Why the hostility toward Mary?

[GaryTaylor]

Lets also clear up this misconception on what “Catholics” do in reverence to Mary.

If you go back in this thread and actually read it. You’ll see that Mary is converting thousands of Souls to God. And has been very active the past couple hundred years.And active since the Apostles. Your Church the Orthodox Church used a form of the Rosary way way back. Nothing new there.

You can’t pray the Rosary and miss God. That won’t happen. And I"m here to let you know this isn’t something I read about. I watch it every Monday Night. How that works exactly? I could only assume.

But souls are saved through her intervention and wind up in Sunday Mass on the regular from there.

We all as Christians Pray to GOD. No-Ones worshiping Mary as God.

But we do pay a great deal of respect to her. Shes converting Souls to God in a very real mystical way. Go back and watch the Video on Zeitoun I posted. Thats not a fairy tale.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Now, do you understand where I’m coming from when I say Mary has to be Sinless in order for God to remain sinless?

My thinking always, always reflects Catholic School teaching. which relects Bible. I can’t tell you anything else but that, because I don’t know it. And I’m not looking.

Mary is a Blessing which not all receive, why? Many human reasons.

Can you find God without Mary? Of course you can. But we need to remember here that God chose to come to us through Mary. Doesn’t it make sense that he would wish us to come to him through her?

If you chose to win at something. Would you not give yourself every advantage to win? Marys that extra advantage/

Does that sound like Marys God? Those are words which others chose to label Catholics with.

 

[freerf]

Now, do you understand where I’m coming from when I say Mary has to be Sinless in order for God to remain sinless?

My thinking always, always reflects Catholic School teaching. which relects Bible. I can’t tell you anything else but that, because I don’t know it. And I’m not looking.

.

No. Sorry, i don’t get it.
Great quote above though.

 

[freerf]

Apparently, on this forumn the question should be,
“why the hostility toward people who don’t share Catholic’s reverence for Mary”

Lighten up, Gary! Say a rosary or something. lol.

 

[freerf]

Of God so respected Mary. How should you respect her?

This little ditty is worth commenting on because i hear this arguement so frequently. Shouldn’t the question be, “Mary respected God so how should you also respect Him?” My version takes your esteem for Mary and points to God. Your version takes the esteem for God and points to Mary. That seems a bit backwards to me.

Yes, yes, i know you won’t agree. i’m just sharing because i am a “potential convert”. it’s not intended to be hostile.

 

[MartinJordan]

Luke 1:42

41 Now it happened that as soon as Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leapt in her womb and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

42 She gave a loud cry and said, 'Of all women you are the most blessed, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.

43 Why should I be honoured with a visit from the mother of my Lord?

44 Look, the moment your greeting reached my ears, the child in my womb leapt for joy.

45 Yes, blessed is she who believed that the promise made her by the Lord would be fulfilled.’

If Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit when she said those words, who is one to question the preciousness and honor that we should give to Mary?

MJ

 

[Reuben_J]

Well, in my religion, i don’t presume to know how God is born into someone either way.

Then perhaps it does not tell you enough, have we ever wonder?

 

[PRmerger]

Then I"m here waiting for your explaination of how God was Born into SIn without Sin?

Then you’re stuck trying to explain how Mary was born into sin without sin–unless you’re proposing that St. Ann was also sinless?

 

[PRmerger]

very good! but it doesn’t seem to be a “proposal.” i thought it was an infallable teaching or something? as a Catholic, you are supposed to believe this on faith, right? not something i’d do with a proposal.

The infallible teaching is the Immaculate Conception.

Now, the apologia for it are proposals.

 

[PRmerger]

This little ditty is worth commenting on because i hear this arguement so frequently. Shouldn’t the question be, “Mary respected God so how should you also respect Him?” My version takes your esteem for Mary and points to God. Your version takes the esteem for God and points to Mary. That seems a bit backwards to me.

Yes, yes, i know you won’t agree. i’m just sharing because i am a “potential convert”. it’s not intended to be hostile.

Freerf: how do you understand the Commandment to Honor Your Mother and Father?

Shouldn’t the command be Honor God Alone?

Or, is it like most Catholic things, we are capable of both/and…not either/or?

 

[GaryTaylor]

This little ditty is worth commenting on because i hear this arguement so frequently. Shouldn’t the question be, “Mary respected God so how should you also respect Him?” My version takes your esteem for Mary and points to God. Your version takes the esteem for God and points to Mary. That seems a bit backwards to me.

Yes, yes, i know you won’t agree. i’m just sharing because i am a “potential convert”. it’s not intended to be hostile.

This is good point, and its a yes and no answer. Mary always points to God when attention is placed on her. If you look at the very Madonna painted by Luke, it shows exactly this.

But we also must realize God thought out this “entire” truth of Jesus Christ long before Mary thought of God. Before her Birth. Gods plan of Jesus Christ is made possible by Mary who came first. We have a variable in the equation though Free Will.

By the time God sends an Angel. Now he clearly wants Mary to understand whats going on. And we see His respect at this point.

But when move into this day, today? Yes God is the author of LIfe. We live in the world he created.

The answer to another question above about Marys parents sinless? We have to realize, while they are also revered family. God is the one performing the miracles of Life. He lives outside this reality “earth” and the laws of physics and mathmatics.which bind us to it.

God Bless, Gary

 

[GaryTaylor]

Then you’re stuck trying to explain how Mary was born into sin without sin–unless you’re proposing that St. Ann was also sinless?

Above Post my Brother.

God Bless, Gary

All our information concerning the names and lives of Sts. Joachim and Anne, the parents of Mary, is derived from apocryphal literature All great reading

 

[PRmerger]

Above Post my Brother.

God Bless, Gary

All our information concerning the names and lives of Sts. Joachim and Anne, the parents of Mary, is derived from apocryphal literature All great reading

I didn’t see it. Could you kindly re-iterate?

Also, you’ll have to explain how a sinless Christ can enter our sinful bodies at the Eucharist, if you propose that God MUST enter only into sinless creatures to remain sinless.

With my proposal (and I’m in good company with apologists Jimmy Akin and Patrick Madrid who’ve stated what I have: it was not required that Mary be sinless, but it was fitting), I don’t have any 'splaining to do as to how we can partake of the Eucharist without being Immaculately Conceived.

Now, to be sure, when we receive Him, it is FITTING that we be without sin, but it is not REQUIRED.

 

[GaryTaylor]

No. Sorry, i don’t get it.
Great quote above though.

We all strive to get it. What complicates this is we lost generations of Souls who were not afforded the opportunity to grow in Faith and Christian teaching from Birth. And as the Bible states “We Reap what we Sow”

I assure you the Nuns/Sisters went right to edge of sanity explaining this to generations of children. Who’s favorite response is “why”? To all questions

 

[GaryTaylor]

I didn’t see it. Could you kindly re-iterate?

Also, you’ll have to explain how a sinless Christ can enter our sinful bodies at the Eucharist, if you propose that God MUST enter only into sinless creatures to remain sinless.

With my proposal (and I’m in good company with apologists Jimmy Akin and Patrick Madrid who’ve stated what I have: it was not required that Mary be sinless, but it was fitting), I don’t have any 'splaining to do as to how we can partake of the Eucharist without being Immaculately Conceived.

Now, to be sure, when we receive Him, it is FITTING that we be without sin, but it is not REQUIRED.

The Eucharist is another topic for another moment. We are speaking about Mary here. But since we have two threads going on with the exact same point of discusion. Then this need clarification here at this point also.

Does the Immaculate Conception mean that Mary’s parents didn’t have sex?
Some people think the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception means that Catholics are saying Mary’s mother was a virgin when she conceived Mary. That’s is a misconception of Catholic teaching. Mary’s parents, St. Joachim and St. Anne, conceived her in the usual way. There was nothing special about that. The Immaculate Conception simply means that through the merits of Jesus, Mary was preserved from original sin. I’ll try to unpack that a bit in this article.

One of the things I think we need to consider when thinking about the immaculate conception is: “Could God do it if he wanted to?” I think anyone would say “God can do anything.” So I think the question remains “why would God conceive Mary without sin?” Perhaps we could say the same thing about why God would want the Ark of the Old Covenant to be pure.

Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant
I was in Israel last year and I stayed with an Orthodox Jewish family. You should hear the way they talk about the Ark of the Covenant. They sound just like Catholics talking about Mary. To understand how Catholics treat Mary, look at the way the Israelites honour the Ark of the Old Covenant. The Israelites did not worship the Ark but they treated it with incredible reverence.

They are still looking all over Israel for the Ark, but the Ark of the Old Covenant will never be found again, because the Ark of the New Covenant has been found. The Ark of the Old Covenant was built immaculately. It was perfect, as much as it could be under the Old Covenant. If God would be this specific about the purity of the vessel that would carry the Word of God made “stone” (Ex 25:10) we think He would require purity of the Ark of the New Covenant, that would carry the Word of God made “flesh” (Rev 11:19)

Why do we believe Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant in Rev 11:18-12:17?
The Ark of the Old Covenant carried the Word of God made stone while the Ark of the New Covenant carried the Word of God mad flesh when Mary was pregnant with Jesus.
The old Ark of the Covenant disappears in Jer 3:16. The new Ark of the Covenant resurfaces in Revelation 11:19 as the woman with 12 stars around her head.
The Ark of the Covenant has been restored to the temple, which is now heaven (See also Heb 9:1-12)
A woman with a crown is there - the new Ark
The woman in Revelation bore the King of the Israelites (Jesus) - who will rule the nations and is at God’s throne
The devil is very interested in destroying her but she is safe
Her children are all faithful Christians who “follow the lamb” (Rev 12:17)
The Israelites knew God used the Ark powerfully and they brought it into battle (Jos. 6:3-4). The Ark of the New Covenant, Mary, is introduced into the heavenly battle against Satan (Rev 11:19)
If Jesus is the Word made flesh, then we could consider Mary as the Ark made flesh.
Both the old Ark and the new Ark gain their merits because of the “Word of God” made stone in the Old Covenant and made flesh in the New Covenant.

As I also mention this point of contention was give in even with Martin Luther. The Immaculate Conception.

As far as who your speaking of of here? Please post the links of “their” teaching to veryify your words. I’d love to read this.

 

[GaryTaylor]

BTW you being in a state of SIn and receiving the Eucharist is OK with you? This is a statement I would seriously research. So your now claiming you can be in a state of sin and receive Communion?

Research this my friend or maybe its me misunderstanding what your saying?

 

[GaryTaylor]

And heres more on Catholic teaching…

The Immaculate Conception

It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived “by the power of the Holy Spirit,” in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what “immaculate” means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

Undertanding the Immaculate Conception requires a bit of reading. But more than that, it requires a firm belief in what God is capable of. When we view today world and human existence, then compare that to the Holy family, then say “how could this be?” It becomes even more difficult to understand. These are Graced individuals, St Anne, the Blessed Mother, John, and our Savior Jesus Christ. We as humans have only scratched the surface of undertstanding Christ, never mind God the Father during this period of time.

My point of contention is this. I keep my mind open to all thinking. I’m skeptical by nature. But I’ve yet to hear a better understanding of the Bible and belief system than the Catholic Church. Its not by chance Thousands of years of scholars gravitated to the teachings of the Apostles.

But I want to read the links on the Catholic Church elect who believe other than what I’ve posted. I would love to see their words in writting who don’t follow the Teachings of the Immaculate Conception, Assumption, Coronation, Holy Communion of the Catholic Church.

 

[pismopal]

I don’t know if we ought to be judging whether anyone is a “true _______” on a public forum. (I reserve the right to amend this statement–if I really believe that someone is an imposter! )

At any rate, it’s clear that Janet was not well catechized and left a faith she did not understand.

Very correct…but there are other reasons that cause people to reject truth.

 

[Janet1983]

Now where in the Bible does Mary have sin? Wheres that verse, or is that assumtion? I been waiting a year here for someone to arrive with that scripture You have it? You might be the one?

That is definitely an interesting logic.

However Mary doesn’t appear very often in Scripture and as a matter of fact we can’t find anything about her after the first chapter of Acts.
There were others who weren’t mentioned very often (apart from just being somewhere) just like her and we don’t claim them to be sinless.
Yes, I am not aware of any situation in which Mary sinned. I am also not aware of any passage that directly describes that she did not sin or any passage that directly describes her assumption.
From the few passages we have about her I cannot filter out any of that, unless I of course assume it.

Mary was described to have been there at almost every major event in Jesus’ life, but these are still just a few references.

Just because there is only little reference doesn’t mean that she didn’t do the obvious (being like any other human being and sinning, that is).

We all assume that Stephen was a sinner, even though we only have little information about him. Stephen is described as being “full of grace” (Acts 6:8) in almost all major Bible translations and still we do not assume that he was actually sinless or immaculately conceived.

The term that Mary was called was “kecharitōmenē” it doesn’t even mean “full of grace”. It is the Perfect Passive Participle Nominative Singular (Feminine) of charitoó which means favor highly. The root of the word is charis (grace, kindness).

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 1:28[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 6:8[/BIBLEDRB]

I also compared the Latin (which was a little easier for me):
“Et ingressus Angelus ad eam dixit: Ave gratia plena: Dominus tecum: Benedicta tu in mulieribus.”
“Stephanus autem plenus gratia, et fortitudine faciebat prodigia, et signa magna in populo.”

I think it is obvious which is which… As the word order doesn’t make a significant difference when it comes to Latin you could have it like this too:
Mary: gratia plena
Stephen: gratia plenus
The difference in these adjectives comes only from the fact that Stephen is not female and that is why it’s not “plena”, but “plenus”. Both words mean the following: full, abundant, generous.
It’s plenus, -a, -um… It took me a little to refresh some of my memory… I’ve been out of this for 8 years now and I haven’t done anything to retain much of the memory…

Well the point is that I don’t assume that Stephen was sinless (and I guess you would agree on this one), so why should I assume Mary was?

 

[dianaiad]

This is fodder for another thread–is celibacy really about abstaining from sex? And, of course, it isn’t.

As for original sin being “all about sex”…noooo. Concupiscence is our desire to like things that aren’t good for us. Think of it like we were made initially to like nuts and berries, but concupiscence makes us like devil’s food cake.

What? The CC has no teaching on whether Sts. Joachim and Ann conceived Mary with sinful thoughts (one would think not!) or glorious thoughts (one would hope!). But, we don’t know.

OK, here is a brick in the path to stumble over, indeed. Y’see, there is nothing sinful about sex between a man and a wife. In fact, it’s a commandment–and has been since day one. In fact, because of this, ALL children conceived in wedlock as the result of a man and wife willingly engaged in this act are 'concieved without sin–" because the parents didn’t commit one by engaging in the process by which that conception took place.