Why the hostility toward Mary?

[Born_Warrior]

[BIBLEDRB]Psalm 50:4-7[/BIBLEDRB]

More quotes that do not support what you are trying to say.

 

[Cat_Herder]

More quotes that do not support what you are trying to say.

I am just the unworthy messenger.

 

[rikkk1958]

You did not misunderstand me, I stand corrected if I said half, half but its the same logic if I call them full to believe in Jesus. Truly, to make it clear yes they are fully man and God. I just wanted to imply that the Son of Man was in flesh also.

However, the logic you are trying to bring up is philosophical because you insist on your own interpretation and not on how the question is based on the the Scriptures. We as Catholics has to obey and follow what the Scriptures say therefore, not only that the Scriptures can be interpreted by somebody like you and me, we also have to consider those who were present during those times, and scholars who attributed to make the dogma.

One thing I can explain to you logically is “Why God did not make us robots so that we can just obey everything He says?” Nobody knows the purpose of God and this is like how you are asking why God did not make all of us sinless. We all know God can do anything, but the story of Mary is so special that God wants us to fully understand how much He loves us and must do likewise to Him. God wants us to make our knowledge be used on ways He said we should if we want to be saved.

 

[PRmerger]

Again, BW, please learn how to use the QUOTE feature. It is a common courtesy so others can respond more readily to your posts.

To see what you’re doing to us, try to respond to your own posts by hitting “quote” (icon at bottom right) and you will see nothing shows up.

Thank you.

True. However the rebuttal will be, “You are wrong, she is sinless, Hail Mary!” since not one little thing in the Bible hints that she is sinless.

This is simply disingenuous, BW. Have you not read all of the apologias provided? No one’s rebuttal has been even close to that.

Not to highjack your thread, but I just had a discussion with a someone who did not believe that Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Mary’s parents, grandparents, etc, and the 12 Apostles were Jewish. The also didn’t know that the church’s first outreach was conducted by Jews (early Christians were Jews, he didn’t know that either) and they followed accepted Jewish practices. It is a shame what people don’t realize about Christian history.

Well, as a non-Catholic Christian you have no way to refute his claims, if that’s what he understands from his personal interpretation of Scripture. Whether he’s a Catholic or a Protestant, you cannot criticize his views if he feels he was guided by the Holy Spirit to come to this understanding after reading the Scriptures.

 

[Born_Warrior]

Well, as a non-Catholic Christian you have no way to refute his claims, if that’s what he understands from his personal interpretation of Scripture. Whether he’s a Catholic or a Protestant, you cannot criticize his views if he feels he was guided by the Holy Spirit to come to this understanding after reading the Scriptures.

What do you mean I have no way to refute his claims? Jesus, Mary, her family, Joseph and his family, and all the Apostles were Jewish. How would anyone who has read the Bible (even the Cliff Notes version!) think otherwise? The guy I talked to was Catholic. He said he never learned that in church, I told him he must of slept ever time he went to Church. I do find what he said hard to believe, since I can’t imagine the Catholic church wouldn’t teach that or even mention the fact the Jesus was Jewish.

 

[Janet1983]

[BIBLEDRB]Psalm 50:4-7[/BIBLEDRB]

I love that psalm, but what does this have to do with Jesus being sinless without the necessity of Mary being sinless also?

If God can save someone from conception (as you say happened in the case of Mary), why couldn’t He have been incarnated sinless in the case of Mary not being sinless?

Isn’t that limiting the potential of God?
If He was capable of protecting Mary from sin, wouldn’t He have been capable to protect Jesus?

And if it were as you described, wouldn’t then Mary’s parents have to be sinless too, in order for her to be sinless? Wouldn’t her grandparents have to be sinless just as well as her parents would have been sinless? Wouldn’t every generation before that have to be sinless including David?

God is almighty. He is capable of going ahead and being born to a woman who is not free from all sin all the while being sinless Himself.

Her being necessarily sinless does not make any sense. At all.

Mary was immensely blessed, but she was a mere human after all and that means that she was not sinless.

Had Mary been sinless throughout her life, she could have bore the sin of the world and would have been the perfect sacrifice and Jesus Christ could have stayed where He was and He wouldn’t have had to humble Himself into deepest humiliation and anguish to die on the cross for our sins. If Mary had been sinless she would have been the one to fulfill the Law by keeping it perfectly.

I don’t have any doubt at all that Mary was a godly woman, a wonderful wife and a loving mother. I don’t have any doubt whatsoever that Jesus loved and cherished His mother and took great care of her and made sure that she was taken care of.
However the Bible does not give me any reason to believe that Mary was sinless.

What Scripture does do however is giving me every reason to believe that the Lord Himself was the one person who was without sin.

 

[Born_Warrior]

I am just the unworthy messenger.

Maybe you should put a message in your messages.

 

[Publisher]

What do you mean I have no way to refute his claims? Jesus, Mary, her family, Joseph and his family, and all the Apostles were Jewish. How would anyone who has read the Bible (even the Cliff Notes version!) think otherwise? The guy I talked to was Catholic. He said he never learned that in church, I told him he must of slept ever time he went to Church. I do find what he said hard to believe, since I can’t imagine the Catholic church wouldn’t teach that or even mention the fact the Jesus was Jewish.

I lived in the South for a few years about 25 years ago…Huntsville AL for about 18 months and then north to Nashville TN for about 2 years. I discussed faith with some of my co-workers who had ties to some “fringe” religious groups. When I live in Alabama I was about 10 miles from the meeting grounds of the KKK in my area…I was “warned” not to go to the park on the hill at certain times of the month.

Anyway, in these discussions the subject came up that “Jesus was a Jew.”…The look of shock on the faces was surprising. “Jesus was not a Jew!!! He was an Israelite.” Evidently due to the prejudice concerning Jews from the KKK influence…it was a shock to find someone who actually articulated Jesus and his disciples ethnic “persuasion” as “Jewish”…something they had never heard from the pulpit before.

 

[Born_Warrior]

Her point is wrong, there is nothing to interpet. Jesus , Mary, Joseph and the Apostles were all Jewish, that is a fact. You don’t need any hierachy or authority to figure that out. Every Atheist I run across and tried to give the word to say, “You know Jesus was Jewish, right?”

Here is a better way to prove my point - Jharek, was Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the Apostles Jewish?

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I love that psalm, but what does this have to do with Jesus being sinless without the necessity of Mary being sinless also?

If God can save someone from conception (as you say happened in the case of Mary), why couldn’t He have been incarnated sinless in the case of Mary not being sinless?

Isn’t that limiting the potential of God?
If He was capable of protecting Mary from sin, wouldn’t He have been capable to protect Jesus?

And if it were as you described, wouldn’t then Mary’s parents have to be sinless too, in order for her to be sinless? Wouldn’t her grandparents have to be sinless just as well as her parents would have been sinless? Wouldn’t every generation before that have to be sinless including David?

Ummm, I am having flashbacks here. It was not NECESSARY, it was FITTING that she be conceived without sin. Look at it like this, if you had the opportunity to create your mother, would make her subject to sin? Would you make her a slave or would you make her completely free of all sin?

God is almighty. He is capable of going ahead and being born to a woman who is not free from all sin all the while being sinless Himself.

Absolutely.

Her being necessarily sinless does not make any sense. At all.

It absolutely does under the definition of kecharitomene, the knowledge that it was an unnecessary and undeserved grace but fitting, and the analogy I gave above.

Mary was immensely blessed, but she was a mere human after all and that means that she was not sinless.

Had Mary been sinless throughout her life, she could have bore the sin of the world and would have been the perfect sacrifice and Jesus Christ could have stayed where He was and He wouldn’t have had to humble Himself into deepest humiliation and anguish to die on the cross for our sins. If Mary had been sinless she would have been the one to fulfill the Law by keeping it perfectly.

Absolutely not. Mary was a mere human, as you say, but she was a human who was “full of grace” from the moment of conception as has been discussed to death on this thread.

She could not have born the sin of the world, just as Adam and Eve could not. She required a savior, and that savior was brought into the world through her, Jesus Christ.

I don’t have any doubt at all that Mary was a godly woman, a wonderful wife and a loving mother. I don’t have any doubt whatsoever that Jesus loved and cherished His mother and took great care of her and made sure that she was taken care of.
However the Bible does not give me any reason to believe that Mary was sinless.

Then you need a better understanding of what it means to be full of Grace and perhaps a better understanding of what Grace, by definition, is.

What Scripture does do however is giving me every reason to believe that the Lord Himself was the one person who was without sin.

What about Elizabeth and Zechariah?

Luke 1:6

And they were both just before God, walking in all the commandments and justifications of the Lord without blame.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Her point is wrong, there is nothing to interpet. Jesus , Mary, Joseph and the Apostles were all Jewish, that is a fact. You don’t need any hierachy or authority to figure that out. Every Atheist I run across and tried to give the word to say, “You know Jesus was Jewish, right?”

Here is a better way to prove my point - Jharek, was Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the Apostles Jewish?

I can answer this with tongue firmly planted in cheek:

No. They were Christian.

Now prove me wrong…

 

[Born_Warrior]

I can answer this with tongue firmly planted in cheek:

No. They were Christian.

Now prove me wrong…

Ok, two can play at this game…

I can answer this with tongue firmly planted in cheek:

Read the Bible

Now prove me wrong

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Ok, two can play at this game…

I can answer this with tongue firmly planted in cheek:

Read the Bible

Now prove me wrong

Glad you asked…

Well the definition of Christian is “Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.” Therefore, since Mary, Joseph, and the apostles all followed the teachings of Christ (Or in the case of Mary and Joseph lived exclusively for Christ) then they are by definition Christian. The Bible repeatedly affirms that they sought to follow Christ in all things, correct? So they were Christian.

Oh, and since Paul repeatedly affirms that the old Jewish laws are no longer important, there is even stronger evidence that they were not Jewish.

Your turn.

FSC

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

He was just poking fun at me, its all good.

 

[PRmerger]

Had Mary been sinless throughout her life, she could have bore the sin of the world and would have been the perfect sacrifice and Jesus Christ could have stayed where He was and He wouldn’t have had to humble Himself into deepest humiliation and anguish to die on the cross for our sins. If Mary had been sinless she would have been the one to fulfill the Law by keeping it perfectly.

No, Janet. Christ’s death was atonement for our sins not because he was sinless,*** but because he was GOD.***

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

No, Janet. Christ’s death was atonement for our sins not because he was sinless,*** but because he was GOD.***

Oh man, I cant believe I missed that!!! Sometimes the low hanging fruit slips past the watchful eyes of tall men…

FSC

 

[Cat_Herder]

I love that psalm, but what does this have to do with Jesus being sinless without the necessity of Mary being sinless also?

General rule: humans are conceived with original sin.

Exception:

Genesis 3:15 NRSV
I will put enmity between you and the woman,
***and between your offspring and hers;
he will strike your head,
***and you will strike his heel.’

If God can save someone from conception (as you say happened in the case of Mary), why couldn’t He have been incarnated sinless in the case of Mary not being sinless?

Because both the woman and Her Seed are supposed to be at enmity with the devil.

Isn’t that limiting the potential of God?

He keeps His promises and the Immaculate Conception was one of them.

If He was capable of protecting Mary from sin, wouldn’t He have been capable to protect Jesus?

Yes but not protecting Mary would breach the promise.

And if it were as you described, wouldn’t then Mary’s parents have to be sinless too, in order for her to be sinless? Wouldn’t her grandparents have to be sinless just as well as her parents would have been sinless? Wouldn’t every generation before that have to be sinless including David?

No. God made no such promise with regard to their enmity with the devil. David was holy but also a notorious backslider.

God is almighty. He is capable of going ahead and being born to a woman who is not free from all sin all the while being sinless Himself.

Of course He is, but that wasn’t His plan.

Her being necessarily sinless does not make any sense. At all.

You are not as smart as God is and neither am I.

Had Mary been sinless throughout her life, she could have bore the sin of the world and would have been the perfect sacrifice and Jesus Christ could have stayed where He was and He wouldn’t have had to humble Himself into deepest humiliation and anguish to die on the cross for our sins. If Mary had been sinless she would have been the one to fulfill the Law by keeping it perfectly.

Problem: Mary is not God. I think the overarching problem here is that you think sinless humans are gods. Adam and Eve were not gods. Enoch and Elijah and even Moses may have been almost sinless (like Mary, they were raptured) but they were not gods.

 

[PRmerger]

What do you mean I have no way to refute his claims?

I mean just that. You can’t refute his claims. What authority do you have to say that your interpretation of Scripture is correct and his isn’t? He read the verses in Scripture and no where did it say “Jesus was a Jew”, so he has his “Holy Spirit-guided” viewpoint and, in your paradigm, that’s all that’s needed isn’t it?

You, the Bible and the Holy Spirit? The Holy Trinity of Interpretation?

The guy I talked to was Catholic. He said he never learned that in church, I told him he must of slept ever time he went to Church. I do find what he said hard to believe, since I can’t imagine the Catholic church wouldn’t teach that or even mention the fact the Jesus was Jewish.

Sadly, what you say is not surprising to me. There are more clueless-Joe Catholics than there are subscribers to the CAFs. :sad_yes:

 

[Janet1983]

No, Janet. Christ’s death was atonement for our sins not because he was sinless, but because he was GOD.

What? Where did you get that teaching?
OK. I must confess that I am totally thrown off as of right now… :hypno:

 

[PRmerger]

What? Where did you get that teaching?
OK. I must confess that I am totally thrown off as of right now… :hypno:

It is love “to the end” that confers on Christ’s sacrifice its value as redemption and reparation, as atonement and satisfaction. He knew and loved us all when he offered his life. Now "the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died." No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in** Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.**CCC 616

Not to mention–where in the bible does it affirm your POV–that *any *sinless creature could have provided atonement for the sins of humanity?