Why the hostility toward Mary?

[Sharen]

The other day I was chatting with another mom from my son’s preschool. The topic of church came up, as she was telling me that her church (an independent church) was sponsoring the Community Day that weekend. When I mentioned that I’m Catholic, she kind of sneered. She said that she"had a lot of friends that were Catholic growing up and went along to (CCD?) with them. They were doing the “Mary Thing”. When I asked her what she meant, she said “the sacrements”. I couldn’t help but notice the vemom with which she said “Mary”. I’ve only been Catholic for a few months, but this isn’t the first time I have experienced a hostility toward Mary from some non-Catholics. I was raised Methodist and we basically thought about Mary at Christmas. But never anything negative.

I’d like to hear from Catholics and non-Catholics. Is this something that is common? I don’t understand having contempt for Jesus’s mother, even if your particular faith tradition does not venerate her as Catholics do.

On a related note, why does the word “Roman” in Roman Catholic sometimes sound like a slur when used by non-Catholic Christians? I’m not trying to lump all non-Catholics together, I’m just trying to understand the negativity in some and how I can educate (if they are open) to what Catholics really believe as opposed to what they have been told we believe. I’m sorry this is so long. I really need some insight here.

Thank you,
Sharen

 

[puzzleannie]

I have in similar situations, responding to a similar tone of anger or venom, simply asked the individual why she seems have such a hostility and try to ask in a tone that assumes they have a good and sufficient reason and that I am willing to listen. The answers would surprise you and are invariable linked to the actions of some individual identified with the Church, never to any actual doctrine itself.

 

[OKAstro]

I’ve always heard it’s because they think (been told) that we worship Mary - and that worship should only be for God. Same thing with the Saints.

They do not accept that we can ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us and to intercede for us

 

[Ginger2]

I can’t speak for everyone. but my own view is we are not hostile toward the mother of our Lord, nor is Mary the source of any hostility on the Protestant side.

It is the way you treat her memory that offends us:

1. The Bible clearly states in **both Old and New Testaments **that we are forbidden from adding or taking away from Gods word. Yet, the RC has tons of extra-biblical doctrines conserning Mary.
2. The Catholic Church says Mary is queen of heaven. The Bible says: Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
3. The Catholic Church applies these words to the Virgin Mary: “I came out of the mouth of the Most High, the first-born before all creatures” (Ecclus. xxiv., 5).
   The Bible says Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature:” (Col 1:15)

The Bible says, "“I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42:8

I believe placing too much emphasis on Mary and giving her credit for what God has done with no help from human beings is more than dangerous.

1. Catholics encourage the use of prayers that give to Mary what rightfully belongs to God - alone!

(Bible is in Navy, St. Bonaventure is in Brown)

A CANTICLE ON THE MODEL OF ISAIAS (XII) by St. Bonaventure

Behold, Lady, thou art my savior: I will deal confidently in thee, and will
not be confounded.

Isa 43:11 "I am God, and besides me there is no savior".
Hosea 13:4 “….you shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.”

Compare the Psalms of David 148 &The Psalters of Mary 148:

1
Hallelujah! 1 Praise the LORD from the heavens; give praise in the heights.
**Let us praise Our Lady **in the heavens: glorify her in the highest.

2
Praise him, all you angels; give praise, all you hosts.
Praise her, all ye men and beasts: birds of the air, and fishes of the sea.

3
Praise him, sun and moon; give praise, all shining stars.
Praise her, sun and moon: stars, and the orbs of the planets.

4
Praise him, highest heavens, you waters above the heavens.
Praise her, Cherubim and Seraphim: thrones and dominations and powers.

5
Let them all praise the LORD’S name; for the LORD
Praise her, all ye legions of angels: praise her all order of heavenly
dwellers.

The Bible says, “I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42:8

The RC has consistently elevated Mary beyond her appointed position over the centuries - even though the earliest writings about her by church fathers say different:

The very first mention found in Church teaching denies the claim of Mary’s sinless perfection: (Origen at Alexandria (185-232))

Why wasn’t Origen called a heretic and excommunicated?
In fact, why is there no documentation from the Church during this same era found to disagree with Origen’s claim?

It was almost two hundred later before the first documented instance of a Church official making claim to the immaculate conception of Mary.(ie St. Ephram)

Unlike Origen, St. Ephram did have opposition to his claim. St. Basil & St. Chrysostom both disagreed with Ephram and claim Mary sinned.

St. Augustine wrote:
"…Neither is there anything to compel us to a denial of the mother of the Lord,… But He (Jesus) rather admonishes us to understand that, in respect of His being God, there was no mother for Him, - On Faith and the Creed, chapter 4, paragraph 5

 

[regression]

She said that she"had a lot of friends that were Catholic growing up and went along to (CCD?) with them.

CCD is what religious education used to be called. I went for a couple years when I went to a non-parochial school. When I started going to a Catholic school, we have a religion class so didn’t go to any “extra” classes. I think now it is called PRE (parish religious education).

 

[Ginger2]

I can’t speak for everyone. but my own view is we are not hostile toward the mother of our Lord, nor is Mary the source of any hostility on the Protestant side.

It is the way you treat her memory that offends us:

1. The Bible clearly states in **both Old and New Testaments **that we are forbidden from adding or taking away from Gods word. Yet, the RC has tons of extra-biblical doctrines conserning Mary.
2. The Catholic Church says Mary is queen of heaven. The Bible says: Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
3. The Catholic Church applies these words to the Virgin Mary: “I came out of the mouth of the Most High, the first-born before all creatures” (Ecclus. xxiv., 5).
   The Bible says Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature:” (Col 1:15)

The Bible says, "“I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42:8

I believe placing too much emphasis on Mary and giving her credit for what God has done with no help from human beings is more than dangerous.

1. Catholics encourage the use of prayers that give to Mary what rightfully belongs to God - alone!

(Bible is in Navy, St. Bonaventure is in Brown)

A CANTICLE ON THE MODEL OF ISAIAS (XII) by St. Bonaventure

Behold, Lady, thou art my savior: I will deal confidently in thee, and will
not be confounded.

Isa 43:11 "I am God, and besides me there is no savior".
Hosea 13:4 “….you shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.”

Compare the Psalms of David 148 &The Psalters of Mary 148:

1
Hallelujah! 1 Praise the LORD from the heavens; give praise in the heights.
**Let us praise Our Lady **in the heavens: glorify her in the highest.

2
Praise him, all you angels; give praise, all you hosts.
Praise her, all ye men and beasts: birds of the air, and fishes of the sea.

3
Praise him, sun and moon; give praise, all shining stars.
Praise her, sun and moon: stars, and the orbs of the planets.

4
Praise him, highest heavens, you waters above the heavens.
Praise her, Cherubim and Seraphim: thrones and dominations and powers.

5
Let them all praise the LORD’S name; for the LORD
Praise her, all ye legions of angels: praise her all order of heavenly
dwellers.

The Bible says, “I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42:8

The RC has consistently elevated Mary beyond her appointed position over the centuries - even though the earliest writings about her by church fathers say different:

The very first mention found in Church teaching denies the claim of Mary’s sinless perfection: (Origen at Alexandria (185-232))

Why wasn’t Origen called a heretic and excommunicated?
In fact, why is there no documentation from the Church during this same era found to disagree with Origen’s claim?

It was almost two hundred later before the first documented instance of a Church official making claim to the immaculate conception of Mary.(ie St. Ephram)

Unlike Origen, St. Ephram did have opposition to his claim. St. Basil & St. Chrysostom both disagreed with Ephram and claim Mary sinned.

St. Augustine wrote:
"…Neither is there anything to compel us to a denial of the mother of the Lord,… But He (Jesus) rather admonishes us to understand that, in respect of His being God, there was no mother for Him, - On Faith and the Creed, chapter 4, paragraph 5

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I’d like to hear from Catholics and non-Catholics. Is this something that is common? I don’t understand having contempt for Jesus’s mother, even if your particular faith tradition does not venerate her as Catholics do.

I don’t think people hate her, as in, her the historical Virgin Mary. I think many people simply dislike the status or power some Roman Catholics (and even Eastern Orthodox) give her. Some people just overreact to it and therefore their responses come across as extreme.

 

[shondrea]

I can’t speak for everyone. but my own view is we are not hostile toward the mother of our Lord, nor is Mary the source of any hostility on the Protestant side.

It is the way you treat her memory that offends us:

1. The Bible clearly states in **both Old and New Testaments **that we are forbidden from adding or taking away from Gods word. Yet, the RC has tons of extra-biblical doctrines conserning Mary.
2. The Catholic Church says Mary is queen of heaven. The Bible says: Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
3. The Catholic Church applies these words to the Virgin Mary: “I came out of the mouth of the Most High, the first-born before all creatures” (Ecclus. xxiv., 5).
   The Bible says Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature:” (Col 1:15)

The Bible says, "“I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42:8

I believe placing too much emphasis on Mary and giving her credit for what God has done with no help from human beings is more than dangerous.

1. Catholics encourage the use of prayers that give to Mary what rightfully belongs to God - alone!

(Bible is in Navy, St. Bonaventure is in Brown)

A CANTICLE ON THE MODEL OF ISAIAS (XII) by St. Bonaventure

Behold, Lady, thou art my savior: I will deal confidently in thee, and will
not be confounded.

Isa 43:11 "I am God, and besides me there is no savior".
Hosea 13:4 “….you shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.”

Compare the Psalms of David 148 &The Psalters of Mary 148:

1
Hallelujah! 1 Praise the LORD from the heavens; give praise in the heights.
**Let us praise Our Lady **in the heavens: glorify her in the highest.

2
Praise him, all you angels; give praise, all you hosts.
Praise her, all ye men and beasts: birds of the air, and fishes of the sea.

3
Praise him, sun and moon; give praise, all shining stars.
Praise her, sun and moon: stars, and the orbs of the planets.

4
Praise him, highest heavens, you waters above the heavens.
Praise her, Cherubim and Seraphim: thrones and dominations and powers.

5
Let them all praise the LORD’S name; for the LORD
Praise her, all ye legions of angels: praise her all order of heavenly
dwellers.

The Bible says, “I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42:8

The RC has consistently elevated Mary beyond her appointed position over the centuries - even though the earliest writings about her by church fathers say different:

The very first mention found in Church teaching denies the claim of Mary’s sinless perfection: (Origen at Alexandria (185-232))

Why wasn’t Origen called a heretic and excommunicated?
In fact, why is there no documentation from the Church during this same era found to disagree with Origen’s claim?

It was almost two hundred later before the first documented instance of a Church official making claim to the immaculate conception of Mary.(ie St. Ephram)

Unlike Origen, St. Ephram did have opposition to his claim. St. Basil & St. Chrysostom both disagreed with Ephram and claim Mary sinned.

St. Augustine wrote:
"…Neither is there anything to compel us to a denial of the mother of the Lord,… But He (Jesus) rather admonishes us to understand that, in respect of His being God, there was no mother for Him, - On Faith and the Creed, chapter 4, paragraph 5

1: just because soe pagan goddsss was called the queen of heaven doesn’t make the very title reproachful. They could have said, “sent up offerings to their God”. , a false God, but that wouldn’t mean we can’t call the REAL God God now does it?

2: You misunderstand the purpose of Catholic prayer. Prayer and worship are not the same thing and can in fact be mutually exclusive. Praying to Mary is no different than calling up your mo on the phone to say Hi, how are ya? Things are a little touch right now, keep me in mind

 

[Sufjon]

I’d like to hear from Catholics and non-Catholics. Is this something that is common? I don’t understand having contempt for Jesus’s mother, even if your particular faith tradition does not venerate her as Catholics do.
Sharen

Dear Friend Sharon: I am not Christian, but I have seen the same thing you are talking about among non-Catholic Christians on occasion. I can’t say that I understand it either, but the hostility sure seems real. I’m dumbfounded on that one.

Respectfully
Sufjon

 

[autdrew]

Its been my experience that the Roman sneer seems to come from those who either think we “worship” the Pope & elevate him above Jesus and/or believe that the Pope is/will be the Anti Christ of Revelation. The whole church as whore of babylon thing. Even if a person doesnt go to a particular church that teaches it, chances are, some of those ideas have filtered into their Christian understanding over the years. Especially the “Catholics worship Mary” ideas. If you repeat something often enough it becomes “true” until someone actually takes the time to learn otherwise.
I am also a convert from the Baptist side of the house, interesting journey, welcome home!

 

[puzzleannie]

I don’t think OP is necessarily referring someone who expresses doubt or criticism of Catholic teaching about Mary, excessive (in their eyes) reverence for Mary, or even the sueprstitious practices some people fall into regarding Mary. She is speaking specifically of hostility toward not only Mary herself, and who register disdain even hostility toward Catholics. If I understand OP she is especially puzzled about Catholics or former Catholics who show this outright hostility–not doubt, disagreement or even ignorance, but a loathing that can be actually acidic and downright cruel.

Other posters on this particular forum have here and elsewhere spelled out the doctrinal differences they have with Catholics not only about Mary but about other issues. They do so in a scholarly, reasoned way, not an emotionally charged, cruel or vitriolic way. OP is asking where the venom comes from.

 

[Ginger2]

1: just because soe pagan goddsss was called the queen of heaven doesn’t make the very title reproachful. They could have said, “sent up offerings to their God”. , a false God, but that wouldn’t mean we can’t call the REAL God God now does it?

2: You misunderstand the purpose of Catholic prayer. Prayer and worship are not the same thing and can in fact be mutually exclusive. Praying to Mary is no different than calling up your mo on the phone to say Hi, how are ya? Things are a little touch right now, keep me in mind

I never accused anyone of “worshipping” Mary.

Read the psalters paralleled to the Psalms again. It’s not merely a prayer as you claim. It is the Psalms written under inspiration of God altered to give that specific praise to Mary. I think it’s blasphemous.

 

[Elixir]

I’d like to hear from Catholics and non-Catholics. Is this something that is common? I don’t understand having contempt for Jesus’s mother, even if your particular faith tradition does not venerate her as Catholics do.

In my experience most non-Catholic Christians simply have zero understanding of what the Church actually teaches about Mary. There is contempt for what people think Catholicism teaches but very little actual knowledge of the truth of the matter.

Considering Catechisms are available just about everywhere there isn’t much of an excuse to attack without doing some reading.

Now, individual Catholics may act like they worship Mary but individuals will do what they will and do not represent the teaching of the Church.

It’s the Church people have contempt for, not Mary.

 

[Ginger2]

Hello to all,

I received an infraction for stating it is not Mary that offends me as a Protestant, but the way Catholics view Mary.

My post has been deleted, but I would like to apologize for offending you. I only meant to give an honest answer of the view I have so you would understand.

All I will say now is that I don’t think Catholics worship her.

Sincerely,

Ginger

 

[Reuben_J]

I never accused anyone of “worshipping” Mary.

Read the psalters paralleled to the Psalms again. It’s not merely a prayer as you claim. It is the Psalms written under inspiration of God altered to give that specific praise to Mary. I think it’s blasphemous.

I have been a Catholic all my life and to be honest, I have not heard about The Psalters of Mary 148. That may give you an idea regarding the said prayer. Note too the difference between prayer and devotion. Prayer used in a devotion has to be understood in the context of the devotion. Seen from an uninformed eyes, the prayer can be misleading but once the context is understood then we can see how reasonable it is.

 

[Ginger2]

I have been a Catholic all my life and to be honest, I have not heard about The Psalters of Mary 148. That may give you an idea regarding the said prayer. Note too the difference between prayer and devotion. Prayer used in a devotion has to be understood in the context of the devotion. Seen from an uninformed eyes, the prayer can be misleading but once the context is understood then we can see how reasonable it is.

I used that example because it is not officially promoted or used by the RC and I didn’t want to disparage specific payers that are used. I’d rather not comment any further as my post being completely deleted leaves me not knowing how much or little is safe to say.

I think I will just bow out of this discussion and let you either speculate as to what Protestant think or hear from some who have others reasons.

Have a great week!

 

[Reuben_J]

I don’t think OP is necessarily referring someone who expresses doubt or criticism of Catholic teaching about Mary, excessive (in their eyes) reverence for Mary, or even the sueprstitious practices some people fall into regarding Mary. She is speaking specifically of hostility toward not only Mary herself, and who register disdain even hostility toward Catholics. If I understand OP she is especially puzzled about Catholics or former Catholics who show this outright hostility–not doubt, disagreement or even ignorance, but a loathing that can be actually acidic and downright cruel.

Other posters on this particular forum have here and elsewhere spelled out the doctrinal differences they have with Catholics not only about Mary but about other issues. They do so in a scholarly, reasoned way, not an emotionally charged, cruel or vitriolic way. OP is asking where the venom comes from.

This thing happens and a reality among a section of non-Catholics towards Catholicism. Perhaps it explains why we even have phrase like anti-Catholic Christians. Certainly we can do without this in Christianity. To be fair, it can be said too about some Catholics who perhaps have similar attitude toward non-Catholics. No matter, but in cases like this our intergrity as Christains should be honestly examined whether we truly are following the way of Jesus (which is definitely not ). More realistically it reflects on the inviduals faith and even the church that’s responsible for the teaching that can give rise to its members hostility against other Christians.

 

[Javl]

The other day I was chatting with another mom from my son’s preschool. The topic of church came up, as she was telling me that her church (an independent church) was sponsoring the Community Day that weekend. When I mentioned that I’m Catholic, she kind of sneered. She said that she"had a lot of friends that were Catholic growing up and went along to (CCD?) with them. They were doing the “Mary Thing”. When I asked her what she meant, she said “the sacrements”. I couldn’t help but notice the vemom with which she said “Mary”. I’ve only been Catholic for a few months, but this isn’t the first time I have experienced a hostility toward Mary from some non-Catholics. I was raised Methodist and we basically thought about Mary at Christmas. But never anything negative.

I’d like to hear from Catholics and non-Catholics. Is this something that is common? I don’t understand having contempt for Jesus’s mother, even if your particular faith tradition does not venerate her as Catholics do.

On a related note, why does the word “Roman” in Roman Catholic sometimes sound like a slur when used by non-Catholic Christians? I’m not trying to lump all non-Catholics together, I’m just trying to understand the negativity in some and how I can educate (if they are open) to what Catholics really believe as opposed to what they have been told we believe. I’m sorry this is so long. I really need some insight here.

Thank you,
Sharen

The hostility that I have come across is based mostly on the writings of Lloraine Boetner and the comic book tracts of Jack Chick, both of whom profess to be Christian. Both are very vehemently anti-Catholic and have spread actual lies and made-up stories about Catholicism.

If you check further you will find that the woman has no actual facts to support her dislike, but is dependent on rumors and hearsay. An explanation usualy clears up the mis-conception(s).

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[JonNC]

=Sharen;7104850]… I was raised Methodist and we basically thought about Mary at Christmas. But never anything negative.

I think this is the more mainstream attitude. I think you experienced a view that, while there, is more on the fringe.

On a related note, why does the word “Roman” in Roman Catholic sometimes sound like a slur when used by non-Catholic Christians?

It was a slur, started out that way, just like the term “Lutheran” started as a slur.

I’m not trying to lump all non-Catholics together, I’m just trying to understand the negativity in some and how I can educate (if they are open) to what Catholics really believe as opposed to what they have been told we believe.

Some will listen, some won’t. Some may accept what you say, some won’t (by “accept” I don’t mean necessarily agree with). Just tell them the truth of Catholic teaching, but I wouldn’t waste too much time with those who refuse to listen, if I were you.

Jon

 

[Ginger2]

In my experience most non-Catholic Christians simply have zero understanding of what the Church actually teaches about Mary. There is contempt for what people think Catholicism teaches but very little actual knowledge of the truth of the matter.

Considering Catechisms are available just about everywhere there isn’t much of an excuse to attack without doing some reading.

Now, individual Catholics may act like they worship Mary but individuals will do what they will and do not represent the teaching of the Church.

It’s the Church people have contempt for, not Mary.

I was raised Catholic. I know exactly what the church teaches about Mary. I do not feel any contempt for Mary at all.