Why the hostility toward Mary?

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Somehow me and a group of friends got into a conversation about religion. Me being Catholic, one friend Jehova’s Witness, and not sure what my other friend was, I think he was Baptist. He was the one that made a comment along the lines of worshiping Mary and such, and I explained that it is not worship, and we do not pray to her, we ask her to intercede for us. His reply, “I know, I know, you don’t worship her like that, and I don’t have a problem with the Catholic Church, it’s just Mary, she can **** me.” I think that is pretty close to contempt for Mary.
Really! You are friends with a JW!!! And does your JW friend know you believe in the Trinity?

Oh… concerning your friend with the filthy mouth, you first said you don’t know what he is - then you feel justified arbitrarily asigning a “baptist” title to him. For all you know he isn’t Christian at all. In fact, I’m certain he isn’t!
 
Ginger maybe you are right. I think its us they hate:D
I’m sure there are some who hate Catholics in general…especially in Ireland. I know there are two or three in this forum who certainly give me the impression they loath me personally…I try to avoid them. 🙂

But, from either side, I’m sure it’s a very small minority. That is not at all what I think is going on. Not hating Mary nor hating Catholics.
 
I’m sure there are some who hate Catholics in general…especially in Ireland. I know there are two or three in this forum who certainly give me the impression they loath me personally…I try to avoid them. 🙂

But, from either side, I’m sure it’s a very small minority. That is not at all what I think is going on. Not hating Mary nor hating Catholics.
Lets hope you are right ging;)
 
Trust me… I was raised Catholic. I know very well what the Catholics teach about Mary…I even know the origins of these doctrines.

Yet, the standard Catholic response is that “even former catholics don’t understand the doctrines about Mary”
MOST ex-Catholics - including my 9 Evangelical siblings - don’t understand Marian Doctrines. MOST accuse Catholics of Mary-worship on some level.

Some of my siblings say that they were taught to worship Mary.
That is a bald-face lie.
 
Trust me… I was raised Catholic. I know very well what the Catholics teach about Mary…I even know the origins of these doctrines.

Yet, the standard Catholic response is that “even former catholics don’t understand the doctrines about Mary”
With all due respect, if you truly understood the Catholic Church and Her doctrines, you would not be a ‘former’.
 
Trust me… I was raised Catholic. I know very well what the Catholics teach about Mary…I even know the origins of these doctrines.
I’m gonna go out on a limb here, Ginger.
**Not only do I think that you don’t really understand Marian doctrines - I don’t think that you really understand Catholic doctrines in general.

This is not said as an insult - it’s just an observation from debating with you on other threads. I don’t know of one, single person who has a real knowledge of Catholic teachings and chose to leave the Church anyway. It’s usually a matter of misunderstanding, misconception or hearing another, feel-good message that was easier to adhere to than what the Church teaches.
 
I’ve always heard it’s because they think (been told) that we worship Mary - and that worship should only be for God. Same thing with the Saints.

They do not accept that we can ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us and to intercede for us
Exactly. Such a misconception (I used to have it as well) can easily be dispelled by quoting the Catechism on “Adoration” (which it clearly states is due to God alone) and the role of Mary in the Church.

But it hurts me to see our Beautiful, Blessed Mother being mocked and insulted by so many. Her love for us is met only with hatred by those claiming to follow her Son. It makes no sense.
 
I’m gonna go out on a limb here, Ginger.
Not only do I think that you don’t really understand Marian doctrines - I don’t think that you really understand *Catholic *doctrines in general.

This is not said as an insult - it’s just an observation from debating with you on other threads. I don’t know of one, single person who has a real knowledge of Catholic teachings and chose to leave the Church anyway. It’s usually a matter of misunderstanding, misconception or hearing another, feel-good message that was easier to adhere to than what the Church teaches.
Many ‘former’ Catholics (there really is no such animal) leave the Church for emotional reasons. Either they are angry at insert reason or person here or they are drawn to the smoke and mirrors of evangelicalism. Once the person is older, they hopefully mature and grow tired of the emotional manipulation of many evangelical and fundamentalist churches.
For me, as the magnet toward Rome was getting stronger, I was still attending occasionally a Christian Missionary Alliance church. One Sunday, they had great, uplifting, hand clapping, hand-raising music. Very emotional. Everyone was having a great time.
Except me.
I was bored to tears and it all seemed so lifeless and artificial.What would have attracted me years before, had no more meaning to me.
The hostility toward Mary is simply because it is SHE who draws them back.
 
Many ‘former’ Catholics (there really is no such animal) leave the Church for emotional reasons. Either they are angry at insert reason or person here or they are drawn to the smoke and mirrors of evangelicalism. Once the person is older, they hopefully mature and grow tired of the emotional manipulation of many evangelical and fundamentalist churches.
For me, as the magnet toward Rome was getting stronger, I was still attending occasionally a Christian Missionary Alliance church. One Sunday, they had great, uplifting, hand clapping, hand-raising music. Very emotional. Everyone was having a great time.
Except me.
I was bored to tears and it all seemed so lifeless and artificial.What would have attracted me years before, had no more meaning to me.
The hostility toward Mary is simply because it is SHE who draws them back.
**That’s a good observation.👍 **

I think that if many non-Catholics could understand that Mary CAN lead them back to her son - they wouldn’t have such a problem. They feel that if God is not persuading them directly - it’s not genuine.

**They forget that God can use whatever means he wants to draw the faithful closer to him. He can even used evil people to achive his means (Pharoah, for example). The Communion of Saints is very hard to swallow with your eyes closed . . .
 
In Gen. 3:15 we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history.
God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” The phrase “her seed” is not seen elsewhere in Scripture. The Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling Satan. This teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.
In John 2:4 and 19:26 Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.
Isaiah 7:14 and Matt. 1:23 tell us a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.”
Luke 1:35 tells us the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”).
In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth says Mary is the “Mother of my Lord” which is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God”. Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God.
Luke 1:28 states “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel. When Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the very words of God. The phrase “full of grace”. This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God.
A few verses down, Luke 1:42 says “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.”
Luke 1:48 says Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary”.
Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, Catholics are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.
 
MOST ex-Catholics - including my 9 Evangelical siblings - don’t understand Marian Doctrines. MOST accuse Catholics of Mary-worship on some level.

Some of my siblings say that they were taught to worship Mary.
That is a bald-face lie.
You believe they are deliberately lying? It can’t possibly be a misconception?

Since they are your siblings and you kow them best, can I ask why you think so many of your siblings would lie like this? Do they have a pattern of lying about other things or do they confine their lies to the RC?

Do they have some grudge against the RC that you are unaware of? It just seems so incredible to find this many Catholics in one family telling “bold face lies” about the exact same thing! Is it all men or all girls or a mix?

How many sibblings do you have? How many including you are still content members of the RC?

Do they tell other lies about the RC or are their lies confined to Marian Doctrines?

Wow, sorry for all the questions, but this is a very interesting and unusual situation.
 
Many ‘former’ Catholics (there really is no such animal) leave the Church for emotional reasons. Either they are angry at insert reason or person here or they are drawn to the smoke and mirrors of evangelicalism. Once the person is older, they hopefully mature and grow tired of the emotional manipulation of many evangelical and fundamentalist churches.
For me, as the magnet toward Rome was getting stronger, I was still attending occasionally a Christian Missionary Alliance church. One Sunday, they had great, uplifting, hand clapping, hand-raising music. Very emotional. Everyone was having a great time.
Except me.
I was bored to tears and it all seemed so lifeless and artificial.What would have attracted me years before, had no more meaning to me.
The hostility toward Mary is simply because it is SHE who draws them back.
**A couple of my sisters are *rabid *anti-Catholics. One of them (whose husband is the pastor of his own church) wrote a very un-flattering 10 page treatise about Mary that she gave to our mother, who is very devoted to the Blessed Mother. **

It was filled with the usual garbage about how Mary was not special at all - she was merely the means of Christ’s incarnation. She even stated that Christ could have been born of a harlot and it wouldn’t have mattered. She called it, “Mary, the Mother of Jesus, According to the Bible”. It is now part of their Church literature.

She said that Mary only gave birth to Jesus’ human nature, which is one of the most basic and elementary blunders a Christian can make. Jesus isn’t a nature - her is a Person. she gave birth to the 2nd PERSON of the Holy Trinity. Since Jesus unites to himself his two natures (100% divine and 100% human) - she gave birth to GOD. That is why the Council of Ephesus who defined the Doctrine of Christ’s Hypostatic Union also declared Mary, Theotokos (GOD-bearer).

I took it upon myself to write a 29-page response that pretty much buried her arguments. I say that only because she had her pastor-husband respond to me about it. He had all the same misconceptions and had been spoonfed all of the same lies that he learned at John MacArthur’s Masters College, where he received his doctorate.
 
You believe they are deliberately lying? It can’t possibly be a misconception?

Since they are your siblings and you kow them best, can I ask why you think so many of your siblings would lie like this? Do they have a pattern of lying about other things or do they confine their lies to the RC?

Do they have some grudge against the RC that you are unaware of? It just seems so incredible to find this many Catholics in one family telling “bold face lies” about the exact same thing! Is it all men or all girls or a mix?

How many sibblings do you have? How many including you are still content members of the RC?

Do they tell other lies about the RC or are their lies confined to Marian Doctrines?

Wow, sorry for all the questions, but this is a very interesting and unusual situation.
It’s all about the anti-Catholic message they were fed by others. It was my older sister who led them out, based on her anti-Catholic views. She (and her husband) worked on me for over a decade. Had it not been for the fact that I am so stubborn, I might have caved-in as well. I think God put my stubbornness to good use.

I simply got sick of not being able to answer her charges and attacks so I resolved to dig deep into my Catholic faith and got slammed in the face with utter shock and amazement. I discovered that everything she was saying was not only historically wrong - but, in many cases, embarassingly naive.


I am one of thirteen children (#10) - 6 girls and 7 boys. Not all of them are anti-Catholic. Some simply don’t believe in Catholic Doctrines but they can’t give a logical explanation why. They simply reject them. Many of them have since left my sister’s Church and have branched out into other Protestant denominations. One thing I can tell you is that they ALL left because of an abject ignorance of their Catholic faith. I was there and witnessed it. It continues to this day. One of my brothers actually left because of the anti-Catholic Jack Chick tracts that my sister used to try to indoctrinate us with. **

Now, only myself and 3 brothers are Catholic. However - we have studied and learned our faith and remain very staunch.
 
=Zenas;7110120]It goes without saying that Protestants and Catholics have a very different view of Mary. Protestants view Mary as a devout woman chosen by God to bear His Son, but still a sinner just like all the rest of us.
Not all Protestants. In Lutheran belief, the mariology is adiaphora. I happen to hold the position that, by the grace of God and not by her own doing, she may have been sinless. this makes her still a part of a sinful people, and in need of the Savior.
Since the Immaculate Conception is not expressly found in scripture, they reject it.
It is not that Lutherans reject it, though some do. We reject that there is explicit scriptural support to make it dogma. Again, adiaphora.
Moreover, in the view of many Protestants, the Immaculate Conception would not have been necessary because Jesus did not have Mary’s DNA. She was merely an incubator for flesh that was exclusively of the Holy Spirit, not a biological mother. There is even one school of thought that maintains Mary could not be the biological mother of Jesus because if she had been, Jesus would have inherited original sin. Imagine that!
I would reject this line of thought.
Protestants reject the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, even though it was affirmed by no less than Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Wesley. They truly believe that Mary was the mother of at least six other children, maybe more.
Again, for Lutherans, adiaphora. In fact, in some translations of the confessions, the term ever-virgin is used.
Protestants regard the title Mother of God as blasphemous because they can’t (won’t) wrap their minds around this concept that actually transcends time.
For Lutherans, Holy Theotokos is explicitly stated in the confessions.
Finally, Protestants reject the idea of the Assumption as being outside the Bible.
It is outside the Bible, at least explicitly, but the belief that she is with Christ is accepted amongst (many ) Lutherans. How this happened is not known. What we reject is a dogmatic statement that binds the conscience of the believer.
They also reject the idea of praying to Mary or any of the other saints.
this si true, but that does not exclude the acknowledgement that the Saints and Blessed Virgin do pray for the Church Militant, in a general way.
So, they believe Mary was a good woman given to a unique role, but one who lived and died and will be resurrected along with the rest of us at the end of the age.
Now, compare this with the Catholic view of Mary who sits at the right hand of Christ as Queen of Heaven, and who makes constant intercessions for us, and you see the two groups are talking about two different people. Protestants love and respect what they regard as the Mary of the Bible, but they do have considerable hostility toward the Catholic Mary who they believe is either a goddess of something so close to being a goddess that honoring her would be sinful. Sort of like honoring the pagan Minerva or Diana. Those Protestants who hate Mary regard the Catholic Mary as equally pagan.
Yes, it is sadly true, but I reject this POV based in ignorance of Catholic teaching.
Of course many Protestants just ignore Mary and never think about her except at Christmas.
Sad indeed.

Jon
 
**It’s all about the anti-**Catholic message they were fed by others. It was my older sister who led them out, based on her anti-Catholic views. She (and her husband) worked on me for over a decade. Had it not been for the fact that I am so stubborn, I might have caved-in as well. I think God put my stubbornness to good use.

I simply got sick of not being able to answer her charges and attacks so I resolved to dig deep into my Catholic faith and got slammed in the face with utter shock and amazement. I discovered that everything she was saying was not only historically wrong - but, in many cases, embarassingly naive.

I am one of thirteen children (#10) - 6 girls and 7 boys. Not all of them are anti-Catholic. Some simply don’t believe in Catholic Doctrines but they can’t give a logical explanation why. They simply* reject* them. Many of them have since left my sister’s Church and have branched out into other Protestant denominations. One thing I can tell you is that they ALL left because of an abject ignorance of their Catholic faith. I was there and witnessed it. It continues to this day. One of my brothers actually left because of the anti-Catholic Jack Chick tracts that my sister used to try to indoctrinate us with.

**Now, only **myself and 3 brothers are Catholic. However - we have studied and learned our faith and remain very staunch.
Elvis they can’t give a Logical explanation because there isn’t one. But I have to say one thing about you :eek: You are amazing!! You have really taken alot of time to learn your faith, and I think thats awesome.
 
Elvis they can’t give a Logical explanation because there isn’t one. But I have to say one thing about you :eek: You are amazing!! You have really taken alot of time to learn your faith, and I think thats awesome.
**Thanks for the kind words. **
I really do think it’s because God used my extreme stubbornness to His glory.
 
I think that if many non-Catholics could understand that Mary CAN lead them back to her son - they wouldn’t have such a problem…
Elvisman: I think you should make a distinction in your approach between Non-Catholics from a different faith tradition and Returning-catholics. I think the latter will be open to the pull of Mary back to Jesus. I believe for those coming from other traditions, it is trust in Jesus that will lead them to appreciate Mary.

I also don’t think, as a debate strategy, it is very useful to question the motives of people who don’t hold your view of Mary. While what they are saying may seem uninformed to you, the fact that they are discussing it at all should be seen as an opportunity.
 
Elvisman: I think you should make a distinction in your approach between Non-Catholics from a different faith tradition and Returning-catholics. I think the latter will be open to the pull of Mary back to Jesus. I believe for those coming from other traditions, it is trust in Jesus that will lead them to appreciate Mary.

I also don’t think, as a debate strategy, it is very useful to question the motives of people who don’t hold your view of Mary. While what they are saying may seem uninformed to you, the fact that they are discussing it at all should be seen as an opportunity.
I don’t believe I DID lump everybody together. That’s why I purposely used words llike “most” (not all).

I am speaking from personal experience - not from a complete knowledege of every non-Catholic or ex-Catholic. I’m not questioning their motives - I’m questioning their knowledge.

In the 6 years that I have been on this forum I have spoken to literally thousands of Protestants and not ONE of them really understood Catholic Doctrines.

To the credit of many of them, however, they knew more about Catholic doctrines than many ex-Catholics. That’s my whole point.
 
Thanks for the kind

words.
I really do think it’s because God used my extreme stubbornness to His glory.
Amen! I have a similar situation. I am the only one left in my family who is Catholic.
Let me say this to those who disrespect and denigrate my Blessed Mother, she IS the Holy Mother of God in every sense except conception. She gave birth to Him, she suckled Him, she changed his diapers, she agonized over his illnesses, she comforted Him when He skinned His knee, she spanked Him when He got into mischief(He WAS True God and True Man) she counseled Him when He was a teenager(He remained obedient to them in all things) She asked His first miracle and she held Him in her arms when He was dead. If that is NOT a mother, I do not know what is. If you want to get on the fightin’ side of me, just talk bad about my Blessed Mother, Mother of God and Queen of Heaven.
 
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