Why the hostility toward Mary?

[Kenaz999]

ppl dislike mary because its a female in a other wise male dependent religon

 

[mark_a]

On a related note, why does the word “Roman” in Roman Catholic sometimes sound like a slur when used by non-Catholic Christians?

Because they mean it as a slur.

How unfortunate for them that their pastors pass their own ignorance on to them, because lets face it, where else would they get it?

 

[hosemonkey]

ppl dislike mary because its a female in a other wise male dependent religon

Explain, otherwise nonsensical statement.

 

[JonNC]

ppl dislike mary because its a female in a other wise male dependent religon

Because its a female?

*"[Mary is the] highest woman and **the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ **. . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough." *
-Luther

I would contend this dispells your conception of both how people feel about the Blessed Virgin, and the nature of Christianity.

Jon

 

[Kenaz999]

sorry i refer to it because i dnt beleave parts of the bible like the virgin birth of ur lord. i said that all of the abrohamic faiths have a male dominant thology (i suck at spellin forgive me lol) god is a male probverb he created adam 1st and made eve out of him sayin that he the male was domiant, mary was just used 2 give birth.

I hope i make sense 2 u

 

[JHow]

In the 6 years that I have been on this forum I have spoken to literally thousands of Protestants and not ONE of them really understood Catholic Doctrines.

And diagnosing their condition as “ignorance” cleared it all up for them? Do you think Ginger was convinced or did she just drop the conversation?

The point I would make is that there is more than just intellect at play when a protestant is trying to understand Marian teachings. Someone taught you, someone explained it to you, someone drew the fine distinctions for you. Not everyone had that benefit. I also don’t think you understand the gut-level resistance that a native-born protestant has to this aspect of catholic doctrine - something that I don’t think is wholly conquered by pure debate. I am skeptical that beginning conversations with a discussion of Mary is the best way to convince protestants of the rightness of the catholic faith.

To the credit of many of them, however, they knew more about Catholic doctrines than many ex-Catholics. That’s my whole point.

And you could just as well add: “and many current-never-left Catholics”. Ignorance is not uncommon, anywhere. Whether you admit it or not, you are questioning motive here. The implication is that sloppy, undisciplined person, didn’t do their homework - that is what produces ignorance.

 

[hosemonkey]

sorry i refer to it because i dnt beleave parts of the bible like the virgin birth of ur lord. i said that all of the abrohamic faiths have a male dominant thology (i suck at spellin forgive me lol) god is a male probverb he created adam 1st and made eve out of him sayin that he the male was domiant, mary was just used 2 give birth.

I hope i make sense 2 u

Eye tink dat U need tu werk on yr speling, syntax an grammer and then come bak. U ar nt texting.
I know that your usage is common among today’s generation, but it jars the eyes of us older folk.

 

[Kenaz999]

Alright i apoligize im just used to typeing like this tho i cnt spell u keep ignoring what i said.

 

[elvisman]

And diagnosing their condition as “ignorance” cleared it all up for them? Do you think Ginger was convinced or did she just drop the conversation?

The point I would make is that there is more than just intellect at play when a protestant is trying to understand Marian teachings. Someone taught you, someone explained it to you, someone drew the fine distinctions for you. Not everyone had that benefit. I also don’t think you understand the gut-level resistance that a native-born protestant has to this aspect of catholic doctrine - something that I don’t think is wholly conquered by pure debate. I am skeptical that beginning conversations with a discussion of Mary is the best way to convince protestants of the rightness of the catholic faith.

**Intellect has nothing to do with what I’m talking about.
Please don’t put words in my mouth. Accusing them of not being of a certain intellect would be akin to saying they were stupid. That is NOT what I’m saying. ****What I *AM ***saying is that there is a certain level of spiritual laziness on the part of the ex-Catholic.

---

**As for who taught me – how do YOU know I was taught or had anything explained? That is a pretty arrogant statement – assuming you know this. I already explained a few posts back that my brother and I took it upon OURSELVES (with much prayer) to look into the anti-Catholic charges my sister was making.

And you could just as well add: “and many current-never-left Catholics”. Ignorance is not uncommon, anywhere. Whether you admit it or not, you are questioning motive here. The implication is that sloppy, undisciplined person, didn’t do their homework - that is what produces ignorance.

Like I said above – there IS a level of spiritual laziness on the part of ex-Catholics. Leaving the fullness of truth for a partial truth is the product of ignorance. Self-imposed ignorance = laziness.

 

[hosemonkey]

Alright i apoligize im just used to typeing like this tho i cnt spell u keep ignoring what i said.

No one is ignoring what you said. You are saying that the Mother of God was a mere receptacle, a “carrier” for the Son of God to reside in until His Birth. What you are asserting is that God could have used anyone or anything to facilitate the birth of His Son on earth. Correct? Wouldn’t even need to be human. Right? Why was not Jesus born of a mare? Or a cow? Just a receptacle. Right? No! God chose a sinless virgin to bear His sinless and divine Son. No one or nothing could have substituted. She was conceived without sin so that she could carry Him and raise Him without sin. To be His mother in all things. Only she was worthy. Those who assert that the Mother of God was “just” an ordinary woman, have no idea of the purpose and intention of Almighty God in bringing His Son to earth for the redemtion of mankind. If you believe that Holy Mary was “Just” a receptacle, you denigrate her and all women in this belief.

 

[Ginger2]

MOST ex-Catholics - including my 9 Evangelical siblings - don’t understand Marian Doctrines. MOST accuse Catholics of Mary-worship on some level.

Some of my siblings say that they were taught to worship Mary.
That is a bald-face lie.

I simpathize with you. It must be difficult to be at odds with so many of your siblings.

You never answered these questions:
Do you believe they are deliberately lying? It can’t possibly be a misconception?

Can I ask why you think so many of your siblings would lie like this? Do they have a pattern of lying about other things or do they confine their lies to the RC?

It’s just such an unusual situation.

 

[hosemonkey]

Ginger2,
Why did you leave the True Church for the maze of protestantism? Were you also not diligent enough in the study of the Truth of the Catholic religion?

 

[Ginger2]

Because they mean it as a slur.

How unfortunate for them that their pastors pass their own ignorance on to them, because lets face it, where else would they get it?

Excuse me. I do not use Roman as a slur. It is what we called ourselves when I was growing up. I was Roman Catholic.

However, I might be able to shed some light in this area as I made a new friend as a child and one day she told me she couldn’t play with me anymore because I was Roman Catholic and we killed Jesus. I didn’t understand until much later that she was associating the Catholic Churcu with the Roman Empire who crucified our Lord.

I am amused by Catholic’s ability on this site to se into a person’s heart and know their motives. Statements like this and much worse are par for the course on this Forum and then you wonder why so many Protestants here seem to dislike you???

Just something for you to think about…

 

[Izdaari]

I’ve never run into anyone who was hostile to Mary. Hostile to the Catholic Church’s Marian Doctrines, sure, because in most Protestant views, at least some of them are heretical (I’m not saying they are or aren’t, I’m just reporting). But not to Mary herself. I’m sure all would agree she deserves the greatest admiration and respect.

 

[hosemonkey]

However, I might be able to shed some light in this area as I made a new friend as a child and one day she told me she couldn’t play with me anymore because I was Roman Catholic and we killed Jesus. I didn’t understand until much later that she was associating the Catholic Church with the Roman Empire who crucified our Lord.

By your statement you have proven and validated his point. Anti-Catholics get it right from the scource. Pastors, Aunts and Uncles, friends and playmates, Sunday School teachers and co-workers. All spread the poisoned word and help to keep it alive. I have spoken to literally hundreds of people who spout the most bizarre assertions about Catholicism. And when I ask them from whence these beliefs and assertions come, they say, “Oh, my Aunt minnie told me this when I was little.” “My Pastor preached on this two Sundays ago, and he’s a very Godly man.” “Two of my co-workers are ex-Catholics and they ought to know.” You should see the looks on some faces when I tell them the Truth. Most of it is not hatred, it is pure ignorance and worse, closed minded-ness. And, praise God, sometimes I see looks of pure longing and envy and requests for more Truth. Some have returned to or have entered the Church, because they have a deep hunger for the Truth. “I want what you have, Dave.” Many have said that to me.

 

[Reuben_J]

It’s not a matter of doubting you are telling the truth from your perception, but I have been repeatedly accused saying things I didn’t say, and when I try to explain, I’m told it doesn’t matter whether I said it or not, because I believe it - even when I’ve stated what I believe, they say "no you don’t believe that!

So, I know very well how easy it is to misunderstand someone in a forum.

I am just trying to figure out if the person meant their statements and you interpreted them or if he/she just wasn’t clear causing you to misunderstand OR another possibility is you expected a certain response and interpreted the statement according to a preconceived idea.

Ginger

I should not have responded to your asking me about who and what they are. You actually cannot comment on my experience since you are not there to have inside knowledge of it. There is the facial expression, the disdain, the tone and the body language that convey a message that a person does not like certain thing. To assess only from what they say is sometimes insufficient if you have not actually talked to them.

You insist that no Christians are in contempt of Mary and you justified that by saying you have never met ones who do. I could have just said maybe you have not met enough Christians to know that there is who do.

The question actually,** is there Christians who have contempt for Mary? My answer is yes and I do not agree with you that there is none.**

I just want to tell you – I do not have a preconceived idea- I find that statement is insulting, one that I resent and a question to my integrity and has no place in a discussion forum.

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben,
It’s all explained by motive, they are intent on insulting Catholics (not debate Mary’ role)

Unfortunately, these Christians have learned Mary is a good ‘soft-spot’ to attack with Catholics.

Hi Todd. That might be possible but I made it clear that there was no distinction (about whether they were insulting Catholics). By putting Mary at a level of ordinary woman - that in itself is contempt, for obviously she is not. Even for some of you who don’t believe that she is sinless would not, I suppose, consider she as just ordinary.

 

[JHow]

Intellect has nothing to do with what I’m talking about.
Please don’t put words in my mouth. Accusing them of not being of a certain intellect would be akin to saying they were stupid.

You missed MY point here, which is that resistance to Marian doctrine is not just intellectual (reason), but also has emotional roots in their previous style of worship. I was not commenting on their “level of intelligence”. I was going for the first definition of the word “intellect”:

the power or faculty of the mind by which one knows or understands, as distinguished from that by which one feels and that by which one wills; the understanding; the faculty of thinking and acquiring knowledge.

That is NOT what I’m saying. What I AM saying is that there is a certain level of spiritual laziness on the part of the ex-Catholic.

Yes, I actually got you the first time. You were commenting on their laziness, not their mental abilities.

As for who taught me – how do YOU know I was taught or had anything explained? That is a pretty arrogant statement – assuming you know this. I already explained a few posts back that my brother and I took it upon OURSELVES (with much prayer) to look into the anti-Catholic charges my sister was making.

I read your description of how you educated yourself on doctrine in response to your sister, but I would guess (I don’t want to put words in your mouth ) your love and appreciation of Mary did not start there. Did I read you wrong or did you not grow up in a Catholic famliy? Were you not exposed to images, statues, rosaries, May Crownings from an early age? If not, please don’t take things personally.

My point is that the native protestant doesn’t have these things in his/her past. These things are out of their experience, and while you can debate the truth of it, you also need to consider the emotional aspects that go along with it.

Like I said above – there IS a level of spiritual laziness on the part of ex-Catholics. Leaving the fullness of truth for a partial truth is the product of ignorance. Self-imposed ignorance = laziness.

And I am simply asking you to consider whether this debate style of yours really wins arguments about Mary or not? I don’t disagree with your positions, but I think, particularly in the case of the native-protestant, you really don’t understand that person’s situation and what is likely to get them to see the truth about Mary, assuming that is your goal in debating these points.

At any rate, good luck. Happy debating.

 

[Ginger2]

By your statement you have proven and validated his point. Anti-Catholics get it right from the scource. Pastors, Aunts and Uncles, friends and playmates, Sunday School teachers and co-workers. All spread the poisoned word and help to keep it alive. I have spoken to literally hundreds of people who spout the most bizarre assertions about Catholicism. And when I ask them from whence these beliefs and assertions come, they say, “Oh, my Aunt minnie told me this when I was little.” “My Pastor preached on this two Sundays ago, and he’s a very Godly man.” “Two of my co-workers are ex-Catholics and they ought to know.” You should see the looks on some faces when I tell them the Truth. Most of it is not hatred, it is pure ignorance and worse, closed minded-ness. And, praise God, sometimes I see looks of pure longing and envy and requests for more Truth. Some have returned to or have entered the Church, because they have a deep hunger for the Truth. “I want what you have, Dave.” Many have said that to me.

Well, I’m 50 years old and she’s the only one I’ve ever heard that from - either when I was Catholic or Protestant - and she was just a child, as was I. When I figured out what she meant, I didn’t think of it the way you guys seem to. I just assumed she didn’t understand the history and associated “Roman” with the Roman Empire whose guards arrested and crucified Jesus. BUT I NEVER, thought her parents taught her that!!! In fact I’m certain she came to that conclusion on her own as we were allowed to play together after that. If it were her parents spouting out ignorant assertions we would not have ever gotten back together.

 

[Ginger2]

I should not have responded to your asking me about who and what they are. You actually cannot comment on my experience since you are not there to have inside knowledge of it. There is the facial expression, the disdain, the tone and the body language that convey a message that a person does not like certain thing. To assess only from what they say is sometimes insufficient if you have not actually talked to them.

You insist that no Christians are in contempt of Mary and you justified that by saying you have never met ones who do. I could have just said maybe you have not met enough Christians to know that there is who do.

The question actually,** is there Christians who have contempt for Mary? My answer is yes and I do not agree with you that there is none.**

I just want to tell you – I do not have a preconceived idea- I find that statement is insulting, one that I resent and a question to my integrity and has no place in a discussion forum.

I’m not saying there is no one that has contempt for Mary. I’m saying this is not mainstream as some seem to think. I am also saying there is much misunderstand online whether it be emails, IM’s or forums.

I grew up Catholic and never experienced all these people you guys say are out there. You sound like it is 90% of Protestants and I just don’t see how that can be accurate when the only time in 50 years I experienced any even remotely resembling what you all describe was the one little girl. And it was not something she was taught it appeared to be a misconception of a young child.