Why the hostility toward Mary?

[dianaiad]

This is a typical ploy of non-Trinitarians (who are heretical, by the way, since they deny the nature of God and Deity of Christ). Of course the “word” Trinity is not in the Bible because it did not exist when the Bible was being written. It was a term coined at a later date to define the information found in the Scriptures, and explained by the early church fathers and Councils regarding the Triune nature of the Godhead.

(raising hand…)

er…

Just a point of order here.

Not all non-Trinitarians 'deny the nature of God and Deity of Christ." They do have a different opinion regarding the nature of God, and I know at least one group of non-Trinitarians who are quite aware that Jesus is God.

Be careful of generalizations. Whenever I try to pull one, I get nailed.

 

[dianaiad]

To answer the OPs question, I can’t think of any Christian group that is hostile to Mary. Does anyone here no any that are?

I believe that we settled THAT question rather early on, Warrior: the thread has taken quite a detour since then.

 

[Cat_Herder]

According to the Bible:
] 1. Can the saints hear us?
] 2. Should we be praying for the intercession of saints?
] 3. Is it right to honor saints?

► 1. Can the saints hear us?

If they can hear the prayers of people it is because God grants that to them. Can those in heaven hear the prayers uttered without speech? Can they read minds? It is only God who knows all things and only God can grant anyone to hear or know what the prayers are of those who pray in silence. The saints don’t have omniscience.

I agree 100%. The saints are not God. They only have the knowledge that is granted them by God. Let’s see if God has granted them the ability to see what’s going on on Earth:

[BIBLEDRB]Lk 9:30-31[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Mk 9:4[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Rev 6:9-11[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Heb 12:1[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Lk 16:19-30[/BIBLEDRB]

Answer: Yup.

► 2. Should we be praying for the intercession of saints?

Just because those in heaven can hear the prayers of those on Earth does not mean that is okay to pray to saints.
…
Lets look at one of the major verses that is use to support praying to anyone else but God, Rev. 5:8-14.
…
Unlike some other Christians, I have no problem with belieiving those in heaven hear what is said on earth. Does this justify praying to those who are in heaven? No.

Well, for your information, Catholics (and Orthodox and high-church Anglicans) do not pray to saints. We pray through saints. We ask saints to pray for us. Where do we get this idea from?

[BIBLEDRB]Rom 15:30[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Col 4:3[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Thessalonians 5:25[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Thessalonians 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Thessalonians 3:1[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Eph 6:18-19[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Psalm 148:1-4[/BIBLEDRB]

Those are standing orders. Christians are to pray for one another. Now… show me a book and verse that says that this obligation to pray for one another stops at death.

There isn’t one. That the duty to pray for one another ends at death is a tradition of men.

So what you might do is say, “well, the saints are dead, so asking them to pray is necromancy,” and you cite this verse:

[BIBLEDRB]Dt 18:10-11[/BIBLEDRB]

Now, you seem to be an intelligent person. I think you understand what the problem is with calling the saints “dead.”

[BIBLEDRB]Mk 12:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]

Jesus Christ has destroyed death, and as you admit, there are human beings in Heaven who are depicted in the Book of Revelation as being very much alive and very much engaged in the practice of offering prayers.

The saints are not dead. Necromancy referred to conjuring up spirits from Sheol/hell/the underworld. Calling on someone who is in heaven to pray for you is not necromancy, first of all because there is no “necro,” no death, involved.

So if we’re going to go by the Bible alone, the honest thing to do is to admit:
A. Christians have a duty to pray for one another
B. This duty does not end at death
C. There are human beings who are in heaven offering prayers.

► 3. Is it right to honor saints?

Revelation says:
"*And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy,” *(Rev. 19:10).

John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John, and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel, or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing.

Have you checked the rest of the Bible?
[BIBLEDRB]Jos 5:12-15[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Dan 8:17[/BIBLEDRB]

Egad! People bowing to angels! The horror!

Why was it okay for Josue/Joshua or Daniel to bow to an angel, and not John? Look what John did besides bowing:

And I fell at his feet to worship him.

John actually worshiped the angel. Joshua and Daniel merely honored the angel as a holy servant of God; their worship was directed to God. The former is worship of adoration; the latter is veneration. This distinction is biblical, and not just something that some guy in Rome came up with.

Oh, and what happens to human beings when they reach heaven?

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 20:36[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 22:30[/BIBLEDRB]

So, here’s our checklist again.

According to the Bible:
[X] 1. Can the saints hear us? YES.
[X] 2. Should we be praying for the intercession of saints? YES.
[X] 3. Is it right to honor saints? YES.

As has been said, a big part of growing up is accepting that the more you learn, the less you realize that you actually know.

 

[Born_Warrior]

According to the Bible:
] 1. Can the saints hear us?
] 2. Should we be praying for the intercession of saints?
] 3. Is it right to honor saints?

► 1. Can the saints hear us?

I agree 100%. The saints are not God. They only have the knowledge that is granted them by God. Let’s see if God has granted them the ability to see what’s going on on Earth:

[BIBLEDRB]Lk 9:30-31[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Mk 9:4[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Rev 6:9-11[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Heb 12:1[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Lk 16:19-30[/BIBLEDRB]

Answer: Yup.

► 2. Should we be praying for the intercession of saints?

Well, for your information, Catholics (and Orthodox and high-church Anglicans) do not pray to saints. We pray through saints. We ask saints to pray for us. Where do we get this idea from?

[BIBLEDRB]Rom 15:30[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Col 4:3[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Thessalonians 5:25[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Thessalonians 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Thessalonians 3:1[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Eph 6:18-19[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Psalm 148:1-4[/BIBLEDRB]

Those are standing orders. Christians are to pray for one another. Now… show me a book and verse that says that this obligation to pray for one another stops at death.

There isn’t one. That the duty to pray for one another ends at death is a tradition of men.

So what you might do is say, “well, the saints are dead, so asking them to pray is necromancy,” and you cite this verse:

[BIBLEDRB]Dt 18:10-11[/BIBLEDRB]

Now, you seem to be an intelligent person. I think you understand what the problem is with calling the saints “dead.”

[BIBLEDRB]Mk 12:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]

Jesus Christ has destroyed death, and as you admit, there are human beings in Heaven who are depicted in the Book of Revelation as being very much alive and very much engaged in the practice of offering prayers.

The saints are not dead. Necromancy referred to conjuring up spirits from Sheol/hell/the underworld. Calling on someone who is in heaven to pray for you is not necromancy, first of all because there is no “necro,” no death, involved.

So if we’re going to go by the Bible alone, the honest thing to do is to admit:
A. Christians have a duty to pray for one another
B. This duty does not end at death
C. There are human beings who are in heaven offering prayers.

► 3. Is it right to honor saints?

Have you checked the rest of the Bible?
[BIBLEDRB]Jos 5:12-15[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Dan 8:17[/BIBLEDRB]

Egad! People bowing to angels! The horror!

Why was it okay for Josue/Joshua or Daniel to bow to an angel, and not John? Look what John did besides bowing:

John actually worshiped the angel. Joshua and Daniel merely honored the angel as a holy servant of God; their worship was directed to God. The former is worship of adoration; the latter is veneration. This distinction is biblical, and not just something that some guy in Rome came up with.

Oh, and what happens to human beings when they reach heaven?

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 20:36[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 22:30[/BIBLEDRB]

So, here’s our checklist again.

According to the Bible:
[X] 1. Can the saints hear us? YES.
[X] 2. Should we be praying for the intercession of saints? YES.
[X] 3. Is it right to honor saints? YES.

As has been said, a big part of growing up is accepting that the more you learn, the less you realize that you actually know.

Your flawed interpretations of the verses do not support your conclusions. Also, throwing out verses that have no relevance to your argument for the sake of just trying to show your are knowledgeable is like a child saying LALALALALA while your are trying to have a serious discussion.

Maybe you should follow your own advice.

 

[Cat_Herder]

What is with the insults? Very Christian of you. Jesus would be proud.

The last line was not intended as an insult. Just wisdom. I for one am still learning something new every day.

By the way, your flawed interpretations of verses do not support your conclusions.

By what authority?

Also, throwing out verses that have no relevance to your argument for the sake of just trying to show your are knowledgeable is like a child saying LALALALALA while your are trying to have a serious discussion.

For the better part of this thread, you have been trying to convince us that you are more knowledgeable than the Catholic Church…

 

[Anglican_Gal]

(raising hand…)

er…

Just a point of order here.

Not all non-Trinitarians 'deny the nature of God and Deity of Christ." They do have a different opinion regarding the nature of God, and I know at least one group of non-Trinitarians who are quite aware that Jesus is God.

Be careful of generalizations. Whenever I try to pull one, I get nailed.

You are speaking of those often called “Jesus Onlies” Sabellians, who actually believe there is only one Person in the Godhead, and that is Jesus. The Personhood of the Holy Spirit is essentially denied, and the Father is identified with Jesus. Any subject/object relationship between the Father and Son is explained away and not dealt with. I wrote a paper on them once. You will find them in such groups as the United Pentecostal Church and the Apostolic Churches. William Branham, a well-known evangelist in the twentieth century was a of this mindset.

Christians who are orthodox in their view of the Godhead (and this would include the Roman Catholic Church) consider these groups to be heretical. As far as denying the Deity of Christ, they confuse Him with the Father, and blend Him into the Holy Spirit - therefore, the true Deity of Christ as the Second Person of a Triune Godhead can clearly be seen to be compromised.

I wasn’t making generalizations - I know of what I speak. I’ve dealt with this group back east when they wanted to join in with an outreach to migrant farm workers we were directing. We had developed a great relationship with the migrant workers, and were conducting Bible Studies. Even though our Spanish wasn’t the greatest - we were reaching out to them, helping with their physical and social needs. When were were approached by two women wanting to “help,” we were happy. It was a lot of work! However, something “checked” in my spirit. I couldn’t put my finger on it. Finally, I felt led by the Holy Spirit to ask them if they believed in the Trinity, and they said no - their church was Sabellian.

Also many of the Apostolic Churches out west subject women to head coverings, and insist they never wear pants, and keep their hair very long. They are strongly legalistic. Some of these groups also believe that if a pastor’s wife dies, he can only remarry a virgin. As a result of this, one older pastor married a sixteen year old gal in his congreation. Shades of FLDS!

Some of these Jesus Only sects believe you are not truly baptized unless it is in the Name of JESUS ONLY, which is where they get their nickname. This must be coupled with speaking in tongues as evidence of salvation. So, Trinitarian baptism, by which we are incorporated into the Body of Christ and outwardly identified as Christians, is denied.

Information on unorthodox views of the Godhead can be found here:

gotquestions.org/Sabellianism-Modalism-Monarchianism.html

 

[Cat_Herder]

You are speaking of those often called “Jesus Onlies” Sabellians, who actually believe there is only one Person in the Godhead, and that is Jesus.

I think Diana was referring to the LDS, though. The LDS view of the Godhead is three separate Persons with separate Essences, which is not the same as the Sabellian view (just one Person) or the orthodox view (three Persons, one Essence).

But this thread is about Mary.

 

[Anglican_Gal]

On the other hand, if “dianaiad” is suggesting that Mormons believe in a Godhead comparable to Christianity, and that Jesus is God, I cannot agree.

Mormonism teaches that “heavenly father” was once a human being on another planet and that through obedience to all the laws and ordinances of Mormonism, died and progressed to godhood in the celestial kingdom. Joseph Smith in the King Follett discourse stated that Mormons have to learn to become gods as have ALL gods before them.

In the Mormon view, the “heavenly father” and his wife or wives, called “heavenly mother” procreated by some unknown process spirit children in pre-mortal existence. The first spirit child was Jesus. Another was Lucifer. This makes Jesus the brother of Lucifer in pre-existence. It should be noted that since Joseph Smith taught that God could create nothing from nothingness, he had to “organize” from pre-existing matter the earth, the heavens, and all his spirit children (who were originally intelligences, a kind of “low level” life form).

Mormonism states that Jesus somehow “attained unto godhood” in pre-existence, even though he had not yet passed through mortal life. The Holy Spirit also became a god in pre-existence, and has a body of “spirit” material but is not omnipresent.

So it is safe to say that the Jesus of Mormonism while called “a god” is no more of a god than all Mormons believe they can become. He is simply chronologically older. All faithful, Temple-going, tithe paying Mormons can be “exalted” to godhood.

So to call Jesus “god” in Mormonism, has nothing to do with the Christian belief that He has eternally been God, the Word, and was Incarnated on earth as Jesus Christ. He is the God-Man, defined by the hypostatic union, and has nothing to do with the compromised “deity” of the Jesus of Mormonism.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[Cat_Herder]

To try and get the thread back on track, while also building on the previous posts…

One reason why Fundamentalists misunderstand the Communion of Saints is that they teach that prayer is an act of worship, and thus that it is a form of worship that is due to God alone. Hence the accusations of “Mary worship.”

The words “prayer” and “worship” do not exclusively refer to the kind of honor that is due to God alone.

“Prayer” simply means a sincere request. Check the dictionary:

pray |prā|
verb intrans. ]
address a solemn request or expression of thanks to a deity or other object of worship : the whole family is praying for Michael | trans. ] pray God this is true.
• wish or hope strongly for a particular outcome or situation : after several days of rain, we were praying for sun | [with clause ] I prayed that James wouldn’t notice.
adverb formal or archaic
used as a preface to polite requests or instructions : pray continue.
• used as a way of adding ironic or sarcastic emphasis to a question : and what, pray, was the purpose of that?
(New Oxford American Dictionary, 2d ed.)

“Worship” is simply an honor or title given to someone. After the Reformation and over time it came to be used more exclusively to refer to divine worship, but that was not the original, and still is not the only, use of the word.

worship |ˈwər sh əp|
noun
the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity : the worship of God | ancestor worship.
• the acts or rites that make up a formal expression of reverence for a deity; a religious ceremony or ceremonies : the church was opened for public worship.
• adoration or devotion comparable to religious homage, shown toward a person or principle : Krushchev threw the worship of Stalin overboard.
• archaic honor given to someone in recognition of their merit.
• [as title ] ( His/Your Worship) chiefly Brit. used in addressing or referring to an important or high-ranking person, esp. a magistrate or mayor : we were soon joined by His Worship the Mayor.
(New Oxford American Dictionary, 2d ed.)

Moreover, prayer is not exclusively a form of divine worship. Lawyers pray to judges all the time. Pleadings without a prayer on them are thrown out of court. British magistrates are still called “Your Worship” just as judges in the United States (and Britain) are called “Your Honor.”

 

[PRmerger]

there, there, PRmerger…it will be all right, and I’ll make you a deal. I won’t use .02 cents to refer to 2 cents, if you won’t use ‘hypothetical’ as a noun. OK? We’ll both feel much better, knowing that at least one other person out there understands our pain.

Huh?

Are you talking about this post:

Since there is no Cardinal, to the public’s knowledge, that has done the above, it’s merely a hypothetical, and I find no offense in her analogy whatsoever.

What’s wrong with that? It’s understood that the word “situation” follows the use of the word ***“hypothetical”. ***

Not to mention, I’m in good company when using words that end in*** “ical”*** as nouns. Gilbert and Sullivan, no less!

I had to do a search of my own posts to see if I’d ever used the word “hypothetical” as a noun, and indeed I had–to defend you, which is*** ironical.***

(And yay! The search function is working again! :extrahappy

 

[PRmerger]

How do you know Mary was sinless?

I know Mary was sinless because it’s part of the Teaching of the Apostles. And it has been ever since the beginning.

Where is that written?

If you mean “where is it written in the Bible”, then you’ll have to show me where it says in Scriptuer that all of God’s revelation has to be written. Chapter and verse, please.

Otherwise, if you cannot show me that verse (and, of course, you cannot) then I won’t indulge your question, for it’s nonsensical. (Tribute to you, diana! )

Does that not conflict with the Bible where it states that only Jesus was sinless?

I’d like a verse for that, too, BW. “Only Jesus was sinless” or “the only sinless person was the Son of God” would be good. Chapter and verse, too, please (with emphasis on the “only”, 'kay?)

 

[Born_Warrior]

The last line was not intended as an insult. Just wisdom. I for one am still learning something new every day.

Me too

By what authority?

**What you posted does not support what you are saying. You are just throwing out versus, most which are not relevant. If you use a verse to make a point, why don’t you just post the part that actually is relevant. **

For the better part of this thread, you have been trying to convince us that you are more knowledgeable than the Catholic Church…

**I didn’t say that. But hundreds of millions of non-Catholic Christians and many Biblical scholars don’t agree with what the Church says. And many say some of the dogma and doctrine is heresy.

IMHO I think some of the things the Church has said and done over the years have been corrupted by man. That happens in any religion. Look at the history of some of the Popes for example. I just saw a special on Leo X. He was a disgrace. The Inquisition. Crusades. Etc, Etc. Again, every religion has its issues. But the Catholic Church is large and powerful, so their effects were felt more than other Christian religions.

Thankfully Christianity has put this past behind them and shows the world how peaceful and righteous we are…**

.

 

[KathleenGee]

Cat Herder

Thank you for all your work in supporting the role of the communion of saints which we have had in the Apostles Creed for almost 2,000 years.

People have to realize that there believers who understood events in those times, and that this understanding, we call Tradition, has been passed down for 2,000 years. Scripture and Tradition – the manner of understanding our faith from the Apostles are both needed.

We don’t have a book. Our faith is not one of a book but a living relationship with the one True God among us.

Mary is the greatest of all saints, no one else like her, singularly blessed for a most singular mission, to the point that all generations would call her blessed.

 

[Born_Warrior]

I know Mary was sinless because it’s part of the Teaching of the Apostles. And it has been ever since the beginning.

Where is it written

If you mean “where is it written in the Bible”, then you’ll have to show me where it says in Scriptuer that all of God’s revelation has to be written. Chapter and verse, please.

**The Bible is the word of God, where else would you get revelations? Who should I believe, what God wrote through men (Bible) or what man created themselves.
**
Otherwise, if you cannot show me that verse (and, of course, you cannot) then I won’t indulge your question, for it’s nonsensical. (Tribute to you, diana! )

Your point is invalid from what I posted above.

I’d like a verse for that, too, BW. “Only Jesus was sinless” or “the only sinless person was the Son of God” would be good. Chapter and verse, too, please (with emphasis on the “only”, 'kay?)

Look at my posts in this thread I have posted them more than once and am getting tired of repeating myself over and over… Prove me wrong with verses that say Jesus wasn’t the only sinless person.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I just saw a special on Leo X. He was a disgrace.

Popes sin. They even make mistakes, but not when there is a matter of teaching faith and morals at stake.

The Inquisition.

The Spanish one? The Church was against it once the excesses began. The Spanish government refused to listen to the Pope.

Or are you referring to the Protestant inquisitions?

Crusades.

Do you even know what they were about?


Look at history.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Cat Herder

Thank you for all your work in supporting the role of the communion of saints which we have had in the Apostles Creed for almost 2,000 years.

:tiphat:

 

[PRmerger]

BW, please use the Quote Feature so others can respond to your posts in the normative way. If you nest your responses, it does not appear when we quote you.

The Bible is the word of God, where else would you get revelations? Who should I believe, what God wrote through men (Bible) or what man created themselves.

Well, the fact that you believe that Acts of the Apostles, and not, say the Didache, is inspired is not because the Bible said so. It’s because the Catholic Church said it’s inspired.

So, to answer your question, you get your revelation in the same manner as Catholics do–from Christ through the Catholic Church.

Look at my posts in this thread I have posted them more than once and am getting tired of repeating myself over and over… Prove me wrong with verses that say Jesus wasn’t the only sinless person.

NOT A SINGLE VERSE you cited (which, amusingly, you only know because the Catholic Church gave them to you ) says that ONLY Jesus is sinless.

Remember, I asked for that little but quite subversive word “only”.

I’d like a verse for that, too, BW. “Only Jesus was sinless” or “the only sinless person was the Son of God” would be good. Chapter and verse, too, please (with emphasis on the “only”, 'kay?)

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Prove me wrong with verses that say Jesus wasn’t the only sinless person.

*Born_Warrior, you yourself have said in this post that Catholics are “trying to make the verses fit your argument, but it doesn’t work.” Can we not say the same for you and, well, many of your posts?

And you are going off of personal interpretation of the Scriptures, are you not?*

 

[PRmerger]

Well let us compare:

What do we read in the Vulgate… as a Catholic you should love this one:
Luke 1:28: Et ingressus Angelus ad eam dixit: Ave gratia plena: Dominus tecum: Benedicta tu in mulieribus.
Acts 6:8: Stephanus autem plenus gratia, et fortitudine faciebat prodigia, et signa magna in populo.

Funny to see it in the Latin though. Word order is not relevant in Latin by the way…

This has been addressed in other threads.

Acts 6:8: Stephen full of grace too?

Mary questions I can’t answer

 

[Cat_Herder]

The Bible is the word of God, where else would you get revelations? Who should I believe, what God wrote through men (Bible) or what man created themselves.

How do you know that the Bible is the Word of God?

The same group of disciples who decided that the Bible is the Word of God are the same ones who prayed like this:

Ὑπὸ τὴν σὴν εὐσπλαγχνίαν,
καταφεύγομεν, Θεοτόκε.
Τὰς ἡμῶν ἱκεσίας,
μὴ παρίδῃς ἐν περιστάσει,
ἀλλ᾽ ἐκ κινδύνων λύτρωσαι ἡμᾶς,
μόνη Ἁγνή, μόνη εὐλογημένη.

Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.