Why the hostility toward Mary?

[rinnie]

Weeeellllll, I guess I can respond like this:

I disagree with the “necessary” portion, I feel that it was fitting but not necessary. I, however, dont think that either of our divergent opinions really make a lick of difference in this topic since we both hold to the one faith of Christ and accept that our Blessed Mother was perpetually sinless, perpetual virgin, and was assumed into heaven to sit beside our Lord as the Queen Mother prefigured by the queen mothers of the old testament.

So, my disagreement comes down to semantics and is really of no consequence in the grand scheme of things.

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Okay now that was my opinion remember you asked my opinion Now here is why I think that my opinion is a pretty good one.

The Angel says Hail Full of Grace. that is proof that she is sinless, Think about it where there is sin you will not find God. Hail full of grace THE LORD IS WITH YOU.

 

[rinnie]

How do you know Mary was sinless? Where is that written? Does that not conflict with the Bible where it states that only Jesus was sinless?

Hail full of grace the Lord is with you.

 

[Born_Warrior]

Hail full of grace the Lord is with you.

Of course the Lord is with me, as he is with you and all believers. I believe in Jesus, and he has forgiven me for my sinful thoughts and ways, past, present and future.

 

[elvisman]

Okay now that was my opinion remember you asked my opinion Now here is why I think that my opinion is a pretty good one.

The Angel says Hail Full of Grace. that is proof that she is sinless, Think about it where there is sin you will not find God. Hail full of grace THE LORD IS WITH YOU.

Mary was conceived without sin. The fact that her parents and their parents and so on were NOT is because there is NO Biblical precedent for it.

Mary, on the other hand - DOES have the OT type/precedent - the Ark of the Covenant.

NT types are ALWAYS more glorious and perfect than their OT types. There is NO exception to the rule: Eve & Mary, the Paschal Lamb and Jesus, David & Jesus, Ark of the Covenant &* Mary*, Jerusalem and the Church.
**

 

[elvisman]

Of course the Lord is with me, as he is with you and all believers. I believe in Jesus, and he has forgiven me for my sinful thoughts and ways, past, present and future.

REALLY??
So, you don’t have to repent when you sin?**
You can just keep on living a life of grave sin and tell God to take a hike?

That’s NOT what the Bible says, my confused friend:
Romans 11:22
Hebrews 10:26-27
2 Peter 2:20-22
1 Cor. 9:27
Matt. 24:1

 

[Cat_Herder]

Of course the Lord is with me, as he is with you and all believers. I believe in Jesus, and he has forgiven me for my sinful thoughts and ways, past, present and future.

Genesis 3:15 NRSV

I will put enmity between you and the woman,
***and between your offspring and hers;
he will strike your head,
***and you will strike his heel.’

Who is the Woman? Hint: who is Her Seed?

 

[rinnie]

Of course the Lord is with me, as he is with you and all believers. I believe in Jesus, and he has forgiven me for my sinful thoughts and ways, past, present and future.

Huh? You asked for a scripture that says that Mary was sinless. I gave it to you Hail full of Grace, the Lord is with you.

I am glad that you believe in Jesus, very glad. And I am glad you believe he has forgiven you. But what you believe is not what God teaches though is it?

God say to repent and confess your sins. So I cannot understand how your sins can be forgiven especially in the future and present if you have not confessed them!

 

[rinnie]

REALLY??
So, you don’t** have to repent when you sin?
You can just keep on living a life of grave sin and tell God to take a hike?

That’s NOT what the Bible says, my confused friend:
Romans 11:22
Hebrews 10:26-27
2 Peter 2:20-22
1 Cor. 9:27
Matt. 24:1

Boy Elvis, talk about 2 people thinking the same exact thing at the same exact time

 

[elvisman]

Boy Elvis, talk about 2 people thinking the same exact thing at the same exact time

Sometimes great minds think alike . . .

 

[rinnie]

Mary was conceived without sin. The fact that her parents and their parents and so on were NOT is because there is NO Biblical precedent for it.

Mary, on the other hand - DOES have the OT type/precedent - the Ark of the Covenant.

NT types are ALWAYS more glorious and perfect than their OT types. There is NO exception to the rule: Eve & Mary, the Paschal Lamb and Jesus, David &* Jesus*, Ark of the Covenant &* Mary*, Jerusalem and the Church.

No elvisman, go back and check it out. According to the teaching of the Church Mary was saved from sin at the MOMENT of her conception. She was not conceived without sin, its just sin never touched her. Think about it Mary was conceived by Anna and her husband and they were like us touched with original sin. BUt Mary was saved from it at the SECOND of her conception. So she was never tainted by sin.

Now Jesus was concieved without Sin, but Mary was saved at her conception. Thats why its called the Immaculate Conception. (and some people think that was when the steelers won the superbowl that year)

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Okay now that was my opinion remember you asked my opinion Now here is why I think that my opinion is a pretty good one.

The Angel says Hail Full of Grace. that is proof that she is sinless, Think about it where there is sin you will not find God. Hail full of grace THE LORD IS WITH YOU.

You will get no argument about the sinlessness of Mary from me Rinnie. I absolutely agree and often use that Kecharitomene explanation as well

No elvisman, go back and check it out. According to the teaching of the Church Mary was saved from sin at the MOMENT of her conception. She was not conceived without sin, its just sin never touched her. Think about it Mary was conceived by Anna and her husband and they were like us touched with original sin. BUt Mary was saved from it at the SECOND of her conception. So she was never tainted by sin.

Now Jesus was concieved without Sin, but Mary was saved at her conception. Thats why its called the Immaculate Conception. (and some people think that was when the steelers won the superbowl that year)

Ahhh, I see where you are coming from now. See, semantic differences only!

Although, one small thing

Immaculate = Completely Clean so an immaculate conception is, by definition, free from sin. So, in essence, we cannot know whether your semantics are correct or whether mine and Elvis’s are when we state that she was conceived without sin. Did it happen before sperm met egg, at that instant, immediately after? Only God knows. But we do know that she was sinless and that is what counts, right?

Remember what the prayer says “Mary, conceived without sin”…

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[Born_Warrior]

It does not say that only Jesus was sinless.

Instead of throwing out verses that have mostly nothing to do with Jesus being sinless, read the right verses.

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:22 - Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth.

Hebrews 4:15 - For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

Again, there is not one Scripture given to show Mary is without sin.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Instead of throwing out verses that have mostly nothing to do with Jesus being sinless, read the right verses.

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:22 - Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth.

Hebrews 4:15 - For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

Again, there is not one Scripture given to show Mary is without sin.

Again, show me the scripture verse that states we have One God in three Divine Persons

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[rinnie]

You will get no argument about the sinlessness of Mary from me Rinnie. I absolutely agree and often use that Kecharitomene explanation as well

Ahhh, I see where you are coming from now. See, semantic differences only!

Although, one small thing

Immaculate = Completely Clean so an immaculate conception is, by definition, free from sin. So, in essence, we cannot know whether your semantics are correct or whether mine and Elvis’s are when we state that she was conceived without sin. Did it happen before sperm met egg, at that instant, immediately after? Only God knows. But we do know that she was sinless and that is what counts, right?

Remember what the prayer says “Mary, conceived without sin”…

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I will never forget that. My Son said Mom do you know what the Immaculate Conception is? I said yes, do you, and he said yes. and he told me about that game. My Husband and I laughed so so hard. We said no Son that is the Immaculate REception. Not Conception, Big difference

 

[Anglican_Gal]

The other day I was chatting with another mom from my son’s preschool. The topic of church came up, as she was telling me that her church (an independent church) was sponsoring the Community Day that weekend. When I mentioned that I’m Catholic, she kind of sneered. She said that she"had a lot of friends that were Catholic growing up and went along to (CCD?) with them. They were doing the “Mary Thing”. When I asked her what she meant, she said “the sacrements”. I couldn’t help but notice the vemom with which she said “Mary”. I’ve only been Catholic for a few months, but this isn’t the first time I have experienced a hostility toward Mary from some non-Catholics. I was raised Methodist and we basically thought about Mary at Christmas. But never anything negative.

I’d like to hear from Catholics and non-Catholics. Is this something that is common? I don’t understand having contempt for Jesus’s mother, even if your particular faith tradition does not venerate her as Catholics do.

On a related note, why does the word “Roman” in Roman Catholic sometimes sound like a slur when used by non-Catholic Christians? I’m not trying to lump all non-Catholics together, I’m just trying to understand the negativity in some and how I can educate (if they are open) to what Catholics really believe as opposed to what they have been told we believe. I’m sorry this is so long. I really need some insight here.

Thank you,
Sharen

I’m an Anglican (not Episcopalian, but from those churches continuing in orthodoxy called the “Continuum churches.”) I have a devotion to the Theotokos, as well, especially under the title of Our Lady of Walsingham. In the UK, the Roman Catholics and Anglicans have facilities at the same shrine. Here is some info on the Anglican shrine:

walsinghamanglican.org.uk/intro.htm

However, after leaving the Episcopal Church in the 80’s, I attended various Protestant churches, and like you have noted, there does seem to be a disdain for the Blessed Mother. I relate this to the distorted information that Protestants often have regarding the doctrines and practice of the Roman Church (and Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox) pertaining to God’s dear Mother. They focus in on some extreme statements, and impute those statements to the Church - and have finally abandoned Mary totally as our model and intercessor.

 

[Born_Warrior]

Actually the Bible says they are cousins.

[BIBLEDRB]Mt 27:56[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Jn 19:25[/BIBLEDRB]

Actually, those verses don’t show that.

[BIBLEDRB]Mk 12:25[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Rev 5:8[/BIBLEDRB]

Because you haven’t bothered to look.

Can you show me, because I or anyone else so far can’t find it.

You seemed to have strained to avoid calling Her the Mother of GOD. So is She or isn’t She?

I did not ‘strain’ to say it. You actually post me saying it! (look about an inch above). Of course she is the mother of God, and that is all she is. Again, she was a great woman, I would say the greatest woman that ever lived. But she is not someone to pray to or worship in anyway.

 

[Anglican_Gal]

Again, show me the scripture verse that states we have One God in three Divine Persons

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While there is no single verse that states, for instance, the Athanasian Creed, there are many verses in both the Old and New Testaments that when, joined together as a whole, prove beyond any reasonable doubt that God is a Tripersonal Center of Being. This has also always been the historic teaching of the Church, as confirmed by the holy fathers of the Church since its beginning:

newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

 

[elvisman]

No elvisman, go back and check it out. According to the teaching of the Church Mary was saved from sin at the MOMENT of her conception. She was not conceived without sin, its just sin never touched her. Think about it Mary was conceived by Anna and her husband and they were like us touched with original sin. BUt Mary was saved from it at the SECOND of her conception. So she was never tainted by sin.

Now Jesus was concieved without Sin, but Mary was saved at her conception. Thats why its called the Immaculate Conception. (and some people think that was when the steelers won the superbowl that year)

You’re wrong, rinnie - or just confused.
Mary was conceived without Original Sin - making her sinless (CCC - 490-494).

Your saying that she was saved at the moment of her conception is redundant.

This is why it is called the dogma of the Immaculate Conception . . .

 

[Born_Warrior]

Again, show me the scripture verse that states we have One God in three Divine Persons

FSC

The word “Trinty” is nowhere in the Bible.

Of course you have 1 John 5: 7, 8. which states - 5:7 *“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. *5:8 *And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” *

Of course, then you have the whole Comma Johanneum problem…

Ok, so please tell me where in the Bible where it mentions that we pray to Mary and that she was sinless.

 

[elvisman]

The word “Trinty” is nowhere in the Bible.

Of course you have 1 John 5: 7, 8. which states - 5:7 *“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. *5:8 *And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” *

Of course, then you have the whole Comma Johanneum problem…

Ok, so please tell me where in the Bible where it mentions that we pray to Mary and that she was sinless.

Protestants like to ask this question because it is not explicitly in the Bible. The fact that we must find all truth in the Bible is not in the Bible either. In fact – the word Bible isn’t in the Bible, so why would you call it that?

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**Even the Bereans, who studied the Scriptures to insure that Paul’s oral teaching (Tradition) was in line with what was written, ultimately believed a truth that was not explicitly there: The fact that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, the Messiah. **

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In fact, we first find the word Trinity in the writings of Tertullian (c.155-230). The doctrine was decreed by the Catholic Church at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD because of the Arian Heresy, which claimed that saying that Jesus was not of one substance with the Father and that he had not existed in Eternity with the Father.

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**To prove that we are not to ask those in Heaven for help, many Protestants will quote 1 Tim. 2:5, where Paul writes, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." The Catholic Church agrees with this verse. Jesus IS our only mediator before God in that only his sacrifice could atone for our sins and bring peace between us and the Father. **

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**However, to say that there are not other intercessors goes against Scripture. We are ALL called upon to intercede for one another with prayer and supplications – 2 Cor. 1:10-11, Eph. 6:18-20, 1Tim. 2:1-4, James 5:16. **

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Protestants often say that to “pray” to somebody in heaven to ask them to for pray for us is idolatry because prayer is reserved for God alone. This is a complete failure to understand the word. To pray, in the most rudimentary definition of the word, is to petition – to ask something of someone. We pray to each other daily. Whereas prayers of adoration, worship, confession are reserved for God alone, asking a saint in Heaven to pray for us is no different than asking a saint on earth to do the same. To deny this is to deny the reality that is the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:12-31). We are ALL parts of the Body of Christ and are more radically joined together than the finger is to the hand because we are joined in Christ – and not by mere flesh.

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Heb. 12:1** tells us that* “we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses”* and that we are to live accordingly. A witness is somebody who sees and hears things (Acts 1:8, 2:32) – otherwise they are not witnesses. Revelation 5:8 shows the Elders in heaven bringing our prayers before God and Rev. 8:3-4 speaks of the Angels in heaven doing the same thing we ask of Mary or any other saint in heaven or on earth.**