Why the hostility toward Mary?

[dianaiad]

It’s quite relevant, actually, diana.

Yes she was.

Then she was, “one of us.”

Now, I wouldn’t go to her for information regarding the Catholic church (she is now an ex-Catholic, and by now most people know what I think about using ex-anythings as sources ov information about the religion they LEFT) but i’m not going to tell her she never was a Catholic.

True, I remember challenging the claims of one or two people who said they were Mormons at one time, but only because they made claims so outrageously false that it was impossible that they had even had the missionary lessons, much less been baptised or attended Sacrament Meeting.

You know…things that nobody who has ever been LDS would ever say…sort of like that old joke about the soldier who got lost behind enemy lines and thus didn’t get the password for the day? When the sentry told him to prove that he was an American by singing the second verse of the national anthem, this poor soldier, resigned, said 'shoot me…I don’t know it!" The sentry said 'pass, American!"

Ok, now that IS a derailment.
Never mind. Sorry about that.

 

[dianaiad]

Fair enough.

So, in your example that “all have sinned” (and that must necessarily include Mary 'cause it says “all”, right?) you note that there’s billions of exceptions to this “all”. Little ones up through the age of reason, some with Down syndrome.

I might add there’s millions more–those with Williams syndrome, those with agenesis of the corpus collosum, those with autism, etc etc etc…who you would reasonably except from this verse that “all” have sinned?

Yet this verse is cited to state that “all” had to have included Mary?

Curiouser and curiouser indeed!

Ok, (grin) you made your point.

However, we contend that it means “all who are capable of sinning have sinned.” Which is a little more consistant than exempting one person…who isn’t referred to in that verse.

 

[dianaiad]

Yes, I think that to say that Mary had to have been born sinless in order for Jesus to have been sinless is a poor argument.

Rather, we propose that it was fitting for Mary to have been born sinless, but not required.

Heck, Jesus could have come to earth as a fully grown man and still been sinless, eh?

Actually, I believe that in a few orthodox (little ‘o’, though I’ve heard Catholics say this, too) faiths, Melchezedek was said to have been the pre-incarnate Jesus…who would have had to have appeared fully grown (he wasn’t born until Mary, right?) and obviously, since He was Jesus, sinless.

So yeah…He could have.

(the Melchezedeck/Jesus idea is NOT one that Mormons share)

 

[Janet1983]

Then she was, “one of us.”

Now, I wouldn’t go to her for information regarding the Catholic church (she is now an ex-Catholic, and by now most people know what I think about using ex-anythings as sources ov information about the religion they LEFT) but i’m not going to tell her she never was a Catholic.

I feel honored by your gracious defense of my person on this matter. Thank you very much.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Dianaid,

My understanding of you is that your Mormon tradition of wedlock – and I wish we had more devotion to defining and upholding it as your faith tradition does…shades the understanding we have from our tradition of faith that Mary was perpetual virgin.

There is the clause that Christ said there were those made for the kingdom…St. Peter and other apostles had wives, but once they began the ministry of sharing the Good News, their wives became as sisters.

I was taught by nuns in grade school, worked among them and other religious celibates…and they have a mystical spirituality and are emotionally independent…especially the priests.

The Latin church will always require celibacy. When married priests were allowed, they had divorce and other scandals. A priest in the local paper spoke about celibacy…He said it was a hard decision, but once made, he went on with his life and found it to be very socially rich. He always is invited to dinner. Many priests say by the time the day is done, they want to be alone with the Lord.

I remember visiting with a fellow who was staying at the rectory…we visited into the evening…Later our pastor came in…the chapel door was open in the house…we saw him go down, and before the Blessed Sacrament, get on his knees and bend down before the presence of Our Lord…very touching.

The celibate gives all to the Lord…and the Lord greatly rewards him with a hundred fold of family and friends…

And Mary herself had the great single purpose of mind. This is our faith tradition that has been passed down to us for 2,000 years. If you lived here in town, I would take you to Mass and to be with some nuns or brothers…we have several monasteries here and they will give you treats and candy and tell jokes.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Very correct…but there are other reasons that cause people to reject truth.

And the basis of this statement is “other people” reject Truth?

What other people? Who? Where? Do you have there belief in ink? Whats there reasons you claim they have?

Look I’m not trying to be anything but for real with you. There’s a constant cry to what “they” believe as Catholics. Well we as Catholics who make up the Catholic Church have many different beliefs. We are all different people with different learned behaviors.

But there can only be one Truth. So whos should we go with? A combination of mine, yours and churchs? Thats doesn’t sound right. Cardinal so and so from CA? Thats doesn’t sound right. How about what the Church has stated for thousands of years. And when you begin to view the education the Faithful have, like the Popes, Erasmus, the Saints, the Elect of the Orthodox Church, Martin Luther. Thats a great amount of knowledge we chose to throw out the window, due to a passing throught we might have. Especially when that passing through may well be satan whispering in your ear.

But I’m not here to 100% convince you that you are wrong. I’m here to tell you what I believe and was taught by catholic school. And at the end of the day theres a hope you will actually research through intensive reading what you actually do believe. And where that notion of belief actually came from.

While members of the Church can be wrong. the doctrine of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ can’t be. This is Jesus Christ as told to the Apostles thus “us”.

If its not written in the Bible? The Silence we are left with is also on purpose. As John writes in the Bible.

Untill the day God himself arrives to tell us the Truth. The Respect for Mary must mimic the Respect God had for her. And we will always fall short of this. Yet we must think in these terms. I conclude that Spirit of Reverence is the right thinking.

And the point again becomes “Why the Hostility for Mary” Whats the Truth behind this thinking? We have certainly put forth the Truth about Marys position, and placed her Reverence in prospective also.

 

[dianaiad]

Mary is Conceived without sin.

Marys a Great Catholic? Well let me ask you this Who in you church is greated by Angels and Full of Grace?

You can be Full of anything, but I assure you you arn’t Full of Grace. Do you know anybody full of grace?

Mary converts your right there that is the goal.

Of God so respected Mary. How should you respect her?

Is not everyone, fresh out of the confessional, 'in a state of grace?" isn’t that the whole idea?

As to "full of grace,’ what does that MEAN, exactly? I know that you have an idea for yourself of what that means, that it MUST mean that she was sinless (and possibly/probably so at least at that moment), that she MUST have been born without the ‘taint of original sin,’ that she MUST be this thing, or that thing…

But where is there the proof of any of those things that you think must go along with being 'full of grace?"

Here is what we know about her: she was visited by an angel when she was about 13 or 14 years old. She was the best girl/woman on the planet of that (or possibly any…) time. She was chosen to give birth to the Only Begotten Son of God. She raised Him well. He went on to fully fulfill His calling and purpose, and one can assume that her influence upon Him was helpful to that calling and purpose.

But there is no logical reason to assume that because Jesus is/was Who He is/was, that Mary HAD to be all those things you claim for her. For one thing, it limits God. A lot. Frankly, Jesus, being God and the Son of God, would have been Who He is/was if he had been born to a prostitute as the result of rape, and raised in a cribhouse. His nature is divine. I have a feeling that God gave Him to Mary for her great blessing…and because God wanted Jesus to have some joy in His childhood/life, not because there was some physical requirement that only Mary could have provided.

In other words, I honor Mary greatly; not because God made her some impossible divine goddess/substitute creature without temptation or will of her own, but because she was HUMAN, just like the rest of us, and through her faith became worthy to be the mother of Jesus.

That He was given to Mary to raise was her great blessing and honor; that she was who she was is the result of her great faith and character.

 

[Publisher]

Hi Dianaid,

There is the clause that Christ said there were those made for the kingdom....St. Peter and other apostles had wives, but once they began the ministry of sharing the Good News, their wives became as sisters.

I have read this several times on this board…where in scripture exactly is the “clause” that says the apostles wives became as their sisters?

 

[dianaiad]

Now where in the Bible does Mary have sin? Wheres that verse, or is that assumtion? I been waiting a year here for someone to arrive with that scripture You have it? You might be the one?

Excuse me, Gary, but where in the bible does it say that you sin? Where in the bible does it say that any of the many millions of people on the planet have sinned? Does the bible have to actually come out and say that each and every person ever born has sinned, and name them by name?

The thing is, the unusual thing would be that someone did NOT sin…and that would have been worthy of mention…rather like the modern newspapers now would not report ‘dog bites man…’ because that is the expected natural thing. The headline WOULD read 'man bites dog."

So, my friend, that there is no mention of Mary sinning in the bible is not proof that she did not sin. Only a statement in there that said 'Mary lived a sinless life" would be proof of that one.

Lack of proof that she sinned is not proof of her sinless state. It’s not even an indicator. Or a hint, one way or the other.

 

[dianaiad]

How do you explain God born into someone with Sin and not have Sin? God can’t have SIn, Mary can’t have sin.

Explain to me how else this could possibly work IN YOUR RELIGION

Dunno about his, but in mine…

We beleive that all humans are born entirely innocent and without sin. Absolutely innocent. The trick is to stay that way.

So for us the whole question is–irrelevent.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Go back and read the entire thread Diana its all posted.

Have a great day all. Go with God, the rest we’ll work out.

 

[pismopal]

And the basis of this statement is “other people” reject Truth?

What other people? Who? Where? Do you have there belief in ink? Whats there reasons you claim they have?

Look I’m not trying to be anything but for real with you. There’s a constant cry to what “they” believe as Catholics. Well we as Catholics who make up the Catholic Church have many different beliefs. We are all different people with different learned behaviors.

But there can only be one Truth. So whos should we go with? A combination of mine, yours and churchs? Thats doesn’t sound right. Cardinal so and so from CA? Thats doesn’t sound right. How about what the Church has stated for thousands of years. And when you begin to view the education the Faithful have, like the Popes, Erasmus, the Saints, the Elect of the Orthodox Church, Martin Luther. Thats a great amount of knowledge we chose to throw out the window, due to a passing throught we might have. Especially when that passing through may well be satan whispering in your ear.

But I’m not here to 100% convince you that you are wrong. I’m here to tell you what I believe and was taught by catholic school. And at the end of the day theres a hope you will actually research through intensive reading what you actually do believe. And where that notion of belief actually came from.

While members of the Church can be wrong. the doctrine of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ can’t be. This is Jesus Christ as told to the Apostles thus “us”.

If its not written in the Bible? The Silence we are left with is also on purpose. As John writes in the Bible.

Untill the day God himself arrives to tell us the Truth. The Respect for Mary must mimic the Respect God had for her. And we will always fall short of this. Yet we must think in these terms. I conclude that Spirit of Reverence is the right thinking.

And the point again becomes “Why the Hostility for Mary” Whats the Truth behind this thinking? We have certainly put forth the Truth about Marys position, and placed her Reverence in prospective also.

Gary
I don’t want to embarrass you but your post doesn’t match the original subject and my response to them. I think if you read what I was responding to and put my terse remarks together in context you might agree that you are “preaching to the choir.” Have a nice day

 

[rinnie]

Dunno about his, but in mine…

We beleive that all humans are born entirely innocent and without sin. Absolutely innocent. The trick is to stay that way.

So for us the whole question is–irrelevent.

Where does that teaching come from? And another question, Why then are we not in the garden of Eden anymore?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Is not everyone, fresh out of the confessional, 'in a state of grace?" isn’t that the whole idea?

As to "full of grace,’ what does that MEAN, exactly? I know that you have an idea for yourself of what that means, that it MUST mean that she was sinless (and possibly/probably so at least at that moment), that she MUST have been born without the ‘taint of original sin,’ that she MUST be this thing, or that thing…

But where is there the proof of any of those things that you think must go along with being 'full of grace?"

Here is what we know about her: she was visited by an angel when she was about 13 or 14 years old. She was the best girl/woman on the planet of that (or possibly any…) time. She was chosen to give birth to the Only Begotten Son of God. She raised Him well. He went on to fully fulfill His calling and purpose, and one can assume that her influence upon Him was helpful to that calling and purpose.

But there is no logical reason to assume that because Jesus is/was Who He is/was, that Mary HAD to be all those things you claim for her. For one thing, it limits God. A lot. Frankly, Jesus, being God and the Son of God, would have been Who He is/was if he had been born to a prostitute as the result of rape, and raised in a cribhouse. His nature is divine. I have a feeling that God gave Him to Mary for her great blessing…and because God wanted Jesus to have some joy in His childhood/life, not because there was some physical requirement that only Mary could have provided.

In other words, I honor Mary greatly; not because God made her some impossible divine goddess/substitute creature without temptation or will of her own, but because she was HUMAN, just like the rest of us, and through her faith became worthy to be the mother of Jesus.

That He was given to Mary to raise was her great blessing and honor; that she was who she was is the result of her great faith and character.

No reason to believe Mary was born of the Immaculate Conception? Maybe not in your church. The thinking of the Catholic Faith is in this thread already and is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Does everyone who leaves confession come out free of sin? If they truly confessed all there sins yes. But that has nothing to do with being born of sin, does it? Nor does the Catholic Faith allow anyone to receive Communion unless in a State of Grace. In other words the post above which relates to that is false. And there will be no links stating otherwise because they don’t exist. {thats not your words though}

There also will be no links from the Catholic Church which state anything but the Immaculate Conception. Neither do they exist

While your faith believes there you are not born into sin. Ours believes we are all born into sin… And Christ was the only in the NT born without sin.

Impossibly devine Goddess? Those would be “your” words. No-where else do they appear in mine.

All those things I claim are the teaching of the Catholic Church. And if theres a point we need go back to where I being human may have been unclear? By all means lets re-visit it.

I’m limiting God? I believe you are the one doing so by claiming he couldn’t possibly have created the Immaculate Virgin Mother?

If he was born of a prostitute how could he be divine without a Immaculate Conception? Jesus Christ has no sin and couldn’t be born into the New Ark if Mary had sin. Impossible.

What does Full of Grace mean? lacking none, and that wouldn’t apply to a prostitute would it? Do you know anyone Full of Grace? Oh I forgot were all born Full of Grace. The whole world is born Full of Grace? Mormon teaching? And yes how does this fit the Bible? John the Bapist, Adam and Eve, Ark of the Covenant etc.

 

[dianaiad]

Where does that teaching come from? And another question, Why then are we not in the garden of Eden anymore?

That teaching comes from the Atonement. As in–we believe that Jesus Christ’s atonement took care of original sin for all of us. “As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive.” "all, " meaning ‘all.’

Our second Article of Faith says this:

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

Ergo, ‘original sin’ doesn’t affect us; we are all born innocent. We don’t stay that way, but any sin we commit is our fault, not that of Adam, or the result of anything he did.

that’s where that teaching came from.

 

[GaryTaylor]

That second article of faith. What exactly is this? Could I somewhere read it?

 

[rinnie]

That teaching comes from the Atonement. As in–we believe that Jesus Christ’s atonement took care of original sin for all of us. “As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive.” "all, " meaning ‘all.’

Our second Article of Faith says this:

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

Ergo, ‘original sin’ doesn’t affect us; we are all born innocent. We don’t stay that way, but any sin we commit is our fault, not that of Adam, or the result of anything he did.

that’s where that teaching came from.

But then why did he say One Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. While I agree that in Adam we all die, in Christ we are born again (Baptism).

Why did the Apostles teach that in order to have eternal life we must be baptised? What is Baptism to you?

 

[dianaiad]

No reason to believe Mary was born of the Immaculate Conception? Maybe not in your church. The thinking of the Catholic Faith is in this thread already and is teaching of the Catholic Church.

No, the topic of this thread is the percieved notion of …at least the OP…that the opposition to the way Catholics deal with Mary is automatically ‘hostility’ toward MARY. It is, in fact, begging the question. As I have mentioned several times, Protestants (and others who disagree with Catholicism about Mary) are not being hostile to Mary when we disagree with Catholic beliefs about her. The hostility, if it can be called that all the time, is toward the way Catholics percieve her, not toward HER.

I know of no Christian, anywhere, who is hostile towards Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ.

As to the Immaculate Conception…I don’t think you are paying attention. “My church” has absolutely no problem with the idea of the immaculate conception. We are quite certain that Mary was born utterly innocent of original sin. Not a problem there.

But then, we believe that everybody else is born utterly free of orignial sin, too. Which is why arguing the Imacculate conception with us is, well…of course, and???

Does everyone who leaves the confession come out free of sin? If they truly confessed all there sins yes. But that has nothing to do with being born of sin, does it? Nor does the Catholic Faith allow anyone to receive Communion unless in a State of Grace. In other words the post above which relate to that is false. And there will be no links stating otherwise because they don’t exist.

Gary. You are the one who brought it up, this being ‘full of’ and ‘state of’ grace. Sinless is sinless…you either are, or you aren’t. It is my understanding that a Catholic fresh from confession and about to take communion, and in a state of grace, is–for that moment anyway, sinless. All sins forgiven and no new ones committed.

There also will be no links from the Catholic Church which state anything but the Immaculate Conception. Neither do they exist

While your faith believes there you are not born into sin. Ours believes we are all born into sin… And Christ was the only in the NT born without sin.

Impossibly devine Goddess? Those would be “your” words. No-where else do they appear in mine.

All those things I claim are the teaching of the Catholic Church.

there seems to be some disagreement among you on this, Gary. I’m going to wait for the fall out to figure out what the official teaching is. Now, that doesn’t mean I think that you don’t really believe what you claim you do. You do, of course. However, other Catholics believe, at least slightly, differently. As for me, I’m going to back off very slowly, and let you guys figure it out.

I’m limiting God?

Yep. Whenever you claim that there was a requirement that HAD to happen in order for Jesus to be Who He is/was, you are doing exactly that.

I believe you are the one doing so by claiming he couldn’t possibly have created the Immaculate Virgin Mother?

I didn’t claim that He 'couldn’t possibly have created the Immaculate Virgin Mother." I simply claim that there is no evidence that He DID. You are the one who is claiming that He HAD to have created her in order for Jesus to be Who He is/was.

If he was born of a prostitute how could he be divine without a immaculate conception?

Circular, again. He can, because He is Jesus the Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, and God can do anything He wants to. In fact, you are back engineering this…deciding for yourself what had to happen in order for Christ to be Who He is…and that’s not logical.

What does Full of Grace mean? lacking none, and that wouldn’t apply to a prostitute would it?

No, but then that’s not the point I was making. Gary…with all due respect, are you actually paying attention to the posts here–not only mine, but those of the other Catholics who are pointing out the logical problems in your position?

 

[dianaiad]

That second article of faith. What exactly is this? Could I somewhere read it?

Of course. You can read them here.

Remember. These are the Articles of Faith for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. they are not part of the Catholic catechism. However, they do help explain where I am coming from.

 

[Janet1983]

No, the topic of this thread is the percieved notion of …at least the OP…that the opposition to the way Catholics deal with Mary is automatically ‘hostility’ toward MARY. It is, in fact, begging the question. As I have mentioned several times, Protestants (and others who disagree with Catholicism about Mary) are not being hostile to Mary when we disagree with Catholic beliefs about her. The hostility, if it can be called that all the time, is toward the way Catholics percieve her, not toward HER.

I wouldn’t even call that hostility (I mean towards the Catholic teaching). We just disagree.