Why the hostility toward Mary?

[Ashurie]

With all due respect, what authority do anthropology teachers have in the area of spirituality? Or in morality?

And, even if their authority is in anthropological matters, what gives them any authority in this area?

You sound young Ashurie, and I don’t want you to make the grave mistake of falling for any belief just because someone told you it’s true.

Do not judge any beliefs?

Ask yourself this: why not?

Anthropology is a Social Science, like I said before, it not a spiritual subject. Therefore would be on morality basis. It is a subject that I have taken up this year in my University subject…and being non-judgmental is the best way to conduct fieldwork. It make one think, why do they do that? what is the reason? Is it for a spiritual purposes? etc etc

I do not belong to any religious sector like Christianity and Hinduism, because of the judgment to other faiths.

I am probably not as young as you think I am. I know where stand in the world with my faith and I am very comfortable where I am. I have faith in God, and do not feel the need to be part of a sector to make my faith official…I am sure God knows that I love him, cos doesn’t he know all?

If you cannot entertain these questions, Ashurie, then you are not as open-minded as you claim. An educated, open-minded seeker will be willing to pursue the truth, even if it discomfits her.

Am I though, but it hard when it feels like I am not getting through, and that this discussion is not making any progress.

 

[dianaiad]

Huh? Do you mean you were responding to Reuben?

At any rate, I don’t understand your perplexity with a sinless woman not being able to say YES to God?

(throwing up hands)

I don’t have a problem with that. The whole point is that she DID choose, quite freely, to do so.

I was responding to the idea that God designed Mary, specifically, to do this–fixing it that she really didn’t have a choice.

Of course she did. In fact, I believe that the whole thing would have been pretty much worthless had she NOT had a completely free choice to say ‘yea’ or ‘nay…’

 

[Reuben_J]

It’s not a useless supposition…it really goes to the heart of the matter. Did Mary have a choice, or not? The scriptures stated that she agreed–but was that required? Did God force/create her without a say in the matter?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that’s rape.

Before everybody gasps in horror, think about it; deciding that Mary accepted this calling…that it is a ‘useless supposition’ that Mary could have said ‘no,’ goes to the very heart of this side conversation of whether it was necessary that MARY, born immaculate, have given birth to Jesus in order for Him to be Who He was/is. If Mary did not, of her own will and faith, agree to this, then the Calvinists are right.

If Mary did not, or could not, have said ‘no’ in a very real choice, then the honor being paid to her is as a appropriate as the honor paid to a puppet put on a shelf at the end of a show.

…and if Mary had said ‘no, thank you,’ don’t you think God would have had an alternative plan–one that did not involve Mary? He would have to have, if Mary really did have free will.

If there was such a plan, then Mary was not, in and of herself, required. She became who she was by dint of her great obedience and faith; her very real, and unforced, acceptance of what happened to her.

So no, I don’t think it is a useless supposition. IT speaks to a very basic philosophical and religious belief–one that, I think, underpins all things.

Mary had a choice. She could of say no. The rest was history (she said yes).

The phrase ‘useless proposition’ confuses thing a bit. It was not meant to be used the way you understand it, sorry about it. Perhaps I was a little carried away and became a bit rhetorical.

What I meant was, for want of better words, ‘God made a right choice when he chose Mary for she was a right woman in deed and character for the purpose. She was spiritual and obedient to the way of God. All that was needed was for God to make her without sin. She probably understood what it entailed to be the Mother of the Messiah, Simeon’s prophecy notwithstanding likened it to a sword that pierced through her heart.’

Are we (Christians) not like that? We are all part of God’s plan to spread the Gospel. On our part it is a matter of us saying ‘yes’. Some of us do say yes but some may say no.

Here I sort of pre-emp your next question: What about after God had made her immaculate and she said no? My answer hypothetically would be I don’t know! God could choose another woman or started all over again or maybe there is a plan ‘B’. I don’t know. I hope now you understand why I said ‘useless supposition’.

Hope that clarify my last post.

 

[PRmerger]

I was responding to the idea that God designed Mary, specifically, to do this–fixing it that she really didn’t have a choice.

So who says she didn’t really have a choice?

Certainly not the Catholic Church!

 

[PRmerger]

Anthropology is a Social Science, like I said before, it not a spiritual subject. Therefore would be on morality basis. It is a subject that I have taken up this year in my University subject…and being non-judgmental is the best way to conduct fieldwork. It make one think, why do they do that? what is the reason? Is it for a spiritual purposes? etc etc

Well, yes, of course. Being non-judgmental when one conducts field work seems to be a good modus.

How do you translate this to mean that in reality, in assessing Truth, morality, spirituality, theology one cannot judge a belief to be right or wrong? Why do anthropology professors have any authority to tell you this in this spectrum?

And, if one is really “open-minded” one ought to consider the possibility that “do not judge beliefs”, as you’ve been told, could be a wrong paradigm.

I do not belong to any religious sector like Christianity and Hinduism, because of the judgment to other faiths.

And you believe judgment is wrong because of your anthropology professors?

I am probably not as young as you think I am. I know where stand in the world with my faith and I am very comfortable where I am. I have faith in God, and do not feel the need to be part of a sector to make my faith official…I am sure God knows that I love him, cos doesn’t he know all?

And who told you that he knows all?

Am I though, but it hard when it feels like I am not getting through, and that this discussion is not making any progress.

Again, the fact that you are discomfited in this discussion ought not make you disregard these very important questions.

If you cannot answer now, that’s ok.

But I am quite interested in how you know that God “knows all”.

 

[Ashurie]

How do you translate this to mean that in reality, in assessing Truth, morality, spirituality, theology one cannot judge a belief to be right or wrong? Why do anthropology professors have any authority to tell you this in this spectrum?

And you believe judgment is wrong because of your anthropology professors?

On the field, we are told not to judge but think critically about why the do it…I guess it has become a natural thing for me now. On a personal level, I am not judgmental person when it comes to faith and practice - it all happens for a reason. I guess, instead of judging, one can accept.

And who told you that he knows all?

He is God, and God is all around us, that I know. I may not come from a Religious family, but I have friends who are religious.

I honestly think we are finally seeing where we are both coming from

 

[PRmerger]

On the field, we are told not to judge but think critically about why the do it…I guess it has become a natural thing for me now.

Ah. I see.

On a personal level, I am not judgmental person when it comes to faith and practice - it all happens for a reason. I guess, instead of judging, one can accept.

Fair enough.

But you realize, then, that you have just accepted a doctrine “Do not judge beliefs” without any real understanding of why you do it? It’s just a “natural” thing for you to do, following your field work, but not a well-thought out doctrine.

He is God, and God is all around us, that I know.

But how do you know “he knows all”? Air is all around us, too, but clearly it doesn’t “know all”.

I may not come from a Religious family, but I have friends who are religious.

And is it from them that you learned that “God knows all”?

 

[Ashurie]

Ah. I see.
But how do you know “he knows all”? Air is all around us, too, but clearly it doesn’t “know all”.

And is it from them that you learned that “God knows all”?

To my understanding the essence of God is in everything, he is always around us.
It is my way of thinking to…the idea of the creator always being around always creating

 

[PRmerger]

To my understanding the essence of God is in everything, he is always around us.
It is my way of thinking to…the idea of the creator always being around always creating

I understand that this is your belief.

My question, Ashurie, is: how do you know this? Did it come in a private revelation in a dream? Did God speak to you in a letter?

As you are not a Christian you don’t believe that the Catholic Church and its teachings are part of God’s revelation. It is the Catholic Church which has revealed that God knows all, that is, that God is omniscient.

Since you aren’t Catholic, how is it you have come to know that God “is always around us”?

 

[Ashurie]

I understand that this is your belief.

My question, Ashurie, is: how do you know this? Did it come in a private revelation in a dream? Did God speak to you in a letter?

As you are not a Christian you don’t believe that the Catholic Church and its teachings are part of God’s revelation. It is the Catholic Church which has revealed that God knows all, that is, that God is omniscient.

Since you aren’t Catholic, how is it you have come to know that God “is always around us”?

Maybe he has spoken to me…because to be honest, it is what sounds right to me. It’s unexplainable.

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe he has spoken to me…because to be honest, it is what sounds right to me. It’s unexplainable.

Fair enough. God has spoken to you that he is everywhere and knows all.

Is this how you discern truth? By an uncertain feeling that perhaps this is what you’re supposed to believe?

 

[Ashurie]

Fair enough. God has spoken to you that he is everywhere and knows all.

Is this how you discern truth? By an uncertain feeling that perhaps this is what you’re supposed to believe?

yeah I guess so, I have always had a “connection” or really and “attraction” to the church - i absolutely love visiting Cathedrals. The Spiritual energy in them are amazing!

 

[Cat_Herder]

I’m curious, is there any particular place within a given Catholic church building that you feel the strongest attraction to?

 

[Ashurie]

I’m curious, is there any particular place within a given Catholic church building that you feel the strongest attraction to?

In a Catholic church, the chapel’s for the Saints and Mary

 

[PRmerger]

yeah I guess so, I have always had a “connection” or really and “attraction” to the church -

But, Ashurie, do you not see how getting Truth from a feeling you have is so arbitrary? What if you get the feeling that you need to sacrifice animals in order to please god? How will you know if this is what God really wants?

 

[PRmerger]

In a Catholic church, the chapel’s for the Saints and Mary

What does this mean? What’s a “chapel for the Saints and Mary”?

 

[Cat_Herder]

What does this mean? What’s a “chapel for the Saints and Mary”?

She’s referring to the side chapels that are sometimes found in larger churches and cathedrals, like these at the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.

But what I’m really getting at is – have you visited the Blessed Sacrament?

 

[Ashurie]

But, Ashurie, do you not see how getting Truth from a feeling you have is so arbitrary? What if you get the feeling that you need to sacrifice animals in order to please god? How will you know if this is what God really wants?

I talk to God, Mary, Jesus and the Angels quite regularly, I believe that if they want me to join a religious sector to make my faith official, they will tell me. But until then, I am very much comfortable where I am now…as long as I am still able to talk to them

If was going to join a religious sector it would be out of curiosity and to see what it was like.

She’s referring to the side chapels that are sometimes found in larger churches and cathedrals, like these at the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.

But what I’m really getting at is – have you visited the Blessed Sacrament?

Yeah, in St. Patrick’s Cathedral in Melbourne, they are so beautiful. There is one for Jesus, Mary, St. Patrick and St. Bridget.

I have been to the Catholic one during the day Felt kind of out of place xD only because there was only a few people around, and I was the only non-Catholic. Either way it was lovely.

 

[PRmerger]

She’s referring to the side chapels that are sometimes found in larger churches and cathedrals, like these at the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.

But what I’m really getting at is – have you visited the Blessed Sacrament?

Ah. :aok:

 

[GaryTaylor]

No, Gary. You are incorrect. The teaching is not that she HAD to be sinless in order to be the *theotokos. *

YES!!! That’s why God did not NEED Mary to be sinless. He was quite *capable *of coming to earth in a sinful vessel (but He did not, of course).

In fact, that’s what Mary did. She came to earth in a sinful vessel.

Exactly.

Then you have no response when a non-Catholic asks you: if you say Jesus could not come to earth in a sinful vessel, then how could Mary?

What is your response, Gary?

OK lets re-visit {with open minds, no bickering} BTW I do think you have interesting take on all of this.

Yet Canon Law 1247 states Required belief of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary and places December 8th as the day required to attend Mass. I could be wrong l’m not positive how it is today, it may have changed but when I attended Catholic-School we were told this is a mortal sin or grievous sin not to attend. Matter of fact All 6 US Holy Days of Obligation for that matter. So we are on the same page this is required Catholic teaching right? Is it required anyone in particular must believe? Everyone through free-will is intitled to there own belief. What the teaching is, it is. Sort of like the leading one to water quote.

Next… Is the teaching Mary had to be sinless? Thus why a Virgin? Its Bible and teaching. Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel

Many thoughts come to mind with this but yes God had to be born of a Virgin. I’ve heard a Few different theorys on this “all” of which make sense. Yet I believe Mary is the New of Ark of the Covenant which I posted on earlier. But there are also Bible verse’s which confirm the thinking that this was intentional as for there to be no mistake on exactly who Jesus was when born. They all sound good to me. And if I think about this way then a different perspective unfolds. I’m pro-active so you get the idea where I’m at.

Now lets look at this, God being God and aside from whats stated in the Bible. Could he came to earth through a women conceived as you and I? Here we are placing ourself in the reality of God and assuming what he can or can’t do. Maybe he can maybe he can’t if we think about the old testament said and the Ark. Thats what makes me think he has to be surrounded purity. But again this is God who created all this. He could do what he choose’s. But we do know what he did choose to do whenever he came here no? I also think at this point about the conversations with Adam, Eve, Cain etc. The jurys out on this one. We can debate this till the cows come home, and they never do.

Mary born of a Sinself vessel? Well if St Anne had conceived Mary as we all were conceived. Then this would be correct. But alas she didn’t so Mary wasn’t conceived with sin which relates back to the ex-cathedra letter and speech of the 1850’s and Canon Law etc.

Could it be debated that God could have choose anyone for the Immaculate Conception? Oh of course it could all day long. But that only further confirms the reality of how important Mary was in Gods plan, because he did chose her. Thus Jesus through Mary were was the plan.

You know its difficult to even put ourselves in this period of time. Yet what did God say at Sodom and Gomorrah? Just show me 10 men, just 10. And it couldn’t be done. Well I say that, to say this. We know that God knows all we think and hears all we say, also from Genesis. I wonder just how many, not that he could have originally choose. But that could have fulfilled their responsibilty of raising Jesus Christ without error? Tough questions.

Anyway as I had just mentioned on another thread. We have all kinds of Catholics from pragmatic to pro-active to in name only. And same with all Christians. Its not a wrong or right but a reality. I don’t believe it could be anyother way in this period of time. I do believe Christology could be all under one church and teaching though.

Anyway God Bless, Gary