Why the hostility toward Mary?

[Janet1983]

Perhaps…you were never actually one of us. Isn’t this a distinct possibility?

Huh? Apart from my granny I was probably the most Catholic member of my family…

 

[GaryTaylor]

Exactly, and the Stance is Adam, Eve, Mary and Jesus all born without sin.

Its in the Catholic catechism you could read it.

Diana the fact that Christ is sinless directly relates to Mary being sinless. If Mary is born with Sin? Then so will Christ be. Its impossible to be any other way? Or could you explain that?

Thats the point of the post on Christ above.

Diana you agee with the entire post on Christ above? If you believe what I said there. Which I’m assuming you do by the way you responded about both Church beliefs. Then how could you not grasp Mary without sin?

I’m missing the block which won’t allow you to grasp this.

 

[PRmerger]

The only exception we know about is Jesus Himself.

Well, and the billions of souls that have been created, right? Until they commit their first sin, according to Mormon teaching?

 

[Janet1983]

Exactly, and the Stance is Adam, Eve, Mary and Jesus all born without sin.

I actually do agree with you except for one thing: I do not believe that Mary was sinless. She was probably a woman after God’s own heart, but sinless? I doubt that.

Diana the fact that Christ is sinless directly relates to Mary being sinless. If Mary is born with Sin? Then so will Christ be. Its impossible to be any other way? Or could you explain that?

If Christ’s sinlessness is directly related to Mary’s sinlessness, then why weren’t her parents sinless? That is the same logic.
Yes, God can create a woman sinless, but why then would it be impossible for Him to come down to earth and be sinless if His mother was not sinless?

It doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[dianaiad]

dianaiad;7138887:

Thats above the other post. Thoughts on the video?

I didn’t actually get to watch the video; the quality was pretty scratchy, and the download time was abominable. However, I understand that it mostly relates at least one story of a Marian apparition, right?

I haven’t ever ‘gone’ there, Gary. I do understand that even the Catholic Church does not require belief in Marian apparitions for salvation. That said, I do believe that these people believe that they saw what they claim they did, and their faith in Mary operates in this manner. I don’t happen to think that it’s Mary they saw, but…I don’t think that it’s the devil or his minions, either. Faith works in interesting ways.

and the second post relates to Mary without sin. How could Christ be sinless if Mary wasn’t?

…because He is God and she isn’t?

Your question, you realize, begs another; if Jesus the Christ required a sinless mother in order to be sinless Himself, then how much more would Mary have required that HER mother be sinless–by the same logic?

If she did NOT require a sinless mother to be sinless herself, then why would Jesus require HER to be so?

May I offer you as evidence for the rather confusing points of view I’m getting here about this issue–Mary being sinless, or Mary not being sinless?

 

[PRmerger]

OK, that’s a problem…because right here in this forum several Catholics have come right out and said that Mary was sinless (never tempted.) Now I’m quite sure that you believe precisely as you claim you do. Can you give me an official declaration from the church regarding this issue? Is it in the catechism anywhere?

…'cause I"m not going to argue with any Catholic who tells me what they believe about this thing or that thing–because no matter what it is, they’re right!

How 'bout this, from an Apologist on the CAFs, Michelle Arnold:

Originally posted by an official, professional Catholic Apologist : Mary was not just born without original sin, she was conceived without original sin. Since concupiscence is a consequence of original sin, it follows that Mary did not have concupiscence. While it is true that a lack of concupiscence does make it easier to entirely avoid sin, it does not mean that Mary was not tempted. She very well could have been tempted to sin. We know this because Scripture explicitly states that Jesus, who also was without original sin and its consequent concupiscence, was tempted and overcame temptation
(Heb. 4:15). If even Jesus, who is God himself, suffered temptation, it is possible that Mary did also

.

 

[dianaiad]

“Sinless” and “never tempted” are not synonyms.

Jesus was sinless. He was tempted.

Adam and Eve were sinless. They were tempted and they fell.

OK, you are quite right…I should have been more clear. I have been told that Mary was sinless–by some, and by some I have been told that she was never tempted to sin.

 

[dianaiad]

Huh? Apart from my granny I was probably the most Catholic member of my family…

I think that Pismopal is pulling a True Scott on you, Janet. You know…you were never a ‘true’ Catholic, if you could actually leave?

 

[PRmerger]

OK, you are quite right…I should have been more clear. I have been told that Mary was sinless–by some, and by some I have been told that she was never tempted to sin.

As a creature she had free will, and anyone with a free will will be tempted.

 

[PRmerger]

I think that Pismopal is pulling a True Scott on you, Janet. You know…you were never a ‘true’ Catholic, if you could actually leave?

I don’t know if we ought to be judging whether anyone is a “true _______” on a public forum. (I reserve the right to amend this statement–if I really believe that someone is an imposter! )

At any rate, it’s clear that Janet was not well catechized and left a faith she did not understand.

 

[dianaiad]

Exactly, and the Stance is Adam, Eve, Mary and Jesus all born without sin.

Its in the Catholic catechism you could read it.

Diana the fact that Christ is sinless directly relates to Mary being sinless. If Mary is born with Sin? Then so will Christ be. Its impossible to be any other way? Or could you explain that?

I’m sorry, but that logic simply doesn’t follow. If Mary had to be born without sin (and let’s get this one straight…I believe that she was born without sin) in order for Christ to be sinless, then doesn’t that make Mary herself better than Jesus?

Unless of course Mary’s mother was also born without sin, and her mother before her, and hers before her…back to the first mother Eve…

Problem there, yes? It’s a circular logical path that doesn’t stop anywhere.

Thats the point of the post on Christ above.

Diana you agee with the entire post on Christ above?

Actually, you lost me rather early on. If you mean…do I agree that Jesus was without sin, yes, I do believe that. If you mean…do I agree that His sinlessness depended upon His mother’s sinlessness, no, I don’t agree with that.

If you believe what I said there. Which I’m assuming you do by the way you responded about both Church beliefs. Then how could you not grasp Mary without sin?

I’m missing the block which won’t allow you to grasp this.

Perhaps we need to go back to basics.
So you believe that she was born innocent, without the ‘taint’ of original sin?
…well, so do I.
Do you believe that she lived her entire life without commiting a sin?
…I don’t think she managed that. She must have come pretty close, but utterly without sin? Nah. She had to grow up just like the rest of us, and unlike her Son, SHE was not the Only Begotten Son of God. Unlike her Son, Who was fully human and fully God, she was simply…fully human.

Do you believe that Jesus couldn’t have lived his entire life without sinning if His mother had not been born without sin and lived without sin?
…that makes no sense to me, because it makes Him weaker than His mother, by a long shot. After all, there is no hint that her mother was born without sin or lived a sinless life, and if HIS sinless nature depended upon hers (and He IS God, for heaven’s sake…) then how much more would it have been necessary for HER to have had such an immaculate, sinless mother? …and if she didn’t require one in order to be sinless herself, then why in the world would JESUS require it in order for HIM to be sinless?

The logic doesn’t work. It MIGHT be possible that Mary was born innocent (well, I believe she was, of course) and that she lived a sinless life (it’s possible, certainly…I just don’t think it was probable). However, if she was, it’s because she was, not because Jesus required it in order to be sinless Himself.

 

[dianaiad]

Well, and the billions of souls that have been created, right? Until they commit their first sin, according to Mormon teaching?

Yep. That’s why we don’t baptise infants. They don’t need it.

Of course, we don’t think anybody has ever made it much past the age of 8 (the age of accountability) without sinning…unless of course the person has no understanding of the difference between right and wrong.

Except, of course, for Jesus Himself.

 

[PRmerger]

Yep. That’s why we don’t baptise infants. They don’t need it.

Of course, we don’t think anybody has ever made it much past the age of 8 (the age of accountability) without sinning…unless of course the person has no understanding of the difference between right and wrong.

Except, of course, for Jesus Himself.

Curious, indeed!

So St. Paul’s “all have sinned” really means, “*except *Jesus, and except the billions of souls who were created in their infancy?”

And do you believe that those with Down syndrome are excluded in Paul’s inspired words?

 

[dianaiad]

How 'bout this, from an Apologist on the CAFs, Michelle Arnold:

.

OK…I understand, sort of…

Though I do have to shake my head at the idea that original sin is all about sex (a lack of concupiscence makes abstaining from sin easier? I can see where it would make abstaining from sexual sin easier, but what about all the other sorts?) .

I am also having some problems wrapping my mind around the idea that Mary was concieved without concupiscence being involved, and I’m trying very hard to find a way to express the problem with this and still stay…hmmn…

Let’s put it this way. I can absolutely see how this could be done with Mary’s mother.She could simply close her eyes and 'think of Israel." I have no clue how it could be done with Mary’s father. Doesn’t he count?

 

[GaryTaylor]

I actually do agree with you except for one thing: I do not believe that Mary was sinless. She was probably a woman after God’s own heart, but sinless? I doubt that.

If Christ’s sinlessness is directly related to Mary’s sinlessness, then why weren’t her parents sinless? That is the same logic.
Yes, God can create a woman sinless, but why then would it be impossible for Him to come down to earth and be sinless if His mother was not sinless?

It doesn’t make sense to me.

Because of the Reality that God the Holy Spirit is pure and sinless. He couldn’t be born into mans Sins. Thats God chosing to be born as the Son of Man. His goal was to send a Savior to die for mans Sin. The Redemtion of man. He couldn’t have accomplished this with Sin. What would have been the purpose?

Marys conceived without sin. Through the grace of God. In the Bible Mary is Full of Grace. Nobody else in the good book is Full of Grace. So when we say Full of Grace. Theres nothing else there but Gods Grace. No room for nothing else. Not 99.999 Grace and ,0001% Sin. Full of Grace.

I can’t even comprehend what Full of Grace consists of. I know no-one Full of Grace. Mary is without a doubt on her own level. She’s on a plane which is hers alone. The Angels great her Hail Mary. They are not on her plane. Above Mary is only the Trinity.

We know Mary has a tremendous relationship with God. Who has that in the New Testament? We are still comprehending the reality of Mary. The Holy Spirit without a doubt sent her to be known the last two hundred years.

 

[dianaiad]

I don’t know if we ought to be judging whether anyone is a “true _______” on a public forum. (I reserve the right to amend this statement–if I really believe that someone is an imposter! )

At any rate, it’s clear that Janet was not well catechized and left a faith she did not understand.

That may be true. IT’s also irrelevant. If she was baptised, then she was a Catholic, right?
“One of us?” (well, one of you…) Whether she was a GOOD one, or a knowlegable one–that’s entirely different.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I’m sorry, but that logic simply doesn’t follow. If Mary had to be born without sin (and let’s get this one straight…I believe that she was born without sin) in order for Christ to be sinless, then doesn’t that make Mary herself better than Jesus?

No. Mary has no divine nature. She was saved by Her Son just like everyone else, but the difference is when His redemptive sacrifice was applied to Her.

 

[freerf]

The other day I was chatting with another mom from my son’s preschool. The topic of church came up, as she was telling me that her church (an independent church) was sponsoring the Community Day that weekend. When I mentioned that I’m Catholic, she kind of sneered. She said that she"had a lot of friends that were Catholic growing up and went along to (CCD?) with them. They were doing the “Mary Thing”. When I asked her what she meant, she said “the sacrements”. I couldn’t help but notice the vemom with which she said “Mary”. I’ve only been Catholic for a few months, but this isn’t the first time I have experienced a hostility toward Mary from some non-Catholics. I was raised Methodist and we basically thought about Mary at Christmas. But never anything negative.

I’d like to hear from Catholics and non-Catholics. Is this something that is common? I don’t understand having contempt for Jesus’s mother, even if your particular faith tradition does not venerate her as Catholics do.

On a related note, why does the word “Roman” in Roman Catholic sometimes sound like a slur when used by non-Catholic Christians? I’m not trying to lump all non-Catholics together, I’m just trying to understand the negativity in some and how I can educate (if they are open) to what Catholics really believe as opposed to what they have been told we believe. I’m sorry this is so long. I really need some insight here.

Thank you,
Sharen

I’m from a non-denominational church and my experience is that yes there is a lot of contempt for Mary and “Roman” Catholics.

Much of it is merely misplaced animosity at the “Roman” Catholic Church. Many of them don’t like the Catholic Church, and barely recognize it as a Christian church at all. And I must say that the CC blurs the line between worship and reverence in a way that non-catholics are very uncomfortable with. That is why the contempt - they think she (Mary) has been wrongly placed as a God-like figure by the CC. And, in many ways they are right (Queen of Heaven, Immaculate Conception, Free of Sin, CoRedemptrix, etc.) though some of it is merely a misunderstanding. She certainly is portrayed as more-than-human, eh? I’m very Catholic-friendly and i have a hard time seeing the difference. But, i’m comfortable with the fact that i-just-don’t-know-everything.

Bottom line is that in much of this non-denom. world, anger towards Roman Catholicism is a safe place and quite popular. These people pat themselves on the back for being able to see through the idolatry, and the “works-based” religion. They enjoy spending time trivializing catholic relatives and peers, and the great works of Catholic saints, never really trying to understand it at all. Not all of us, obviously, but there are quite a few. Say 15%.

I say, if they’re sneering at you for your love of the Catholic Church, have comfort in the fact that it is obviously not Christ reflected in their face. Prove how wonderful the Catholic Church is by your behavior and love, not by your logic. What is that wonderful Catholic saying? “Preach the gospel everywhere you go, and if necessary, use words.”

We non-denominationals have trouble shutting our yap long enough to do any works, so you won’t hear that one from us. j/k

 

[Cat_Herder]

I say, if they’re sneering at you for your love of the Catholic Church, have comfort in the fact that it is obviously not Christ reflected in their face. Prove how wonderful the Catholic Church is by your behavior and love, not by your logic. What is that wonderful Catholic saying? “Preach the gospel everywhere you go, and if necessary, use words.”

Sound advice from you and from St. Francis of Assisi, who originated the quote.

 

[freerf]

It goes without saying that Protestants and Catholics have a very different view of Mary. Protestants view Mary as a devout woman chosen by God to bear His Son, but still a sinner just like all the rest of us. Since the Immaculate Conception is not expressly found in scripture, they reject it. Moreover, in the view of many Protestants, the Immaculate Conception would not have been necessary because Jesus did not have Mary’s DNA. She was merely an incubator for flesh that was exclusively of the Holy Spirit, not a biological mother. There is even one school of thought that maintains Mary could not be the biological mother of Jesus because if she had been, Jesus would have inherited original sin. Imagine that!

Protestants reject the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, even though it was affirmed by no less than Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Wesley. They truly believe that Mary was the mother of at least six other children, maybe more.
Protestants regard the title Mother of God as blasphemous because they can’t (won’t) wrap their minds around this concept that actually transcends time.
Finally, Protestants reject the idea of the Assumption as being outside the Bible. They also reject the idea of praying to Mary or any of the other saints.

So, they believe Mary was a good woman given to a unique role, but one who lived and died and will be resurrected along with the rest of us at the end of the age.
Now, compare this with the Catholic view of Mary who sits at the right hand of Christ as Queen of Heaven, and who makes constant intercessions for us, and you see the two groups are talking about two different people. Protestants love and respect what they regard as the Mary of the Bible, but they do have considerable hostility toward the Catholic Mary who they believe is either a goddess of something so close to being a goddess that honoring her would be sinful. Sort of like honoring the pagan Minerva or Diana. Those Protestants who hate Mary regard the Catholic Mary as equally pagan.

Of course many Protestants just ignore Mary and never think about her except at Christmas.

very good response. i second that.