Why the hostility toward Mary?

[mangy_dog]

Mary was a sinner.

Mary was no more than an incubator. (Independent Fundamental Baptist)

. I suggest that you go to confession or whatever it is protestant baptists do when they have sinned and ask God for forgiveness for insulting His Mother.

The Immaculate, Perpetual Virigin, Mother of God surely forgives you… therefore I forgive you also.

 

[dianaiad]

Zenas;7111103:

Mary was a sinner.

Mary was no more than an incubator. (Independent Fundamental Baptist)

Why?

 

[PRmerger]

Why?

Actually, it was not a “necessary” grace but a “fitting” grace.

Just like if the Queen of England were to come to my house, it would not be necessary that I clean it up, but it would be fitting.

 

[dianaiad]

Actually, it was not a “necessary” grace but a “fitting” grace.

Just like if the Queen of England were to come to my house, it would not be necessary that I clean it up, but it would be fitting.

I can understand why some would consider this to be a fitting grace. I still have to ask…'why?"

Back to the scriptures that state that everybody has sinned, period…is it necessary that Mary never have sinned,

…or simply necessary that she sincerely repented as often as she did, and, perhaps, never committed the same sin twice?

The reason I’m asking is…if Jesus is fully man as well as fully God, then being born to anybody who is somehow so much greater than any other human being doesn’t make Him ‘fully human,’ seems to me. HE was certainly tempted to sin, and by the master of temptation.

I think that one of the most remarkable things about Mary is that she was just a woman, like all other women; she wasn’t given special treatment at her birth, or during her lifetime to help her be who she was; she simply was. In other words, she lived a life that the rest of use really can aspire to, in honor, in holiness, in charity and in simply being a perfect daughter (and mother) of God.

If, in order to be who she was, God had to step in and make her a superwoman who was never tempted and never had to deal with the evil the rest of us do, what hope does that leave the rest of us?

No, in a very real way, I can’t help but think that this insistance upon making her born innocent (when the rest of us aren’t) and having never been tempted to sin, living a life that is impossible for us to consider and understand, much less emulate–that lessens her accomplishments. After all, a puppet who has been carved to be incredibly beautiful, and manipulated to be utterly good–the hero in all the shows–what credit is there to the puppet? It’s all the puppeteer. Praising the puppet truly is idol worship; it’s not real.

But you take an ordinary young girl, like all other young girls, raised well and faced with what she was faced with–and have HER excercise the faith and courage it took to bear and raise Jesus the Christ…now THAT is a woman worth incredible respect and honor.

My opinion, of course.

I believe that Mary was born innocent–as we all are. I believe that she lived a very ordinary childhood–for those times; she had great parents, was raised well, and had incredible faith; more than just about anybody I can think of. She had a calling greater than pretty much anybody else has, before or since, and she 'magnified it."

She gave her life to God–and to her family.

…and she, fully human in the way all women are, freely chose to do so. There is no more honor that can be given her than this; to acknowledge that she did this amazing, glorious thing–without extra help that is unavailable to the rest of us.

Just her faith, her determination, and her free will.

 

[Reuben_J]

I can understand why some would consider this to be a fitting grace. I still have to ask…'why?"

Back to the scriptures that state that everybody has sinned, period…is it necessary that Mary never have sinned,

…

If, in order to be who she was, God had to step in and make her a superwoman who was never tempted and never had to deal with the evil the rest of us do, what hope does that leave the rest of us?

…

While your argument, on the other side of the coin, certainly makes sense, we certainly believe it is not like that in the scripture. Jesus the man would be irrespective of whether her mother sins or not. If we think along this line, then what about him being born of no human father?

In any case, Jesus asks us to be perfect as the Father is perfect. Can we as human be perfect? WE know the answer to that, which is no. But with God nothing is impossible.

Your last paragraph which I enact above does not apply and is a non sequitor.

Edit:
and of course, why? Been answered many times - but it got to do with the vessel of God. He must be born of nothing unclean and sin. The Ark of the Covenant for example - nothing unclean must sacrilege it.

 

[dianaiad]

While your argument, on the other side of the coin, certainly makes sense, we certainly believe it is not like that in the scripture. Jesus the man would be irrespective of whether her mother sins or not. If we think along this line, then what about him being born of no human father?

In any case, Jesus asks us to be perfect as the Father is perfect. Can we as human be perfect? WE know the answer to that, which is no. But with God nothing is impossible.

Your last paragraph which I enact above does not apply and is a non sequitor.

Edit:
and of course, why? Been answered many times - but it got to do with the vessel of God. He must be born of nothing unclean and sin. The Ark of the Covenant for example - nothing unclean must sacrilege it.

What about any of my post was a non-sequitur? (just curious…)

Anyway…please remember that, as a Mormon, I firmly believe that ALL of us were born innocent; that is, yes, I believe in the 'Immaculate Conception" for Mary. The point is, though, that it wasn’t unique. All of us have been born ‘immaculately.’ Without sin.

The trick is to stay that way, one way or the other…either by never sinning–or by repenting constantly.

 

[Reuben_J]

What about any of my post was a non-sequitur? (just curious…)

Because what Mary is, in order to be the Mother of God, has nothing to do with us (that we should be sinless; or to be like her; or it makes our chances much less to be saints, et al).

Anyway…please remember that, as a Mormon, I firmly believe that ALL of us were born innocent; that is, yes, I believe in the 'Immaculate Conception" for Mary. The point is, though, that it wasn’t unique. All of us have been born ‘immaculately.’ Without sin.

The trick is to stay that way, one way or the other…either by never sinning–or by repenting constantly.

As I said your earlier argument makes sense.

It’s just that we don’t understand and believe it that way.

You are bringing up another topic by saying we are born immaculate.

 

[dianaiad]

Because what Mary is, in order to be the Mother of God, has nothing to do with us (that we should be sinless; or to be like her; or it makes our chances much less to be saints, et al).

As I said your earlier argument makes sense.

It’s just that we don’t understand and believe it that way.

You are bringing up another topic by saying we are born immaculate.

Yes, I am aware that this is another, and very big, topic.

However, our view of it is on topic when we are discussing the idea of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. After all, it is why we can’t say 'oh, she was TOO born under the burden of original sin!" …but that our agreement that she was not means something special and specific to Mary.

But yes, the ‘we are born immaculate’ is a whole 'nuther can of worms altogether.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’m not sure Diana

But the fact God before Jesus Christ thought what? Mary. And she was the plan.

And the reality that were researching ancient civilization. Where in the Bible is any female playing a significant role? Yet Her role is clearly pointed out. Not sensationalized and rightfully so. None the less…

The fact God sent the Angels and greeted Her HAIL MARY. I believe theres a hugh message there. That transends into today and how women are treated throughout the world also.

Have you really watched this? This certainly drives home a point about Mary. What could this be? Conspiracy? How do we deny the gravity of this?

youtube.com/user/marimina9

While God is the Author of LIfe and its “his” Kingdom we seek. Mary plays a significant role. And it appears even more so today.

If I told you how many years I denied this you wouldn’t believe me. Male ego wouldn’t allow that thinking. I could by-pass all females and speak directly to God.

How time changes ones learned behaviors though.

 

[GaryTaylor]

mangy dog;7136650:

Why?

How does Jesus Christ arrive sinless? How could it be otherwise?

If in fact what you saying was right. How would Christ have possibly had the opportunity to accomplish what he did? He struggled with the Flesh as it was. Saddled with Sin as all of us are. How would he have accomplished what he did? God/Holy Spirit = no sin. How could he possibly be God from your thinking?

Think of the Crucifixtion and what Christ said to God. He suffered in the flesh at that moment as all of us here would have. And in a moment of pain and suffering he wasn’t sure what was going to happen. “My God why has thou forsaken me” This is Christ without sin saying this.

He couldn’t have accomplished everything to this point with sin. And more importantly he couldn’t be God with Sin. He was God in the flesh, God has no sin.

 

[PRmerger]

What about any of my post was a non-sequitur? (just curious…)

Anyway…please remember that, as a Mormon, I firmly believe that ALL of us were born innocent; that is, yes, I believe in the 'Immaculate Conception" for Mary. The point is, though, that it wasn’t unique. All of us have been born ‘immaculately.’ Without sin.

The trick is to stay that way, one way or the other…either by never sinning–or by repenting constantly.

Then who is St. Paul talking about when he says “all have sinned”?

Do Mormons believe this “all” is literal?

Or do they believe, like the Catholics, that there are exceptions?

 

[PRmerger]

In other words, she lived a life that the rest of use really can aspire to, in honor, in holiness, in charity and in simply being a perfect daughter (and mother) of God.

That’s exactly what the CC teaches–that Mary is a model for all Christians.

If, in order to be who she was, God had to step in and make her a superwoman who was never tempted and never had to deal with the evil the rest of us do, what hope does that leave the rest of us?

Now, this is NOT what the CC teaches. We don’t believe she was never tempted. Nor that she didn’t have free will.

 

[Cat_Herder]

If, in order to be who she was, God had to step in and make her a superwoman who was never tempted and never had to deal with the evil the rest of us do, what hope does that leave the rest of us?

Do you realize that Jesus Himself was tempted? From where do you get the idea that being without original sin means you’re never tempted?

Not from the Bible, that’s for sure. Ask Adam and Eve if they were tempted.

 

[pismopal]

Thank you very much.
I was just asking, because elvisman was hinting at ex-Catholics (and now even mentions ex-Catholics) one of which I am.

Perhaps…you were never actually one of us. Isn’t this a distinct possibility?

 

[dianaiad]

dianaiad;7138214:

How does Jesus Christ arrive sinless? How could it be otherwise?

If in fact what you saying was right. How would Christ have possibly had the opportunity to accomplish what he did? He struggled with the Flesh as it was. Saddled with Sin as all of us are. How would he have accomplished what he did? God/Holy Spirit = no sin. How could he possibly be God from your thinking?

Think of the Crucifixtion and what Christ said to God. He suffered in the flesh at that moment as all of us here would have. And in a moment of pain and suffering he wasn’t sure what was going to happen. “My God why has thou forsaken me” This is Christ without sin saying this.

He couldn’t have accomplished everything to this point with sin. And more importantly he couldn’t be God with Sin. He was God in the flesh, God has no sin.

Gary, we aren’t talking about Jesus here. I believe that Catholics and Mormons both agree that He was sinless. WE are talking about the idea that MARY was 'sinless."

 

[dianaiad]

Then who is St. Paul talking about when he says “all have sinned”?

Do Mormons believe this “all” is literal?

Or do they believe, like the Catholics, that there are exceptions?

The only exception we know about is Jesus Himself.

 

[dianaiad]

That’s exactly what the CC teaches–that Mary is a model for all Christians.

Now, this is NOT what the CC teaches. We don’t believe she was never tempted. Nor that she didn’t have free will.

OK, that’s a problem…because right here in this forum several Catholics have come right out and said that Mary was sinless (never tempted.) Now I’m quite sure that you believe precisely as you claim you do. Can you give me an official declaration from the church regarding this issue? Is it in the catechism anywhere?

…'cause I"m not going to argue with any Catholic who tells me what they believe about this thing or that thing–because no matter what it is, they’re right!

 

[dianaiad]

Do you realize that Jesus Himself was tempted? From where do you get the idea that being without original sin means you’re never tempted?

Not from the Bible, that’s for sure. Ask Adam and Eve if they were tempted.

I"m going from statements from a couple of posters HERE who told me that Mary was never tempted, and that she lived sinless. As I asked PRmerger, can you give me the official church position on this?

Diana

 

[GaryTaylor]

GaryTaylor;7138661:

Gary, we aren’t talking about Jesus here. I believe that Catholics and Mormons both agree that He was sinless. WE are talking about the idea that MARY was 'sinless."

Thats above the other post. Thoughts on the video?

And the second post relates to Mary without sin. How could Christ be sinless if Mary wasn’t?

 

[Cat_Herder]

OK, that’s a problem…because right here in this forum several Catholics have come right out and said that Mary was sinless (never tempted.)

“Sinless” and “never tempted” are not synonyms.

Jesus was sinless. He was tempted.

Adam and Eve were sinless. They were tempted and they fell.