a devout woman chosen by God to bear His Son, but still a sinner just like all the rest of us. Since the Immaculate Conception is not expressly found in scripture, they reject it. Moreover, in the view of many Protestants, the Immaculate Conception would not have been necessary because Jesus did not have Mary’s DNA. She was merely an incubator for flesh that was exclusively of the Holy Spirit, not a biological mother. There is even one school of thought that maintains Mary could not be the biological mother of Jesus because if she had been, Jesus would have inherited original sin. Imagine that!
Protestants reject the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, even though it was affirmed by no less than Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Wesley. They truly believe that Mary was the mother of at least six other children, maybe more.
Protestants regard the title Mother of God as blasphemous because they can’t (won’t) wrap their minds around this concept that actually transcends time.
Finally, Protestants reject the idea of the Assumption as being outside the Bible. They also reject the idea of praying to Mary or any of the other saints.
So, they believe Mary was a good woman given to a unique role, but one who lived and died and will be resurrected along with the rest of us at the end of the age.
Now, compare this with the Catholic view of Mary who sits at the right hand of Christ as Queen of Heaven, and who makes constant intercessions for us, and you see the two groups are talking about two different people. Protestants love and respect what they regard as the Mary of the Bible, but they do have considerable hostility toward the Catholic Mary who they believe is either a goddess of something so close to being a goddess that honoring her would be sinful. Sort of like honoring the pagan Minerva or Diana. Those Protestants who hate Mary regard the Catholic Mary as equally pagan.
Of course many Protestants just ignore Mary and never think about her except at Christmas.
Protestants reject the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, even though it was affirmed by no less than Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Wesley. They truly believe that Mary was the mother of at least six other children, maybe more.
Protestants regard the title Mother of God as blasphemous because they can’t (won’t) wrap their minds around this concept that actually transcends time.
Finally, Protestants reject the idea of the Assumption as being outside the Bible. They also reject the idea of praying to Mary or any of the other saints.
So, they believe Mary was a good woman given to a unique role, but one who lived and died and will be resurrected along with the rest of us at the end of the age.
Now, compare this with the Catholic view of Mary who sits at the right hand of Christ as Queen of Heaven, and who makes constant intercessions for us, and you see the two groups are talking about two different people. Protestants love and respect what they regard as the Mary of the Bible, but they do have considerable hostility toward the Catholic Mary who they believe is either a goddess of something so close to being a goddess that honoring her would be sinful. Sort of like honoring the pagan Minerva or Diana. Those Protestants who hate Mary regard the Catholic Mary as equally pagan.
Of course many Protestants just ignore Mary and never think about her except at Christmas.
po18guy
Well-known member
The evil one never touches Mary. She is off-limits, for some unexplained spiritual reason. Thus, he dupes the ignorant and unstable to do his bidding for him. He provokes them, as he does us - just in different directions.
I believe that, no matter how far removed it may currently be, all hostility toward Mary has its source in the evil one.
I believe that, no matter how far removed it may currently be, all hostility toward Mary has its source in the evil one.
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Reuben_J
Guest
I know of some who do.
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Cat
Guest
This is pretty much what I was taught growing up as an evangelical Protestant.
Although Lutherans (Luther), Reformed and Presbyterians (Calvin, Knox), and Methodists (Wesley) know about the Early Protestant Church founders (although they don’t necessarily know what they taught), most evangelical Protestants, including many of the non-denoms, know very little or nothing about these men and their teachings. They have no idea that they believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary and that they accepted her as the Mother of God per the Church Council.
Even if evangelical Protestants do know about the teachings of the men mentioned, they would reject those teachings if they were in conflict with sola Scriptura. And since the perpetual virginity of Mary is not clearly spelled out in the Bible, and indeed, seems to be negated by the mention of Jesus’ “brothers and sisters,” evangelical Protestants would reject teachings about Mary from Luther, Calvin, and Wesley.
In answer to the OP, one of the reasons why I believe there is hostility to Mary is that she is a champion of the unborn children. Mary was the epitome of the “crisis pregnancy,” and had she lived today, would have been counselled by many to get an abortion. Mary is very threatening to those who advocate “choice” for abortion. She is proof that a child that is aborted may have turned out to be someone very important in history.
Finally, I believe that many Christians are hostile toward Mary for spiritual reasons–she is the one who leads people to her Son. I think that non-Catholic Christians sense this in their spirits, and resist the pull to the real Jesus. They would rather continue to worship the Jesus that they have made up in the imaginations or in happy Gospel songs. They want to ignore the suffering Jesus on the cross–remember, Mary stood by Him during this time. But many evangelical Protestants will state vehemently that Jesus is no longer on the Cross and that a crucifix is not necessary. You see, it’s nicer and more cheery to believe in a handsome, smiling Jesus rather than a suffering, bleeding, dying Jesus. Mary leads people to the REAL Jesus–ALL of Jesus, including the Eucharistic Jesus, and this is threatening to those who want to continue to practice “personal Christianity” and decide for themselves what the Bible teaches.
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JustaServant
Guest
If they were ‘(name removed by moderator)endents’ you probably encountered fundamentalist fanatics who should not be compared with mainline Protestants. From how you describe them they know very little of Catholicism despite having ‘friends they know’.
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Ginger2
Guest
What specifically have they said to indicate the have contempt for Mary or dislike her in any way and what religion are they?
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Zenas
Guest
Mary was a sinner.
Mary was no more than an incubator. (Independent Fundamental Baptist)
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Ginger2
Guest
Being a sinner in need of a savior is no insult.
Gal 3:22 — But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Galatians 3: makes clear God’s plan was to ensure everyone was concluded under sin - even those who had not committed personal sin - like an infant.
So, I doubt that was said with any sort of distain or contempt for Mary.
Afterall, The very first mention found in Church teaching denies the claim of Mary’s sinless perfection: (Origen at Alexandria (185-232))
No documentation from the Church during this same era or earlier is found to disagree with Origen claim.
Obviously it was not found to be offensive to the Christian World at that time.
It was almost two hundred later before the first documented instance of a Church official making claim to the immaculate conception of Mary.(ie St. Ephram)
Unlike Origen, St. Ephram did have opposition to his claim. St. Basil & St. Chrysostom both disagreed with Ephram and claim Mary sinned.
So, I don’t think that was a demonstration of disdain for Mary, but rather an acknowledgement of her eternal salvation thru Christ our Lord.
**Being called an “incubator” **
That was definitely out of line to say the least. Did someone say that directly to you? If so, was it in person or in this forum? Or is this the example of some forum where Catholics say Protestants basically reduced her to an incubator?
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Gallowglasser
Guest
Origen also castrated himself in obedience to Matthew 19:12 (i think it’s that bit), so his interpretation of scripture leaves much to be desired. Some of his writings were condemned as heresy after his death. (sourced from Triumph…, by H.W. Crocker the 3rd)
I don’t know about the St Basil and St John Chrysostym situation, but the decision of Mary ultimatly falls under the authority of the Church, and not the Saints (when they are alive).
I don’t know about the St Basil and St John Chrysostym situation, but the decision of Mary ultimatly falls under the authority of the Church, and not the Saints (when they are alive).
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Reuben_J
Guest
Why do you ask? Do you doubt me?
I know what contempt of Mary is. Many times in my travelling (I can’t say I have travelled far and wide) and my meetings with various people (I can’t say that I have met more people than others) especially when I was incognito about my religion and when the subject of Catholicism came about - the contempt of Mary was clear. I can’t say that they were in contempt of Catholicism as no distinction is detected whether their contempt of Mary was because of what they thought Catholics believe about her.
And who they are? Obviuosly non-Catholics who professed themselves as Christians.
I give you an example of what contempt of Mary is: “Mary is just a woman, like all other women. What is so special about her?” or “Mary was just a vessel”.
So the mother of our Lord is just like any other women. So the one who is full of grace whom everyone will call the most blessed is not special. Just think about that for a moment.
It reminds me of a hymn for Mary,
“When wicked men blaspheme thee, I’ll love and bless thy name”. There are man who indeed blaspheme her.
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Todd520
Guest
Reuben,
It’s all explained by motive, they are intent on insulting Catholics (not debate Mary’ role)
Unfortunately, these Christians have learned Mary is a good ‘soft-spot’ to attack with Catholics.
It’s all explained by motive, they are intent on insulting Catholics (not debate Mary’ role)
Unfortunately, these Christians have learned Mary is a good ‘soft-spot’ to attack with Catholics.
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Ginger2
Guest
It’s not a matter of doubting you are telling the truth from your perception, but I have been repeatedly accused saying things I didn’t say, and when I try to explain, I’m told it doesn’t matter whether I said it or not, because I believe it - even when I’ve stated what I believe, they say "no you don’t believe that!
So, I know very well how easy it is to misunderstand someone in a forum.
I am just trying to figure out if the person meant their statements and you interpreted them or if he/she just wasn’t clear causing you to misunderstand OR another possibility is you expected a certain response and interpreted the statement according to a preconceived idea.
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Ginger2
Guest
See, above is an example of what I am talking about. A preconceived idea that puts one on the defensive right away and creates a hostile environment.
When a Protestant sees comments like this…and even worse…he/she then goes into defense mode further convicting the Catholic the Protestant is hostle toward Catholics when the fact is they have been put on the defensive before even speaking.
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JHow
Guest
As a former protestant, let me say that I think both groups tend to talk past each other on this subject, which leads to the defensiveness you describe. It’s like talking about someone’s mother, in a real sense, to Catholics.
But let me also say that, for a protestant learning to see the Catholic view of Mary is probably one of the most difficult aspects of conversion - more so than accepting the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, in my opinion. That protestants don’t “get it” right away is not evidence that they harbor ill will to the Catholic church, or even to Mary herself. The catholics here need to understand that if a person comes from a faith tradition that eschews iconography, that applies a “bare-walls” aesthetic - there is a kind of sensual overload that happens in the catholic church. It’s kind of like going to England and trying to drive on the right side of the road - even when you understand it in theory, it doesn’t come naturally.
I don’t fault people for not understanding, and even if they maybe aren’t expressing it in the most appropriate way, or giving voice to what they really mean, I believe it is this discomfort that underlies their reaction.
To the people bashing the Chick tracts, I would add that, as a protestant, long before I converted, when I first encountered a Chick tract, I thought is was one of the nastiest pieces of work I ever encountered. I am sure many many protestants see it the same way. Ultimately, it is the Chick organization that has to answer for that nonsense. We should not paint all fundamentalists with the Chick brush.
po18guy
Well-known member
Hostility toward Mary had its genesis in the reformation. Even though Martin Luther had a great love of and venerated Mary, at the same time he taught as doctrine the private interpretation of scripture apart from the authority of the Church. This interpretive license has lead, in certain cases, to the now almost fully realized misogynistic views of Mary as just another sinful womb. Yet, these truth distorters cannot show where Mary sinned, nor can they explain how or why God found favor with her out of all women who would ever exist. God created that womb, that heart, that soul for a singular, divine and eternal purpose and now men criticize God’s ways. The devil delights in this.
All of this twisting and distortion for the sake of the ego. What was it that lead to the fall in the garden?
All of this twisting and distortion for the sake of the ego. What was it that lead to the fall in the garden?
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
But they don’t necessarily understand the honor that we give Mary. Nor do they necessarily understand the Church’s doctrine regarding Mary. In general there is a lot of misconceptions about Catholics…even by former Catholics.
Trust me…I used to be one of them!
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Z_Ninja
Guest
Somehow me and a group of friends got into a conversation about religion. Me being Catholic, one friend Jehova’s Witness, and not sure what my other friend was, I think he was Baptist. He was the one that made a comment along the lines of worshiping Mary and such, and I explained that it is not worship, and we do not pray to her, we ask her to intercede for us. His reply, “I know, I know, you don’t worship her like that, and I don’t have a problem with the Catholic Church, it’s just Mary, she can **** me.” I think that is pretty close to contempt for Mary.
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Ginger2
Guest
Trust me… I was raised Catholic. I know very well what the Catholics teach about Mary…I even know the origins of these doctrines.
Yet, the standard Catholic response is that “even former catholics don’t understand the doctrines about Mary”
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