Why the inconsistency?

[Xuan]

I don’t post very often, but I’ve been thinking about this for a long time and I decided to ask the question. I’m posting it here because I’d like non-Catholic opinions too.

Christianity treats the OT commandments like law, not just goals to strive for, but law. If someone violates one of them, it’s a sin, often mortal, and the person is hellbound. It’s pretty much one strike and you’re out.

Well, Christ gave us a couple of commandments too, the second of which is to love your neighbor as yourself. And He made it very clear that your neighbor is everyone.

How many people do you know who actually love everyone as much as they love themselves, or even as much as they love their own children? I’m not talking about platitudes like “I love everyone because they’re all created in the image of God” or “I pray for everyone” or “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” I’m talking about actually loving them: investing as much time, energy, and money toward their betterment as one invests toward one’s own betterment… not just ignoring them.

I don’t know any such people. I don’t think there’s more than a handful of such people in the whole world. Thus, almost the entire human race is in a constant state of violation of Christ’s second commandment. But the Church doesn’t even consider it a sin, especially not a mortal sin.
Instead the Church seems to consider the commandment simply as a goal… something to strive for. Christ didn’t say it was just something to strive for; He said it was a commandment.

So, apparently, we have “commandments” and we have “commandments.” Why aren’t Christ’s commandments treated like “real” commandments Why the inconsistency? I have my own opinion, but I’d like to hear others’ first.

 

[Noesis]

How many people do you know who actually love everyone as much as they love themselves, or even as much as they love their own children?

Agape is basically the procedure of the virtue of friendship, and as such is a sensitivity to the human soul. The state of agape is a total receptivity of everyone. As a virtue, then, it is cultivated, not just by Christians, but by many religions and world-visions. (Indeed, the idea comes from Greek philosophy, and there are many non-Christian examples of it in the West.) I have known many people who adhere to agape in their treatment of others.

It is wrong, however, to impose onto agape the sort of love a person would have for their own children; and it is likewise improper to think that one can lack virtue with regard to others, by not maintaining with everyone they meet the sort of ties they might share with their closest family.

As always, it is best to refrain from legalism as a force which trumps reason.

 

[Apollos]

Why the inconsistency?

Because external conformity is visible and measurable and in a sense more certain. It’s called legalism.

 

[Warrenton]

The question illustrates the problems that arise when we remove Christianity out of the context of the Christian life and world.

We have children and wives and husbands so we we can live out the commandment “love thy neighbor.” Ourr wives, or husbands, sons, daughters, and family are our neighbors. St. Paul, at least in the marital context, clarifies this. As a matter of practical Christianity, most of us will either obtain salvation or go to perdition based on how we treated our families.

 

[fbl9]

I don’t post very often, but I’ve been thinking about this for a long time and I decided to ask the question. I’m posting it here because I’d like non-Catholic opinions too.

so in obeying the ten commandments one is obeying Christ’s commandment to love thy neighbour.

 

[Xuan]

Agape is basically the procedure of the virtue of friendship, and as such is a sensitivity to the human soul. The state of agape is a total receptivity of everyone. As a virtue, then, it is cultivated, not just by Christians, but by many religions and world-visions. (Indeed, the idea comes from Greek philosophy, and there are many non-Christian examples of it in the West.) I have known many people who adhere to agape in their treatment of others.

It is wrong, however, to impose onto agape the sort of love a person would have for their own children; and it is likewise improper to think that one can lack virtue with regard to others, by not maintaining with everyone they meet the sort of ties they might share with their closest family.

As always, it is best to refrain from legalism as a force which trumps reason.

Hi Noesis,
Thank you for your response. It brings up a couple more questions, though. What it the type of love called that parents share with their children? And what is the type of love called that a person has for himself? Christ said to love others “as you love yourself.” Certainly one’s love for oneself is much deeper than a simple offer of friendship.

 

[Logic101]

Parents love towards children is first in degree toward the commandment that says “you should love your neighbour as yourselves”!
Second in degree: children’s love towards parents
3rd, between spouses
4th, toward relatives
5th, toward friends
6th, everybody else

 

[Logic101]

Love toward yourself is called self-love!
There are 5 loves:
1st in degree toward God
2nd toward your children
3rd toward your spouse
4th toward your job
5th toward your country
All else is a vice!
Chastity: A Guide for Teens and Young Adults by Gerald Kelly: This book clearly explains; True friendship, Choice of a Marriage Partner, General Attraction, Personal Attraction, The Meaning of Chastity… “Any action is a serious sin against chastity when it is performed with the intention of stimulating or promoting venereal pleasure.”
Read for free online at: www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/chastity.html

 

[Trishie]

How can you make a generalization about the billions of others on this planet? How can you speak for other Christians That is judging other by your own perceived framework. You don’t know others. Only God does.
“No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit.” 1 Corinthians 2:11

 

[Trishie]

May I ask, how would you expect us to demonstrate love of others…and yes we do try, the best we can manage.

But most of us have limited resources and limited time. We work, we take care of our families and many of us barely can cover the costs and energy needed just to cope with the people in our families and immediate circle. How many in our neighborhood and city and country, would you expect us to give our limited time, energy, and resources to when we can barely cover our own immediate responsibilities? And even those who have more, how far would you have them expend and extend what they have to meet your idea of loving everyone in the same manner? If we give all the practical suport to everyone in our neighbourhood and town and city and country, then our own children would starve and have no shelter as we’d all lose our homes (which isn’t actually fun as I know from personal experience)

God gives us families where our primary responsibility is concerned. You may not experience the goodwill and kindness of others, but the rest of us do what we can…and even in these forums, people come with their prayer needs and worries, and a lot of complete strangers give them support and prayer, and sometimes it actually helps them to survive and even recover…I’ve had innumerable PMs myself that demonstrate that thought and time and encouragement and prayer give to others sometimes bears fruit.

We do the best we can manage. For instance when those around us are ill, we try our best to encourage and support them.
You might like to read Matthew 25 verses 31 to 46 to see what Jesus does actually expect of us in practical acts of kindness to others. And many Christians, and others, do such things. Jesus doesn’t ask something unreasonable. I hope you really will read Matthew 25, Jesus’ description of how He interprets His commandment, and that He judges us on those practical acts of kindness. What He asks isn’t over the top. He asks of us practical acts of kindness that most of us do anyway in some form or other for people not our own family as well as family.

God’s kind blessings to you.

 

[Trishie]

Hi Noesis,
Thank you for your response. It brings up a couple more questions, though. What it the type of love called that parents share with their children? And what is the type of love called that a person has for himself? Christ said to love others “as you love yourself.” Certainly one’s love for oneself is much deeper than a simple offer of friendship.

** I have answered your question in my journal in prayer form so I guess that might still serve your purpose:**

‘Love others…as yourself’

Jesus when You command us to love others as ourselves, You require something more challenging than simply to “love others.” The embedded touchstone in that command is “love your self.” Help us therefore not to be uncharitable to ourselves.

Many people lack proper self-esteem, making it difficult for them to genuinely value others. However, Scripture exhorts, “value yourself at your proper worth. Who can justify a man who runs himself down, or respect a man who despises himself.” [Ecclesiasticus 10:28-29] If we do fail to love ourselves correctly, we cannot accept God’s love. Let us never imagine ourselves hidden from Your mercy: ‘“Can anyone hide in a dark corner without my seeing him?’ asks the Lord.” [Jeremiah 23-24]

The concept of rightly loving oneself in order to love others as God’s precious children may be confused with the selfishness that ruins unselfish self-love. It requires us to reject negative self-talk and responses. “If a man is mean to himself, to whom will he be good?” [Ecclesiasticus 14:3].

Growth in Christian self-love is facilitated by “filling your mind with everything that is true, everything that is noble, and everything that is pure and good” [Philippians 4:8] and serving “in works of love.” It is allowing the Spirit to direct your life and then “you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence. What the Spirit brings is…love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, trustfulness, gentleness and self-control.” [Galatians 5:13, 16, 26, 22-23]

Jesus, help us to fittingly love ourselves. You do not wish us to disparage ourselves but to see ourselves as loved, forgiven children of God. A poor self-image may compare to our perception of ‘clouds’. To observers, clouds appear to be impressive, substantial and tangible. However, within themselves the clouds seem damp, insubstantial and misty.

Jesus, let us not belittle ourselves in comparison to others because of our personal uncertainties and inadequacies. Let us live in sincere acceptance of self, that unique gift of Your creative love. help us to see ourselves as loved children of God. Jesus, help me to know that You really love me so that I can love You and love others truly.

Confidence in God’s merciful love

Our God, we praise and thank You who loves each person into existence. I thank You for loving us, loving me. Like many people in human history, I often find it difficult to sincerely and consistently love myself. Yet You love each person so much that it led to the incarnation of Your divine Son, and to His redemption of humankind. Jesus is Your response to our betrayal of our destiny and our true selves. Yet frequently we are unconvinced or indifferent before these astounding gifts of divine love for every person!

Please give me grace to value each person, and my own life, as Your beloved and eternal gift. Inspire me with faith and gratitude for the gift of myself, for the lives of dear ones and of all people. Grant that these human gifts are shaped by Your love to become everlasting gifts to You, and through You, eternal gifts to each other person.

Through Jesus, You taught us that cheerful, loving mutual service of others leads to fulfilment of Your creative will. Therefore, give me grace to faithfully say ‘yes’ to Your loving purpose by active respect and charity to others and me. Delight Yourself in me by forming me into the unselfish, joyful, helpful and prayerful person You dreamed me to be for You and others’ souls for time and eternity.

 

[Nine_Two]

First it needs to be pointed out that Christianity is not a one-strike-and-your-out religion. In fact all major groups within Christianity believe it is inevitable we all sin in major ways. If it was one screw up was all it took, Christianity would be preaching everyone goes to hell (which some smaller sects do teach).

As for loving your neighbor, it means you should care for them. I’m not sure if the bible uses agape or philos, but agape means you’d give anything to help your fellow man, even your life. Thus the vast majority (myself included) fall short on this one. Philos simply means the love between friends. It’s noteworthy that when Christ asked Peter if he loved him the first two times he used Agape, switching to Philos the third time, while Peter answered with Philos each time.

 

[tester]

I don’t post very often, but I’ve been thinking about this for a long time and I decided to ask the question. I’m posting it here because I’d like non-Catholic opinions too.

Christianity treats the OT commandments like law, not just goals to strive for, but law. If someone violates one of them, it’s a sin, often mortal, and the person is hellbound. It’s pretty much one strike and you’re out.

Well, Christ gave us a couple of commandments too, the second of which is to love your neighbor as yourself. And He made it very clear that your neighbor is everyone.

How many people do you know who actually love everyone as much as they love themselves, or even as much as they love their own children? I’m not talking about platitudes like “I love everyone because they’re all created in the image of God” or “I pray for everyone” or “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” I’m talking about actually loving them: investing as much time, energy, and money toward their betterment as one invests toward one’s own betterment… not just ignoring them.

I don’t know any such people. I don’t think there’s more than a handful of such people in the whole world. Thus, almost the entire human race is in a constant state of violation of Christ’s second commandment. But the Church doesn’t even consider it a sin, especially not a mortal sin.
Instead the Church seems to consider the commandment simply as a goal… something to strive for. Christ didn’t say it was just something to strive for; He said it was a commandment.

So, apparently, we have “commandments” and we have “commandments.” Why aren’t Christ’s commandments treated like “real” commandments Why the inconsistency? I have my own opinion, but I’d like to hear others’ first.

Before your questions above can be answered: you need to the anwser this question first?

What is the purpose of the Ten Commandments / Law?

I’ll give you a hint.

If you are driving down a road at 35 mph: are you breaking the law?

 

[Trishie]

I think you are mistaken in thinking people don’t in their quiet ways try to live the commandment of Jesus to love others as ourselves…and often the hardest person for us to love is ourselves. To love ourselves is the command within the command. And in giving that intrinsic command, Jesus isn’t speaking of self-indulgence, but the welcoming of the eternal gift of life and self that God has given us. This love of self is directed towards God, and this gift of self, being human, helps us to better understand and act kindly and value other persons, who equally, are wonderful unique gifts of God.

Our love “is not to be mere words or mere talk, but something real and active; only by this can we be certain that we are children of the truth.” [John 3:18-19]
“Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You; or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and make You welcome; naked and clothe You; sick or in prison and go to see You?” Jesus replies “I tell you solemnly, in so far as you did this to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me.” “In so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least, you neglected to do it to me.” [Matthew 25:37-40, 45-46]

 

[tester]

Before your questions above can be answered: you need to the anwser this question first?

What is the purpose of the Ten Commandments / Law?

I’ll give you a hint.

If you are driving down a road at 35 mph: are you breaking the law?

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. (Romans 3:20)

**No one will be saved by trying to keep the Ten Commandments! The purpose of the commandments is to reveal sin. **

in action and thought!!

Matthew 5:
Murder
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Adultery
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law!’" (Gal. 3:10)

“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” (Jam. 2:10)

**WOW!!!
who can keep those standards?

how can anyone be “good enough” in action and thought to get into heaven?**

God condemns all as sinners. There is no one righteous, not even one. All have turned away. There is no one who does good, not even one. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God!" (Rom. 3:19,10,12,22,23)…

Maybe if i tried harder to be better of a person , or put more money in a collection plate , or served in a soup kitchen , or…

 

[Xuan]

May I ask, how would you expect us to demonstrate love of others…and yes we do try, the best we can manage.

But most of us have limited resources and limited time. We work, we take care of our families and many of us barely can cover the costs and energy needed just to cope with the people in our families and immediate circle. How many in our neighborhood and city and country, would you expect us to give our limited time, energy, and resources to when we can barely cover our own immediate responsibilities? And even those who have more, how far would you have them expend and extend what they have to meet your idea of loving everyone in the same manner? If we give all the practical suport to everyone in our neighbourhood and town and city and country, then our own children would starve and have no shelter as we’d all lose our homes (which isn’t actually fun as I know from personal experience)

God gives us families where our primary responsibility is concerned. You may not experience the goodwill and kindness of others, but the rest of us do what we can…and even in these forums, people come with their prayer needs and worries, and a lot of complete strangers give them support and prayer, and sometimes it actually helps them to survive and even recover…I’ve had innumerable PMs myself that demonstrate that thought and time and encouragement and prayer give to others sometimes bears fruit.

We do the best we can manage. For instance when those around us are ill, we try our best to encourage and support them.
You might like to read Matthew 25 verses 31 to 46 to see what Jesus does actually expect of us in practical acts of kindness to others. And many Christians, and others, do such things. Jesus doesn’t ask something unreasonable. I hope you really will read Matthew 25, Jesus’ description of how He interprets His commandment, and that He judges us on those practical acts of kindness. What He asks isn’t over the top. He asks of us practical acts of kindness that most of us do anyway in some form or other for people not our own family as well as family.

God’s kind blessings to you.

Hi Trishie,
Thank you so much for your posts. Matthew 25 verses 31-46 is one of my favorite passages. “What you do for the least of them you do for me.”

You’re right; I don’t know what’s in peoples hearts or minds. I only know what I can perceive, and it may or may not be accurate. I see people having so much and not sharing with others. I’m guilty there too. I give quite a bit to charity, but not as much as I could. When I see someone, whether it’s someone I know, or a stranger, I purposely try to see Christ in him/her. It makes a huge difference in the way I treat people. But I have a long way to go. And I think we all do, Christian or not.

But that’s my point: we treat Christ’s commandments as goals to strive for, knowing that we will probably never fulfill them completely, but constantly trying. And it’s not a “sin” to fall somewhat short. It’s a reasonable approach. And that’s why I compared it to the OT commandments.

I don’t know much about Judaism, but I remember reading a few years ago that Jews look at them more as instructions, something to strive for, than as commandments. That makes much more sense to me. Sure, there are some, like “Don’t murder” that we can fulfill completely, but others that aren’t so clear-cut. The best we can do is strive to fulfill them, but if we fall a little short, it’s considered a “sin.”

The two different approaches don’t seem consistent.

 

[Logic101]

God gives an aid to those who decide to love Him, for they have showed good will! Love is nothing else than the active virtues (infused at Baptism) in a soul! Did he not infuse you with Theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity? And cardinal virtues: Prudence, Justice, Fortitude and Temperance? These four virtues balance and bring all other virtues into action! For love is patient, kind, loving, meek, humble etc. and patience, kindness, humility are the fruits of the virtues infused at Baptism!

 

[Reuben_J]

How many people do you know who actually love everyone as much as they love themselves, or even as much as they love their own children? I’m not talking about platitudes like “I love everyone because they’re all created in the image of God” or “I pray for everyone” or “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” I’m talking about actually loving them: investing as much time, energy, and money toward their betterment as one invests toward one’s own betterment… not just ignoring them.

I don’t know any such people. I don’t think there’s more than a handful of such people in the whole world. Thus, almost the entire human race is in a constant state of violation of Christ’s second commandment. But the Church doesn’t even consider it a sin, especially not a mortal sin.

I think Mother Teresa was one such people. Saints are not unique; we all have the material of a saint. I have known a number of Christians and friends who have the hearts to love as such and can fit into that category. I think I inherently have and understand the need for such love. What I and my friends lack perhaps - we are not that conspicuous enough in our love or that we lack the material resources to project that love in order that it would be seen.

I think the love that we have is proportional to what have been given. This is not to say that we are perfect for to do so would be merely boasting. And yes, I have seen Christians in my own circle who give much for the sake of the Lord and his people. I have a personal brother in the Lord and many more, but the one I refer to, has given up his secular job, he is a lawyer, and serves the Church full time in his own capacity. He is not a deacon or a catechist or thing like that but in his own capacity as we try to serve the Lord in many ways in as much as we can. This thing need planning, we are limited in our resources but we have carry on and are still going.

Love transcends everything. No we do not think Jesus commandment is lesser in importance than the Ten Commandments; they have their own place respectively in our spirituality.

God bless.

 

[tester]

…
But that’s my point: we treat Christ’s commandments as goals to strive for, knowing that we will probably never fulfill them completely, but constantly trying.

True! we will never be sinless:but our relationship with sin will change: there is no pride in sin : we see it as an affront to the Most Holy God.
We strive not to sin out of response to God’s Love; not trying to earn our way into Heaven.

And it’s not a “sin” to fall somewhat short. It’s a reasonable approach. And that’s why I compared it to the OT commandments.

It most definitely is a sin to fall even a little short. Perfection is God’s requirement.
*For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (Jam. 2:10) *

I don’t know much about Judaism, but I remember reading a few years ago that Jews look at them more as instructions, something to strive for, than as commandments. That makes much more sense to me. Sure, there are some, like “Don’t murder” that we can fulfill completely, but others that aren’t so clear-cut. The best we can do is strive to fulfill them, but if we fall a little short, it’s considered a “sin.”

Perfection in deed AND thought!

Matthew 5:Murder
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

The same standard applies with adultery

So Xuan,
Which commandment haven’t you broken in deed OR thought?

IF you could work your way into heaven : why did Jesus go to the Cross:
What was accomplished on the Cross?

 

[fbl9]

True! we will never be sinless:but our relationship with sin will change: there is no pride in sin : we see it as an affront to the Most Holy God.
We strive not to sin out of response to God’s Love; not trying to earn our way into Heaven.

It most definitely is a sin to fall even a little short. Perfection is God’s requirement.
*For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (Jam. 2:10) *

Perfection in deed AND thought!

Matthew 5:Murder
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

The same standard applies with adultery

So Xuan,
Which commandment haven’t you broken in deed OR thought?

IF you could work your way into heaven : why did Jesus go to the Cross:
What was accomplished on the Cross?

Where in the world did you come up with working into heaven?

Ask yourself the same question which of these commandments did you break today?
God knows man alone can not get into heaven. That’s why Christ is a mediator.
When we fail it is through Christ alone that man can be forgiven