Why the insistence on linking abortion with the Holocaust?

[njlisa]

Not to go off topic, but the Nazi Holocaust was not the only hideous act of genocide to be committed in the 20th century. Many people forget the Armenian Genocide.

armenian-genocide.org/

In any case, whether we call abortion mass slaughter or holocaust, it all adds up to the same thing – the death of innocents.

 

[april32010]

blackgenocide.org/black.html

Minority women constitute only about 13% of the female population (age 15-44) in the United States, but they underwent approximately 36% of the abortions.

According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, black women are more than 5 times as likely as white women to have an abortion

On average, 1,876 black babies are aborted every day in the United States.

This incidence of abortion has resulted in a tremendous loss of life. It has been estimated that since 1973 Black women have had about 16 million abortions. Michael Novak had calculated “Since the number of current living Blacks (in the U.S.) is 36 million, the missing 16 million represents an enormous loss, for without abortion, America’s Black community would now number 52 million persons. It would be 36 percent larger than it is. Abortion has swept through the Black community like a scythe, cutting down every fourth member.”

 

[april32010]

One can only wonder how supposedly educated people like Dr. Mengele, who was both a physician and an anthropologist, can become so cruel and twisted. .

why would ones education have anything to with their morality,education isn’t a virtue .

 

[meltzerboy]

why would ones education have anything to with their morality,education isn’t a virtue .

Certainly education does not ensure morality. However, ignorance is often linked to fear and intolerance as well.

 

[njlisa]

blackgenocide.org/black.html

Unbelievably tragic. :bighanky:

 

[josh987654321]

The term “Holocaust” literally refers to a sacrificial death by fire. And according to scholars and survivors like Elie Wiesel, there is only one Holocaust – it’s written with a capital “H” to indicate that it’s a proper noun and it refers to Nazi Germany’s genocide. Why, then, do people like Pat Robertson find it necessary to compare it to abortion? The claim that abortion is a genocide is different – it may or may not be. But it most definitely is not the Holocaust. This comparison strikes me as doing a disservice to the Holocaust’s victims as well as the millions murdered through abortion. Abortion is hideous enough that it need not be compared to another tragedy. And Robertson’s claim that abortion is “worse” than what happened in Nazi Germany is sick. They’re both immoral affronts to God – giving one atrocity a gold medal while giving another a silver, as though they’re competing in some sort of bizarre Olympics of Suffering, is really shameful.

“Robertson: US Abortion ‘Holocaust’ Worse than Nazi Germany, Will Lead to ‘Wrath of the Lord’”
rightwingwatch.org/content/robertson-us-abortion-holocaust-worse-nazi-germany-will-lead-wrath-lord

No.

Abortion IS the greatest genocide in the history of mankind, what makes me sick, is the fact that it is still legal all around the world and efforts are being made to continue embracing such evil.

“And Robertson’s claim that abortion is “worse” than what happened in Nazi Germany is sick.”

No.

What makes me sick is the fact that abortion is infact worse and is still legal.

Martin Luther King –
Remember everything Hitler did was legal.

Abortion has claimed more lives than the Nazi’s ever did and It is targeted at the defenseless and innocent, at the ones who are slaughtered at the whim or decision of their own mothers, their own parents who are supposed to care and nurture for them and as others have pointed out, they are both based on the same Eugenics principal.

Mark, I think the connection you’re making is one of *genocide *and abortion. **The Holocaust was the culmination of centuries’ worth of hatred and oppression launched at one group of people **-- and this hatred was based on many factors over time. Eugenics was certainly a major portion of this hatred as expressed in Nazi Germany, but it was not the sum total of it. Belief that the Jews had caused Germany’s loss in WWI, that Jews were Christ-killers, that because of the diaspora Jews were a nomadic plague upon Europe – these all existed, as well. The Jews have been the most hated and vilified group throughout recorded history, which is what makes their intended destruction via the Holocaust so unique. Your discussion of eugenics seems better matched with genocide.

You make an excellent point, so why is this different in the case of Abortion?

Because they do not have a voice or any means what so ever to defend themselves, they are at the complete mercy of their mothers, quite simply, because there is no resistance.

Will it only end when an unborn can testify to the crulty they experience at the hands of their own mother? There will be no shortage of those testifying to the crulty they recieved through abortion come judgement day thats for sure.

What I believe makes it worse than the holocaust is -

1. The level of betrayal, rejected and slaughtered at the hands of their own mothers.
2. The number.
3. It’s targeted at those who have no means what so ever in which to defend themselves or raise any objections, as they are completely unaware to what is going to happen to them.
4. The fact that it is still legal and has been for such a long time.
5. Something that is the greatest gift (life) and celebrated, is seen as an unwanted side effect to sex, seen as some kind of tumor that is removed by the mother herself.

Pope Francis said, the woman does not carry a toothbrush or tumor in her womb, science teaches us that at the moment of conception, the new being has all the gentic code, it’s therefore not a religious issue, but clearly a moral one based on science.

Abortion is what makes me sick to my core, certainly not someone pointing out such atrocity, because it is worse than the holocaust and yet nothing has been done, your perception is the only thing standing in the way of seeing the severity of abortion gracepool, probably because there are no “mass graves” in which they are buried in and probably because what is “disposed” of is hardly recognisable.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[gracepoole]

No.

Abortion IS the greatest genocide in the history of mankind, what makes me sick, is the fact that it is still legal all around the world and efforts are being made to continue embracing such evil.

“And Robertson’s claim that abortion is “worse” than what happened in Nazi Germany is sick.”

No.

What makes me sick is the fact that abortion is infact worse and is still legal.

Martin Luther King –
Remember everything Hitler did was legal.

Abortion has claimed more lives than the Nazi’s ever did and It is targeted at the defenseless and innocent, at the ones who are slaughtered at the whim or decision of their own mothers, their own parents who are supposed to care and nurture for them and as others have pointed out, they are both based on the same Eugenics principal.

You make an excellent point, so why is this different in the case of Abortion?

Because they do not have a voice or any means what so ever to defend themselves, they are at the complete mercy of their mothers, quite simply, because there is no resistance.

Will it only end when an unborn can testify to the crulty they experience at the hands of their own mother? There will be no shortage of those testifying to the crulty they recieved through abortion come judgement day thats for sure.

What I believe makes it worse than the holocaust is -

1. The level of betrayal, rejected and slaughtered at the hands of their own mothers.
2. The number.
3. It’s targeted at those who have no means what so ever in which to defend themselves or raise any objections, as they are completely unaware to what is going to happen to them.
4. The fact that it is still legal and has been for such a long time.
5. Something that is the greatest gift (life) and celebrated, is seen as an unwanted side effect to sex, seen as some kind of tumor that is removed by the mother herself.

Pope Francis said, the woman does not carry a toothbrush or tumor in her womb, science teaches us that at the moment of conception, the new being has all the gentic code, it’s therefore not a religious issue, but clearly a moral one based on science.

Abortion is what makes me sick to my core, certainly not someone pointing out such atrocity, because it is worse than the holocaust and yet nothing has been done, your perception is the only thing standing in the way of seeing the severity of abortion gracepool, probably because there are no “mass graves” in which they are buried in and probably because what is “disposed” of is hardly recognisable.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

Josh, I can only be thankful that God needn’t rank atrocities in order to condemn them all. We (you and I) have an impasse here – I find it unproductive and (sorry to be frank) reprehensible to compare these tragedies. Let’s just leave it at that.

 

[gracepoole]

Actually since genocide is defined as the killing of large groups of people from a particular ethnic group or nation it applies quite well to what happened to the Jews in WWII and not so much to abortion which happens across the globe.

holocaust which refers to killing on a mass scale is applicable to abortion IMO.

Holocaust **does not ** simply refer to killing on a mass scale. That’s genocide. See the definition of “holocaust” that I provided earlier.

 

[gracepoole]

No, I am specifically talking about the Shoah.

Hitler wanted to purify the.“Aryan” races by getting rid of all Jews in, first, Europe, then the world. Unlike other anti-Semitic persecutions in the past, converting to another religion did not save the Jew in question. He was still doomed. Any amount of Jewish blood in a person’s blood put him/her at risk.

It was a eugenic program.

It *was *a eugenic program, but it was not *simply *a eugenic program. Moreover, no one has claimed that the Holocaust wasn’t a genocide – but it’s a specific genocide, one that targeted Jews primarily (or, if one ascribes to Yad Vashem’s definition of it, Jews only). Why not come up with a unique title for the abortion industry? What does it add to the discussion of abortion to compare it with the Holocaust?

Finally, if the Church has moved away from using the word “holocaust” when not describing the events of WWII, why should anyone continue to do so?

 

[fallow_spirit]

It’s cause the abortion epidemic is basically a mass genocide and the holocaust is the genocide that people are most familiar with, so it’s easier for people to relate. These people do break Godwin’s Law though.

 

[markomalley]

It *was *a eugenic program, but it was not *simply *a eugenic program. Moreover, no one has claimed that the Holocaust wasn’t a genocide – but it’s a specific genocide, one that targeted Jews primarily (or, if one ascribes to Yad Vashem’s definition of it, Jews only). Why not come up with a unique title for the abortion industry? What does it add to the discussion of abortion to compare it with the Holocaust?

Finally, if the Church has moved away from using the word “holocaust” when not describing the events of WWII, why should anyone continue to do so?

There is generally, and rightfully so, a disgust and horror about the Shoah (I use the teem to distinguish it from other genocides in history). Yet fewer than 10 million were killed in that. Yet how many more in this country have been killed by abortion? But there is no general revulsion in our society. Even ignoring the eugenic connection, that is something that confuses me.

 

[Tarpeian]

No.

Abortion IS the greatest genocide in the history of mankind, what makes me sick, is the fact that it is still legal all around the world and efforts are being made to continue embracing such evil.

“And Robertson’s claim that abortion is “worse” than what happened in Nazi Germany is sick.”

No.

What makes me sick is the fact that abortion is infact worse and is still legal.

Martin Luther King –
Remember everything Hitler did was legal.

Abortion has claimed more lives than the Nazi’s ever did and It is targeted at the defenseless and innocent, at the ones who are slaughtered at the whim or decision of their own mothers, their own parents who are supposed to care and nurture for them and as others have pointed out, they are both based on the same Eugenics principal.

You make an excellent point, so why is this different in the case of Abortion?

Because they do not have a voice or any means what so ever to defend themselves, they are at the complete mercy of their mothers, quite simply, because there is no resistance.

Will it only end when an unborn can testify to the crulty they experience at the hands of their own mother? There will be no shortage of those testifying to the crulty they recieved through abortion come judgement day thats for sure.

What I believe makes it worse than the holocaust is -

1. The level of betrayal, rejected and slaughtered at the hands of their own mothers.
2. The number.
3. It’s targeted at those who have no means what so ever in which to defend themselves or raise any objections, as they are completely unaware to what is going to happen to them.
4. The fact that it is still legal and has been for such a long time.
5. Something that is the greatest gift (life) and celebrated, is seen as an unwanted side effect to sex, seen as some kind of tumor that is removed by the mother herself.

Pope Francis said, the woman does not carry a toothbrush or tumor in her womb, science teaches us that at the moment of conception, the new being has all the gentic code, it’s therefore not a religious issue, but clearly a moral one based on science.

Abortion is what makes me sick to my core, certainly not someone pointing out such atrocity, because it is worse than the holocaust and yet nothing has been done, your perception is the only thing standing in the way of seeing the severity of abortion gracepool, probably because there are no “mass graves” in which they are buried in and probably because what is “disposed” of is hardly recognisable.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

Excellent Post!

Pax,
Tarpeian

 

[Julian_Bashir]

The term “Holocaust” literally refers to a sacrificial death by fire. And according to scholars and survivors like Elie Wiesel, there is only one Holocaust – it’s written with a capital “H” to indicate that it’s a proper noun and it refers to Nazi Germany’s genocide. Why, then, do people like Pat Robertson find it necessary to compare it to abortion? The claim that abortion is a genocide is different – it may or may not be. But it most definitely is not the Holocaust. This comparison strikes me as doing a disservice to the Holocaust’s victims as well as the millions murdered through abortion. Abortion is hideous enough that it need not be compared to another tragedy. And Robertson’s claim that abortion is “worse” than what happened in Nazi Germany is sick. They’re both immoral affronts to God – giving one atrocity a gold medal while giving another a silver, as though they’re competing in some sort of bizarre Olympics of Suffering, is really shameful.

“Robertson: US Abortion ‘Holocaust’ Worse than Nazi Germany, Will Lead to ‘Wrath of the Lord’”
rightwingwatch.org/content/robertson-us-abortion-holocaust-worse-nazi-germany-will-lead-wrath-lord

Most people react with revulsion at the barbarism that is the Holocaust. Many people believe murdering a child in the womb is a right.

Given the gravity of abortion surpasses the magnitude of the Holocaust in terms of sheer numbers, I’d say it not only makes sense in terms of comparability, but it highlights the egregious nature that many people don’t seem to get. How it does a disservice to either is beyond me.

 

[Julian_Bashir]

Thanks for the information. One can only wonder how supposedly educated people like Dr. Mengele, who was both a physician and an anthropologist, can become so cruel and twisted. Unfortunately, Ilse Koch, nicknamed the “red witch of Buchenwald,” was Josef Mengele’s match, even more sadistic than her husband according to reports.

One asks the same questions of “men” like George Tiller, Leroy Carhart, and Kermit Gosnell.

 

[Julian_Bashir]

Holocaust **does not ** simply refer to killing on a mass scale. That’s genocide. See the definition of “holocaust” that I provided earlier.

So you are bothered by semantics?

Does the term “Hail Mary pass” in football irk you?

How about a “Pearl Harbor job” when someone is attacked without foreknowledge?

What is more insidious about abortion is that there is a maternal connection at play that is lacking in any other form of genocide. The killers are the babies mothers. As horrible as any genocide is, the killers are detached from the victims. This isn’t so in abortion. One of the most powerful instincts and connection in human history is the maternal instinct, and it gets set aside to allow for the mother to exterminate her child. Unbelievably evil, demonic, and dark. It is the ultimate sign of Satan’s grip on humanity.

 

[Tarpeian]

I don’t see anything intrinsically wrong with comparing abortion to the holocaust. I think some use the terms interchangeably, given the ignorance of history in our day, most still have some idea of who Hitler was, and he had six million Jews murdered! Although most DO NOT know five million Gentiles, including at least three million Catholics were killed. Auschwitz killed Catholics for 26 consecutive months before the first Jews were shipped there. Some demographers point out that on a per capita basis, the Gypsies were killed at a greater rate than the Jews. Jehovah’s Witnesses and homosexuals were also marked for destruction. The Holocaust was modelled on the equally heinous destruction of Armenian Christians by secular and Muslim Turks twenty years earlier, a genocide which had been essentially ignored in Europe and the United States.

In fact there are similarities. Steve Kellmeyer did a piece a few years ago demonstrating this point. From the American Conservative.

Myth #1: The Holocaust was an expression of religious intolerance.

Fact: The Holocaust expressed the science of the day. The Franco-Prussian war, an exercise in social Darwinism, led directly to World War I which led directly to World War II. During this seventy-year period, intellectuals commonly spoke of the “French race,” “German race” or “British race”: nationality equaled genetics and genetics was about the “survival of the fittest.” Germany led the world in science and technology. Eugenics, how to maintain a pure race, was cutting-edge science. Scientific journals devoted to eugenics were common throughout Europe and the U.S. In Germany, circumcision was not a crime — being of “Jewish race” was. Hitler himself insisted that Jews were “definitely a race and not a religious community.” Hitler was following the science of the day when he set up the death camps.

Myth #2: Hitler’s anti-Semitism was unique.

Fact: Every one of the great ideologies of Hitler’s time, liberal, socialist, conservative, or Nazi, was anti-Semitic. Hitler consciously modeled his destructive work on United States law. The Nuremburg laws which forbad Jews and Gentiles from marrying imitated Virginia law which forbad blacks marrying whites. Indeed, the Nuremburg laws were even formulated with the help of a Harvard law graduate. Similarly, the German mass sterilization of mental and physical defectives, Jews, and other “inferiors” modeled itself on U.S. state sterilization programs, upheld by the Supreme Court’s Buck vs. Bell (1927). Abortion, which had been illegal in Germany since 1870, was legalized, but only for defectives and inferior races. Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, admired the Nuremburg laws for their improvement on U.S. law. Hitler simply followed U.S. practice and put scientific theory to work.

Continued:

Pax,
Tarpeian

 

[gracepoole]

How it does a disservice to either is beyond me.

Comparing and ranking Darfur and Rwanda, or Rwanda and Bosnia, or abortion and Cambodia, or Armenia and the Holocaust, or any two atrocities does a disservice to both things being compared because both deserve to be remembered uniquely. Conflating the deaths of those who died in the Holocaust with those who died via abortion is unnecessary and does not permit the victims of each tragedy to be remembered uniquely. Speaking of the Holocaust’s victims, specifically, they deserve not to be used to make a point about another evil act.

 

[Tarpeian]

Myth #3: The Holocaust was illegal.

Fact: The Holocaust did not violate either German national law or international law. The British invented the concentration camp during the Boer War, the Germans simply adopted it. German courts carefully stripped victims of all legal rights prior to the Final Solution. By 1941, when the death camp system began operation, the Jews had no rights. The Reich could legally treat them as it wished. Everyone recognized this. Indeed, a major Allied argument against conducting the Nuremburg trials was precisely the fact that these trials attempted to enforce non-existent law.

Myth #4: The Holocaust killed Jews almost exclusively.

Fact: While Jews were certainly foremost among the victims, and six million died in the various camps, so did five million Gentiles, including at least three million Catholics. Auschwitz killed Catholics for 26 consecutive months before the first Jews were shipped there. Some demographers point out that on a per capita basis, the Gypsies were killed at a greater rate than the Jews. Jehovah’s Witnesses and homosexuals were also marked for destruction. The Holocaust was modelled on the equally heinous destruction of Armenian Christians by secular and Muslim Turks twenty years earlier, a genocide which had been essentially ignored in Europe and the United States.

Myth #5: No important scientific experiments were really attempted.

Fact: Many of the death camp experiments were run by respected German scientists researching major health threats of the day, such as typhus and hypothermia. Much of the data was either captured and utilized by the Allies or was quietly published in German medical journals in the post-war years, sometimes by the very doctors who had assisted in the prison camp experiments. In fact, the saline abortion procedure used in the U.S. through the early 1980’s was developed in the Nazi death camps for use on Jews, Slavs, and Poles. U.S. doctors simply lifted it from the Nazis.

So, how accurate is the legal abortion-Holocaust comparison? The Holocaust grew out of scientific work and legal precedent begun in England and the U.S. Legal abortion expresses today’s economic and psychological sciences, which assume economic and psychological harm to women will be reduced if their children are killed. The rhetoric used by the advocates of legal abortion against the child in the womb (“a disease,” “bacilli” “parasites”) repeats the Nazi rhetoric against the Jews. Both German and U.S. courts stripped their victims of all rights prior to destroying them. In both cases, medical experimentation on living and dead victims grew in parallel with the expansion of the programs. In both cases, researchers support their work with the same rationales. Other parallels could be brought forward if space permitted.

An objective study of the Holocaust and legal abortion demonstrates striking similarities. However, there are differences. For instance, the Nazis felt they had to hide the death camps to avoid general outrage; nearly all such camps were in Poland or Byelorussia, not Germany. In contrast, Americans debate but largely accept abortion clinics in our midst. In terms of pure body count, Hitler did not match Stalin, Stalin did not match Mao Tse Tung, and Mao has nothing on the U.S. Supreme Court. The differences are not all to our benefit.

God condemns all sin, but it has always been the constant teaching of The Church that God’s justice demands that pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit. This holds true not only of the pain of sense, but also of the pain of loss. A more intense hatred of God, a more vivid consciousness of utter abandonment by Divine goodness. Dante’s Inferno although a work of fiction, gives a vivid account of how sin and hell might may play out, not to mention some of the Saint’s visions.

Pax,
Tarpeian

 

[gracepoole]

I don’t see anything intrinsically wrong with comparing abortion to the holocaust. I think some use the terms interchangeably, given the ignorance of history in our day, most still have some idea of who Hitler was, and he had six million Jews murdered! Although most DO NOT know five million Gentiles, including at least three million Catholics were killed.

Where does this figure come from? Here are the USHMM’s figures: ushmm.org/research/library/faq/details.php?topic=03#03

 

[gracepoole]

So you are bothered by semantics?

Does the term “Hail Mary pass” in football irk you?

How about a “Pearl Harbor job” when someone is attacked without foreknowledge?

Huh?

We’re not talking about semantics here. Cider commented as follows: “holocaust which refers to killing on a mass scale is applicable to abortion IMO.” The Holocaust was a specific genocide and does not refer to any instance of “killing on a mass scale.”