Why the inconsistency?

[cooterhein]

I don’t post very often, but I’ve been thinking about this for a long time and I decided to ask the question. I’m posting it here because I’d like non-Catholic opinions too.

Christianity treats the OT commandments like law, not just goals to strive for, but law. If someone violates one of them, it’s a sin, often mortal, and the person is hellbound. It’s pretty much one strike and you’re out.

Well, Christ gave us a couple of commandments too, the second of which is to love your neighbor as yourself. And He made it very clear that your neighbor is everyone.

How many people do you know who actually love everyone as much as they love themselves, or even as much as they love their own children? I’m not talking about platitudes like “I love everyone because they’re all created in the image of God” or “I pray for everyone” or “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” I’m talking about actually loving them: investing as much time, energy, and money toward their betterment as one invests toward one’s own betterment… not just ignoring them.

I’m lucky enought to have parents who do this, there’s a half-dozen or so missionary families I know that exemplify it very well, and I can think of three older women in the church I grew up in (one is dying right now) and a couple of the older men (one of them died a few years ago). Aside from my parents and a few of the msisionaries, there’s one family at the church I’m currently attending that’s pretty exceptional in this way, and there’s about a half-dozen people around my own age that I had the pleasure of getting to know very well through regular small-group discipleship over the course of two years. Four of them are in India planting churches. Two of them really gave up a lot in order to serve God like that. And there’s another two people a little younger than me, but I didn’t get to know them quite as well.

I don’t know any such people. I don’t think there’s more than a handful of such people in the whole world. Thus, almost the entire human race is in a constant state of violation of Christ’s second commandment. But the Church doesn’t even consider it a sin, especially not a mortal sin.
Instead the Church seems to consider the commandment simply as a goal… something to strive for. Christ didn’t say it was just something to strive for; He said it was a commandment.

So, apparently, we have “commandments” and we have “commandments.” Why aren’t Christ’s commandments treated like “real” commandments Why the inconsistency? I have my own opinion, but I’d like to hear others’ first.

I’m sorry that you don’t know any such people. I’m sure there’s quite a few of them on these forums. As to a response, though, mine comes from a non-Catholic perspective that has pretty heavy Calvinist leanings.

The 10 Commandments are the kinds of things that can, to a certain extent and at least for a period of time, be kept. That is, people- apart from divine assistance- can sort of keep them, however imperfectly. Anyone can do it. I mean, no one can keep them perfectly, we all know that. But anyone can pick out any one of them and succeed in keeping it for at least a short period of time, and most people (without divine intervention or assistance) can keep most of the commandments most of the time.

I think Jesus’ commandments are fundamentally different, and the doctrine of total depravity/total inability comes into play here. This is not to say that every man is as bad as he can be- after all, I did just tell you about how most people can keep most of the commandments most of the time. But I am saying there’s certain things that people are incapable of doing unless and until God (more specifically, the Holy Spirit) indwells you and, among other things, transforms you into the kind of person who, with God’s assistance, can keep the aformentioned commandments of Jesus.

Unless and until this happens, no one is born with the capacity to keep them at all- not even for a few minutes. In order to do it, you require the indwelling presence of God within you (which is obtained by grace) and His constant assistance (which is also offered by grace).

Everyone who attends church is capable of keeping the 10 commandments to a certain extent, however lame that extent may be. But the only people who are capable of keeping Jesus’ love-related commandments are the ones who are indwelt by God and constantly being enabled by Him to do these things.

This is true of so few people that it’s not really worth it for church leadership to create a set of rules that enforce it in some way, especially not when so many people in the church are incapable of doing it.

I think that might be why you see what you see.

 

[tester]

Where in the world did you come up with working into heaven?

I saw it implied in this quote which was included in my posting.

Christ’s commandments as goals to strive for, knowing that we will probably never fulfill them completely, but constantly trying. And it’s not a “sin” to fall somewhat short. It’s a reasonable approach.

“goals to strive for” as in “goals to work for”

you fall short but you were constantly trying so you get an “A” for effort:

Do you think it meant something different?

Ask yourself the same question which of these commandments did you break today?
God knows man alone can not get into heaven. That’s why Christ is a mediator.
When we fail it is through Christ alone that man can be forgiven

There is no doubt I am a sinner ;
but I am saved by Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.

 

[Xuan]

I’m lucky enought to have parents who do this, there’s a half-dozen or so missionary families I know that exemplify it very well, and I can think of three older women in the church I grew up in (one is dying right now) and a couple of the older men (one of them died a few years ago). Aside from my parents and a few of the msisionaries, there’s one family at the church I’m currently attending that’s pretty exceptional in this way, and there’s about a half-dozen people around my own age that I had the pleasure of getting to know very well through regular small-group discipleship over the course of two years. Four of them are in India planting churches. Two of them really gave up a lot in order to serve God like that. And there’s another two people a little younger than me, but I didn’t get to know them quite as well.

I’m sorry that you don’t know any such people. I’m sure there’s quite a few of them on these forums. As to a response, though, mine comes from a non-Catholic perspective that has pretty heavy Calvinist leanings.

The 10 Commandments are the kinds of things that can, to a certain extent and at least for a period of time, be kept. That is, people- apart from divine assistance- can sort of keep them, however imperfectly. Anyone can do it. I mean, no one can keep them perfectly, we all know that. But anyone can pick out any one of them and succeed in keeping it for at least a short period of time, and most people (without divine intervention or assistance) can keep most of the commandments most of the time.

I think Jesus’ commandments are fundamentally different, and the doctrine of total depravity/total inability comes into play here. This is not to say that every man is as bad as he can be- after all, I did just tell you about how most people can keep most of the commandments most of the time. But I am saying there’s certain things that people are incapable of doing unless and until God (more specifically, the Holy Spirit) indwells you and, among other things, transforms you into the kind of person who, with God’s assistance, can keep the aformentioned commandments of Jesus.

Unless and until this happens, no one is born with the capacity to keep them at all- not even for a few minutes. In order to do it, you require the indwelling presence of God within you (which is obtained by grace) and His constant assistance (which is also offered by grace).

Everyone who attends church is capable of keeping the 10 commandments to a certain extent, however lame that extent may be. But the only people who are capable of keeping Jesus’ love-related commandments are the ones who are indwelt by God and constantly being enabled by Him to do these things.

This is true of so few people that it’s not really worth it for church leadership to create a set of rules that enforce it in some way, especially not when so many people in the church are incapable of doing it.

I think that might be why you see what you see.

Hi cooterhein,
Thank you for your post. Sure, I know people who are very loving and generous. I just meant that I don’t know any who fully love others as much as they love themselves… completely fulfilling Christ’s commandment.

The latter part of your post is really food for thought… the part about being unable to love people and treat people in such a way without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I ask God every night to help me be a better, more loving person, and I think it really helps. I still have a long way to go, though.

 

[JackVk]

Hi,
Peter Kreeft said in his book The God Who Loves You that Jesus never said to love all of humanity in its entirety, just the people whom you meet in life. Mother Teresa said, “if you can’t feed a hundred people, then just feed one”. Considering that there are 6.5 billion people on earth, it is pretty much impossible to love literally everybody. So just love those who you cross paths with in life.

 

[fbl9]

I saw it implied in this quote which was included in my posting.

“goals to strive for” as in “goals to work for”

you fall short but you were constantly trying so you get an “A” for effort:

Do you think it meant something different?

There is no doubt I am a sinner ;
but I am saved by Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.

You describe yourself as a sinner. How can you be a sinner if in fact you are saved?

 

[tester]

You describe yourself as a sinner. How can you be a sinner if in fact you are saved?

Defining “sinner” has one who has sinned:

If I lied last week: am I a liar?
If I stole 20 years ago ; am I a thief?
If I murdered 30 years ago : am I a murderer?

I have broken every commandment in deed or thought (see Matthew 5)
Isn’t that sin?
To claim otherwise would make God out to be a liar.

1 John 1
8** If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us**. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 **If we claim we have not sinned, we make him [God] out to be a liar and his word is not in us. **

I’m sure you agree with the above verse.

(This relates to the OP as all of us has actully broken all of the commandments in one way or another)

Romans 7
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[Miriam1947]

Defining “sinner” has one who has sinned:

If I lied last week: am I a liar?
If I stole 20 years ago ; am I a thief?
If I murdered 30 years ago : am I a murderer?

I have broken every commandment in deed or thought (see Matthew 5)
Isn’t that sin?
To claim otherwise would make God out to be a liar.

1 John 1
8** If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth** is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 **If we claim we have not sinned, we make him [God] out to be a liar and his word is not in us. **

I’m sure you agree with the above verse.

(This relates to the OP as all of us has actully broken all of the commandments in one way or another)

Romans 7
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Does this mean that you are guaranteed Heaven because you have been saved even though you consider yourself a sinner? Were you baptized or did you recite the sinners prayer?

OSAS?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I don’t post very often, but I’ve been thinking about this for a long time and I decided to ask the question. I’m posting it here because I’d like non-Catholic opinions too.

Christianity treats the OT commandments like law, not just goals to strive for, but law. If someone violates one of them, it’s a sin, often mortal, and the person is hellbound. It’s pretty much one strike and you’re out.

Well, Christ gave us a couple of commandments too, the second of which is to love your neighbor as yourself. And He made it very clear that your neighbor is everyone.

How many people do you know who actually love everyone as much as they love themselves, or even as much as they love their own children? I’m not talking about platitudes like “I love everyone because they’re all created in the image of God” or “I pray for everyone” or “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” I’m talking about actually loving them: investing as much time, energy, and money toward their betterment as one invests toward one’s own betterment… not just ignoring them.

I don’t know any such people. I don’t think there’s more than a handful of such people in the whole world. Thus, almost the entire human race is in a constant state of violation of Christ’s second commandment. But the Church doesn’t even consider it a sin, especially not a mortal sin.
Instead the Church seems to consider the commandment simply as a goal… something to strive for. Christ didn’t say it was just something to strive for; He said it was a commandment.

So, apparently, we have “commandments” and we have “commandments.” Why aren’t Christ’s commandments treated like “real” commandments Why the inconsistency? I have my own opinion, but I’d like to hear others’ first.

When Christ healed the ten lepers, He demonstrated divine love. However He didn’t then go around checking on their every move, making sure they had good jobs, was the boss treating them right, did they now have good marital prospects, making sure they got the education they deserved, did they have a healthy bank balance and if not, how could they achieve it; checking on their new workplace health and safety standards…

By and large He then left them up to their own devices. He left them free to make their own decisions. And of the ten lepers, only one used his freedom to go back and thank him. I suppose in one way I don’t blame the other nine - they had years of living to catch up on. They’d only been healed after all - they were still dog-poor, the woman they’d wanted to marry years ago had probably married someone else, they had to convince their families they were healed, they probably didn’t have homes to go to. They were a long way behind the eight ball.

You are expected to look after yourself - so are most other people.

Christians do a great deal to help others, but it is often done in an institutional sense - charities, education, health care, advocating social justice.

Of course we all fall short of the mark. But there are two sides to the coin - love and judgement, and to quote an old pastor I knew, “It’s very hard to get the balance right.” Thus we may be instructed to love an AIDS sufferer. But we’re not instructed to overlook the fact it may well have been his own behaviour that resulted in having AIDS. If he’d listened to the warnnings, he probably wouldn’t have AIDS. The same goes for drug addicts, alcoholics, prison inmates, adulterers going through a divorce and so on.

If they’d listened to the Commandments, they may not have been where they were. But we are instructed to help them regardless. Yet that doesn’t mean we have to be starry eyed about it.

 

[tester]

Does this mean that you are guaranteed Heaven because you have been saved even though you consider yourself a sinner? Were you baptized or did you recite the sinners prayer?

OSAS?

OSAS is off topic:

but please clarify: are you implying that you are not a sinner?

Defining “sinner” has one who has sinned:

If I lied last week: am I a liar?
If I stole 20 years ago ; am I a thief?
If I murdered 30 years ago : am I a murderer?

 

[Xuan]

I saw it implied in this quote which was included in my posting.

“goals to strive for” as in “goals to work for”

you fall short but you were constantly trying so you get an “A” for effort:

Hi tester,
Thank you for your responses. Just to clarify, the “goals to work for” that I was referring to are to lead a completely virtuous, moral life. When I wrote it I wasn’t thinking of an afterlife.

 

[elvisman]

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. (Romans 3:20)

**No one will be saved by trying to keep the Ten Commandments! The purpose of the commandments is to reveal sin. **

in action and thought!!

Matthew 5:
Murder
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Adultery
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law!’" (Gal. 3:10)

“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” (Jam. 2:10)

WOW!!!
who can keep those standards?

how can anyone be “good enough” in action and thought to get into heaven?

God condemns all as sinners. There is no one righteous, not even one. All have turned away. There is no one who does good, not even one. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God!" (Rom. 3:19,10,12,22,23)…

Maybe if i tried harder to be better of a person , or put more money in a collection plate , or served in a soup kitchen , or…

Jesus disagrees with you:

Matt. 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

John 15:10
“You will remain in my love IF you keep my commandments***, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”***

The Holy Spirit – who inspired Paul’s writings - ALSO disagrees with you:
Col. 1:10
“And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God.”

Titus 3:8
“This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.”

The only place in all of scripture where the words “faith alone” are found is in James 2:24 where it says we are not saved by faith alone. Simply believing is not enough. We must be obedient and do what the Lord wills. In the St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans (Rom. 1:5, 16:26), he speaks of the “obedience of faith” and “faith working through love” (Gal. 5:6). He also says that says that love is greater than faith or hope (1 Cor. 13:13). It is the greatest of all virtues - and love is DOING.
James 2:14-26 speaks of the necessity of works and that “faith without works is dead.”

In Matt. 31-46, Jesus said that the reward of his faithful ones were rewarded with eternal joy in heaven. Those who didn‘t were banished to eternal suffering.

Finally** – when Paul speaks of works being useless – he is usually talking about works of the Law (Mosaic Law) – NOT works done for and through Christ. Your problem is that you take the Scriptures out of context, cherry-picking only that which you agree upon.

 

[elvisman]

There is no doubt I am a sinner ;
but I am saved by Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.

That’s great.
Can you show me where the Bible says that - because I can’t find it anywhere.
**Please provide the verse(s). **

---

And, I wouldn’t be so cocky about my “guaranteed” salvation if I were you.
MY** Bible says that you’re not fully saved until you die:**
Matt. 24:13
"He who endures to the end will be saved"
Mark 13:13
“You will be hated by all for my name’s sake, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.”

---

It also says that your salvation can be lost:
Romans 11:22****
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

---

Hebrews 10:26-27****
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

---

2 Peter 2:20-22****
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

---

Finally – your name CAN be erased from the Book of Life:
Rev. 3:5
“The victor will be dressed in white and I will never erase his name from the book of life; instead, I will acknowledge it before my Father and his angels.”
God can’t erase what wasn’t there in the first place – right?

 

[Xuan]

Hi,
Peter Kreeft said in his book The God Who Loves You that Jesus never said to love all of humanity in its entirety, just the people whom you meet in life. Mother Teresa said, “if you can’t feed a hundred people, then just feed one”. Considering that there are 6.5 billion people on earth, it is pretty much impossible to love literally everybody. So just love those who you cross paths with in life.

Hi JackVK,
Thank you for your response. I agree with you. If we took Christ’s command as a literal “law,” there’s no way we could keep it. So we look at it as a “goal,” something to strive for. I think that’s what Christ had in mind. Of course we all fall short of the goal, to greater or lesser degrees, but falling short a little isn’t considered a “sin.” It just means we need to keep trying. OTOH, a very callous, very blatant violation would be considered a “sin.”

I’m submitting that maybe the OT commandments should be taken that way too. Then we’d have a more consistent point of view.

 

[fbl9]

Hi JackVK,
Thank you for your response. I agree with you. If we took Christ’s command as a literal “law,” there’s no way we could keep it. So we look at it as a “goal,” something to strive for. I think that’s what Christ had in mind. Of course we all fall short of the goal, to greater or lesser degrees, but falling short a little isn’t considered a “sin.” It just means we need to keep trying. OTOH, a very callous, very blatant violation would be considered a “sin.”

I’m submitting that maybe the OT commandments should be taken that way too. Then we’d have a more consistent point of view.

so in obeying the ten commandments one is obeying Christ’s commandment to love thy neighbour.

 

[Xuan]

so in obeying the ten commandments one is obeying Christ’s commandment to love thy neighbour.

Hi fbl9,
Thank you for your response. I can’t say I agree with it, though. But I think the reverse might be true. Christ’s commandments are much more-encompassing than the OT commandments; they’re based on the element of love, which is missing in the OT commandments. Christ said “All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments.” They’re the total foundation from which all other commandments come.

Maybe we can look at the OT commandments in retrospect and say that love was implied in them when they talk about not hurting others. But the whole idea of loving and helping others is missing from them.

 

[tester]

…Of course we all fall short of the goal, to greater or lesser degrees, but falling short a little isn’t considered a “sin.” It just means we need to keep trying. OTOH, a very callous, very blatant violation would be considered a “sin.”

.

Friend; I cannot emphasize enough how wrong that view is:

It doesn’t matter what I say, (or anyone else on this message boards)
So, please test all things.

 

[Xuan]

Friend; I cannot emphasize enough how wrong that view is:

It doesn’t matter what I say, (or anyone else on this message boards)
So, please test all things.

Hi tester,
I genuinely appreciate your concern. I’m searching.

 

[elvisman]

Friend; I cannot emphasize enough how wrong that view is:

It doesn’t matter what I say, (or anyone else on this message boards)
So, please test all things.

Am I to assume that you are going to continue to ignore posts #31 & 32?

 

[tester]

Am I to assume that you are going to continue to ignore posts #31 & 32?

i can copy and past pro-OSAS verses also, but that is not what this thread is about.
I wasn’t going to hijack this thread and my font colors won’t be cool as yours.

but lets just say there was a lot of out of context, cherry picking on your posts.

 

[fbl9]

Hi fbl9,
Thank you for your response. I can’t say I agree with it, though. But I think the reverse might be true. Christ’s commandments are much more-encompassing than the OT commandments; they’re based on the element of love, which is missing in the OT commandments. Christ said “All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments.” They’re the total foundation from which all other commandments come.

Maybe we can look at the OT commandments in retrospect and say that love was implied in them when they talk about not hurting others. But the whole idea of loving and helping others is missing from them.

Try reading Leviticus chp. 19 and find where there is no love, for one’s neighbour?
What do you think Christ meant by including the prophets in this?