Why the Islamic Hadiths are not too reliable

[Sister_Amy]

for the same reason they were translated into Greek…there were Arab Jews.

of course, when Muhammad used to listen to Jews reading their scriptures infront of him, did they read it in Hebrew? did the Jews speak to Muhammad in Hebrew?

You have no proof that Muhammad used to listen to the Jews reading their scripture. Do you just make stuff up as you go along?

yes Waraqa was no pagan. Do you believe she was pagan?

I’m going to abstain from answering because I don’t know of any proof supporting either conclusion. You should do the same.

who gave him the authority?What authority?

 

[Sister_Amy]

proof?

Proof about witnesses to the angel Gabriel. It is called the Hadith Jibreel. Look it up. It has been reported by 7 different companions, all with authentic chains.

As to your reply “so” (about Waraqa translating), it is a proof Muhammad had access to Arabic scriptures for years before his sudden encounter with a spirit.

It doesn’t prove that at all. You first of all don’t know how much Waraqa was actually able to translate and write, what he was translating from, and you have no proof that Muhammad was ever able to “access” it. Moreover, he was still illiterate. We expect he would know the scriptures existed, but NOT that he had ever read them or had any familiarity with them at all, and you cannot PROVE that he did.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Thank you. Now what about other recorded witnesses for the moon splitting into two? Where there any? As a rule, most people in a geographic area can see the moon at the same time.

Evidence from Authentic Prophetic Hadith

The event of the moon splitting has been reported in a number of authentically reported Hadith narrations, through more than three different chains of narration (that is, almost mutawatir):

Narrated **Abdullah ibn Masud**: “During the lifetime of the Prophet, the moon was split into two parts and on that the Prophet said, ‘Bear witness [to this]’” (Al-Bukhari).

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: ”The Makkan people requested Allah’s Messenger to show them a miracle, and so he showed them the splitting of the moon” (Al-Bukhari).

Narrated **Abdullah ibn Abbas**: “The moon was split into two parts during the lifetime of the Prophet” (Al-Bukhari).

Quoted from The Miracle of the Moon Splitting

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

inJESUS, why would you think the Jewish scriptures would be in Arabic? And do you think they were? Why would they be in Arabic and not in Hebrew?

Khadeejah undoubtedly took Muhammad to Waraqa because the message he received from Gabriel harkened to Jewish/Christian scrtipure and not to paganism.

And then of course Waraqa (the Christian) told Muhammad that he was a prophet.

He is speaking of a Translation from Hebrew to Arabic.

 

[Sister_Amy]

He is speaking of a Translation from Hebrew to Arabic.

So?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

truthnet.org/islam/source.htm
truthnet.org/islam/src-chp4.htm

Consort with them in the world kindly 31:15

majalla.org/books/quran/31.htm
answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/Vol1/5b.html
newadvent.org/cathen/08692a.htm

The fact that many non-biblcal stories of both the Jews and Christians appears in the koran, and the fact that Mo’s world was oral in nature, it is only reasonable that he learned these stories from both Christians and Jewish peoples.

JUDAISM AND ISLAM BY Abraham Geiger
Translated by F.M. Young, 1896

 

[inJESUS]

You have no proof that Muhammad used to listen to the Jews reading their scripture. Do you just make stuff up as you go along?

The following is transmitted by Bukhari and Muslim:

Abdallah b. Umar told that the Jews came to God's messenger and mentioned to him that a man and a woman of their number had committed fornication. He asked them what they found in the Torah about stoning and they replied that they should disgrace them and that they should be beaten. Abdallah b. Salam then said, “You lie; it contains instruction that they should be stoned to death, so bring the Torah.” They spread it out, and one of them put his hand over the verse of stoning and read what preceded it and what followed it. `Abdallah b. Salam told him to lift his hand and when he did so the verse of stoning was seen to be in it. They then said, “He has spoken the truth, Muhammad; the verse of stoning is in it.” The Prophet then gave command regarding them and they were stoned to death. In another version it says that he told him to lift his hand and that when he did so, the verse of stoning was clearly in it. The man then said, “It contains the verse of stoning, Muhammad, but we have been concealing it from one another.” He then gave command regarding them and they were stoned to death.

You read it as well in Ibn Kathir’s commentary.

Did they read their scripture infront of him or not?

why do you make it impossible for Muhammad to have listened to previous scriptures from whichever source before he met that spirit, during, and after it? We have Waraqa translating them, Waraqa who knew Muhammad for years, we have his own encounters with Jews, we have his own followers who knew the previous scriptures , we know of his trips where he encountered and listened to all kind of stories and legends, we have rabbis’ words in his book, we have Jewish legends in his book…what makes you think that he was unable, for 40 years and plus, to listen to previous scriptures?

From Sunan abi Daoud:

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar:
A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school.

They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.

I’m going to abstain from answering because I don’t know of any proof supporting either conclusion. You should do the same.

fine, but remember that Muhammad knew Waraqa for years. Do you think it was impossible for him to have listened to Waraqa talking about previous scriptures?

What authority? the authority to proclaim him a prophet.

 

[inJESUS]

Proof about witnesses to the angel Gabriel. It is called the Hadith Jibreel. Look it up. It has been reported by 7 different companions, all with authentic chains.

thx i’ll check it.

It doesn’t prove that at all. You first of all don’t know how much Waraqa was actually able to translate and write, what he was translating from, and you have no proof that Muhammad was ever able to “access” it. Moreover, he was still illiterate. We expect he would know the scriptures existed, but NOT that he had ever read them or had any familiarity with them at all, and you cannot PROVE that he did.

 

[inJESUS]

Proof about witnesses to the angel Gabriel. It is called the Hadith Jibreel. Look it up. It has been reported by 7 different companions, all with authentic chains.
.

is that it?

Umar ibn Khattab (Allah be well pleased with him) said:

“As we were sitting one day before the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him), a man suddenly appeared. He wore pure white clothes and his hair was dark black—yet there were no signs of travel on him, and none of us knew him.

He came and sat down in front of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), placing his knees against his, and his hands on his thighs. He said, “O Muhammad! Tell me about Islam.”

…

Then the visitor left, and I waited a long time. Then the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) asked me, “Do you know, Umar, who the questioner was?”

I replied, “Allah and His Messenger know best.”He said (Allah bless him and give him peace), “It was Jibril. He came to you to teach you your religion.”

i have another quote:

Bukhari 4.827

…Gabriel started talking (to the Prophet and then left. The Prophet said to Um Salama, “(Do you know) who it was?” (or a similar question). She said, “It was Dihya (a handsome person amongst the companions of the Prophet ).” Later on Um Salama said, “By Allah! I thought he was none but Dihya, till I heard the Prophet talking about Gabriel in his sermon.”

I see 2 people not knowing it was Jibreel unless Muhammad said so …so we are back to circular reasoning…it was Jibreel not Dihya because Muhammad said so…

 

[inJESUS]

Thank you Daniel for the links.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I am getting very tired of this game with you.

About Muhammad having heard Jews read their scripture. The first example you gave was to determine a ruling about the punishment for adultery. The Jews were hiding the punishment in the book, and Abdullah bin Salaam (who was a former Jew) was pointing out their error. This is not an example of the Jews teaching Muhammad by reading their scripture to him. Neither is your other example anything of the sort.

Regarding “authority” of Waraqa–why would he need authority to call Muhammad a prophet? And what sort of authority would he require to say so? I say so, and what authority do I have? I really don’t understand the question.

About the hadith of Jibreel, let me explain from the beginning. Medina wasn’t a large city. The people who lived there knew who else lived there. And they lived in the desert. So if someone just came up to them and they didn’t know who he was (and NONE of them knew him), it meant he would have to be a traveler from somewhere else. But he wasn’t a traveler–his clothes were totally clean and white (in the desert!!) and his hair was black and he was completely clean. Not a traveler. And then he sits with Muhammad, but in such an intimate way (which is also described in the hadith) that his companions wouldn’t even sit that way with him. There are 7 witnesses AT LEAST to this event, with their narrations passing through several chains.

The other example you gave, about Umm Salamah, is something similar. She gets to see the angel in the appearance of a man.

And of course Muhammad has to tell them it is Gabriel.

 

[inJESUS]

About Muhammad having heard Jews read their scripture. The first example you gave was to determine a ruling about the punishment for adultery. The Jews were hiding the punishment in the book, and Abdullah bin Salaam (who was a former Jew) was pointing out their error. This is not an example of the Jews teaching Muhammad by reading their scripture to him. Neither is your other example anything of the sort.

The city of Medina, some 280 miles north of Mecca, had originally been settled by Jewish tribes from the north, especially the Banu Nadir and Banu Quraiza. The comparative richness of the town attracted an infiltration of pagan Arabs who came at first as clients of the Jews and ultimately succeeded in dominating them. Medina, or, as it was known before Islam, Yathrib, had no form of stable government at all. The town was tom by the feuds of the rival Arab tribes of Aus and Khazraj, with the Jews maintaining an uneasy balance of power. The latter, engaged mainly in agriculture and handicrafts, were economically and culturally superior to the Arabs, and were consequently disliked… as soon as the Arabs had attained unity through the agency of Muhammad they attacked and ultimately eliminated the Jews.
In the last half of the fifth century, many Persian Jews fled from persecution to Arabia, swelling the Jewish population there

Hardly a city where everyone knew everyone…

The other example you gave, about Umm Salamah, is something similar. She gets to see the angel in the appearance of a man.

And of course Muhammad has to tell them it is Gabriel.

of course, which is called circular reasoning. Did you ever read of such thing in the Bible where someone had to tell others that it was an angel, not someone else?

[/QUOTE]

 

[ralphinal]

Sister Amy,
Thank you again for that information. So, there is no evidence outside of the ahadith that it occured. That is what I wanted to know. Now, plesae reconcile this with the claim that some have made that the only miricle Mohammid had was the Koran per Allah.

On another subject, what is the Arabic of Amy? Will you keep this first name or change to an Arabic one once you move?

 

[inJESUS]

Now, plesae reconcile this with the claim that some have made that the only miricle Mohammid had was the Koran per Allah

this is the Quranic claim.

 

[ralphinal]

this is the Quranic claim.

 

[dolphinlove]

inJESUS;3612610:

I thought so. Why would the Quran say one thing then ahadith another?

Well, when ‘inventing’ a religion, there is bound to be a few flaws along the way. A normal person would find it almost impossible to keep track of all the ‘stories’ he is telling.

I think on this site, we have pointed out many conflicting stories as to what the quran reveals and what is in the hadiths.

 

[planten]

this is the Quranic claim.

 

[planten]

inJesus post #32:
Easy, Waraqa proclaimed him a prophet, but Waraqa could be wrong, unless Jibreel told him so as well.

** There was no need for Jibreel to visit waraqa. Waraqa having the religious knowledge of the previous scriptures could foretell some event that he had known. There was no need of any fresh revelation to Waraqa at that time.

After hearing the incident, Waraqa could tell what he knew about it. And he was right. He had noted such things and that archangel appeared to many prophets before too. So he could only foretell something.

Waraqa said that it appeared that Muhammad had been visited by the archangel gabriel and he is destined to be a prophet of God. He also foretold that Muhamamd will have a bad time with his people and they may kick him out of the city (Makkah)… That he is too old and may not be alive then to see the eviction of Muhammad from his city…

This was in accordance with the teachings of Jesus when he said that “A prophet is never respected and welcome in his native city…” Please try to read your bible too.**

 

[planten]

** The topic is “Why the Islamic hadith are not too reliable?”

I give the answer. It is because they are just a slightly better than the bible NT. **.

 

[fdmilkis]

** The topic is “Why the Islamic hadith are not too reliable?”

I give the answer. It is because they are just a slightly better than the bible NT. **.