Why the Lack of Support & Exodus from the Church

[Erikaspirit16]

There is not a “large majority” of americans that agree with “gay marriage”, but it has become the law of the land.

As always, I like to look at the facts. Silly me. Pew Research Center poll–http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/ In 2001, Americans opposed same-sex marriage 57-31%. In 2017, the numbers had flipped–62% supported same-sex marriage, only 32% opposed it. A 2-1 margin.

You seem to be equating “consensus” with court rulings and a very slim majority in congress. There is no comparison between these.

No, I’m not. I’m not advocating decisions on moral questions where there is a clear disagreement in the population being left to a court or a few votes in Congress. My position, stated over and over and over, is that on these questions there should be a consensus in the population. You could argue whether that’s 60% or 70% or 80% or more, but it certainly is NOT 51% or 55%.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Finally, before I take a much-earned break from all this and celebrate New Years, let’s look at a couple other polls–this time about abortion.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx This is a compilation of Gallup polls over the years, and re-pays close reading. But all you really have to do is look at the first graph: what % of the population thought abortion should be illegal in all circumstances (the official Catholic position, and the position of many in this thread)? In 1975 it was 21%. It’s never gone higher than that in 42 years, and now it’s 18%. A small minority.

Let’s take a look at the opinion of Catholics only: http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/ 53% of CATHOLICS think abortion should be LEGAL in in all / most cases; only 44% say illegal.

And if you take a look at the graph below that, 22% of Democrats think abortion should be ILLEGAL in all / most cases; a higher % of Republicans, 34%, say abortion should be LEGAL in all / most cases. So it’s not a simple party divide, as some here would have it. Another graph breaks it down by “conservative Republicans” – even there, 27% of CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS said abortion should be LEGAL in all / most cases.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

My opinion is that abortion is murder.
I’m entitled to that opinion.
I’m not really here to convince other people, but if you ask me “What do you think of abortion?” I will give you an honest answer, and that is what I will say, and I do not apologize for it.

Edited to add, I don’t really care if 99.99% of the population disagrees with me either.

 

[Benadam]

Historically moral law is integrated into state law. Various religions formed the minds of law makers. This guidance from a morality that develops outside and above the state is why the state was able pass laws that correct immoral behavior. It was unfair to deny rights to Catholics,women, blacks, Jews, and any other group not identified with immoral behavior. I’m sure you know already. But, homosexuals are identified with behavior. . That is a fundamental reversal of the development of the Law. The ship you say that has sailed fills it’s sails with wind that comes from moral blindness and people indifferent to laws that come from it. People of faith must reverse laws that justify behaviors that attack marriage and the proper order of the human family.

I agree that people of faith have failed the system they guided… The failure is in the members that are indifferent to wrong morals and unwilling to help change them.

 

[Lara]

The horse is already out of the gate. It is already a baby. If a woman chooses to harm it by wresting it from it’s home and lifeline, she commits a grave sin. The sin can be forgiven, but only with remorse adequate to the gravity of the sin.

If somebody threw a baby from an apartment building and you were walking below and didn’t try to catch it, and it fell to the concrete sidewalk, would you say, you “chose to allow it to fall?” This would be equally immoral. Some things you cannot choose. You must do. You must allow a baby to remain where it is safe in the womb. You must give a falling baby every chance to live.

Only difference is one baby is small, and the other baby is large.

 

[Elf01]

So if the Germans had really believed jews weren’t human it would have been fine?

My analogy taking you to an uncomfortable place doesn’t make it bad.

 

[mkoopman]

Wrong. The laws in Germany at the time show you to be wrong. While on this ask how Pelosi scored on accepting the excerpts from Hitler’s speeches when this study was anonymously conducted. Well, conducted by those Portuguese reds, that is; godless commies.
I scored rather poorly until the false quotations from the Word of God became evident. My guess is you were not even alive when this political wing still flew.

 

[guanophore]

Well, that would obviously be impractical to enforce.

We could try! You know, I hear that the companies now have devices that can record everything in your home!

And everyone has a right to their own beliefs. And I have no right to inflict my beliefs on others, nor do they have a right to inflict their beliefs on me.

The fact is that the rule of law is basically the majority inflicting their beliefs about right and wrong onto others.

 

[steve-b]

Finally, before I take a much-earned break from all this and celebrate New Years, let’s look at a couple other polls–this time about abortion.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx This is a compilation of Gallup polls over the years, and re-pays close reading. But all you really have to do is look at the first graph: what % of the population thought abortion should be illegal in all circumstances (the official Catholic position, and the position of many in this thread)? In 1975 it was 21%. It’s never gone higher than that in 42 years, and now it’s 18%. A small minority.

Let’s take a look at the opinion of Catholics only: http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/ 53% of CATHOLICS think abortion should be LEGAL in in all / most cases; only 44% say illegal.

And if you take a look at the graph below that, 22% of Democrats think abortion should be ILLEGAL in all / most cases; a higher % of Republicans, 34%, say abortion should be LEGAL in all / most cases. So it’s not a simple party divide, as some here would have it. Another graph breaks it down by “conservative Republicans” – even there, 27% of CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS said abortion should be LEGAL in all / most cases.

Abortion is the deliberate action ending a baby’s life. The fact there is any argument here over whether it is good or bad, shows why, in the end, adding up all the other issues and choices one makes in life as well, just name the issue,

Shows why, in the end, most people go to hell Luke 13:23-28 , Lk 13:23-28 RSVCE - And some one said to him, “Lord, will - Bible Gateway

God told us in advance how it will be. And it’s not up to a poll, nor up to a vote of any kind. Nor sadly does it (that warning of hell) cause any fear in those who need to change their trajectory.

 

[HarryStotle]

Sometimes I think my fellow Catholics got too far with their language usage & it make potential newcomers go like

Matthew 24:37-44New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding meal together; one will be taken and one will be left. Keep awake therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But understand this: if the owner of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.

 

[NoelFitz]

To #121

Abortion is murder, but not the focus of this thread.

Happy new year to all, including the unborn.

Are people claiming the exodus from the Church is due to excessive emphasis on abortion in the Church, or the opposite?

 

[Elf01]

Are people claiming the exodus from the Church is due to excessive emphasis on abortion in the Church, or the opposite?

My reading is that the lack of support for those ‘Catholic’ politicians is due to their support of abortion.

 

[mkoopman]

The rule of law should be about what ought to be done and regarding the need to support the common good at a level that individuals and independent groups may not be capable of doing.
And, no more.

Instead of this positive extension of the domestic family government is Smaug.
I just want to move back to the Shire and eat six meals a day.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

My reading is that the lack of support for those ‘Catholic’ politicians is due to their support of abortion.

Yes, and the Catholics who are pulling their support for these “Catholic” politicians are generally not the Catholics who are making an “exodus” from the church. They are more likely to be down at Church every time the doors are open, to be honest.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Are people claiming the exodus from the Church is due to excessive emphasis on abortion in the Church, or the opposite?

From my point of view, the fanaticism and single-minded focus on one issue has driven many reasonable people from the Church, yes.

 

[HarryStotle]

From my point of view, the fanaticism and single-minded focus on one issue has driven many reasonable people from the Church,

LOL. Given that it was Jesus who adamantly required “fanaticism and single-minded focus” in the first place, hopefully your statement will fall on deaf ears.

“Listen! A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell on the path, and the birds came and ate them up. Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and they sprang up quickly, since they had no depth of soil. But when the sun rose, they were scorched; and since they had no root, they withered away. Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Let anyone with ears listen!” (Matthew 13:3-9)

… because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spit you out of my mouth. (Rev 3:16)

“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls; on finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it. (Matt 13:45-6)

Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” (Mark 10:21)

Back in the first century, it was the single-minded fanaticism of Apostles like Peter and Paul that brought many into the Church. In modern times, from your “point of view,” that same fervor for the Gospel will drive many out of the Church. What has changed?

Continued…

 

[HarryStotle]

Let me propose something…

We are coming to a time when there will exist only two kinds of fanaticism

1. Fanaticism for the truth. A single-minded devotion and faithfulness to seeking the truth and finding it
2. Fanaticism for the avoidance of the truth based upon a do-what-I-want-to-decide-for-myself-what-I-want single-minded devotion to not permitting any hold for the truth to enter because that would mean committing to something other than my own ego.

Let’s not be suckered in, those who side with 2) are far more fanatical and demanding that the former precisely because they have the most to lose, in their eyes. After all, if the truth is something outside of their very self, their ego – at least the notion of their “self” they fully subscribe to – they will have to lose their very self and all of its hedonistic pride and concupiscence that grounds it. The truth, being a thing transcendent and beyond the egoistic self requires a losing of that self – not an easy thing.

That is why there are few who will take the narrow path.

In times such as ours, the wide path has not only been lined with silver, but has all kinds of fatal attractions, ostentatious tourist traps, casinos and Vegas-style hotels that have been constructed along its main strip. The truth is small and lies buried incognito beneath the plain and the bland and the ordinary with…

…no form or majesty that we should look at him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by others;
a man of suffering and acquainted with infirmity;
and as one from whom others hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him of no account. (Isaiah 53)

Let’s not fool ourselves. The unborn child in the womb is the unborn Christ-child who represents the requirements of love, responsibility, crosses to bear and sacrifices to be made. Killing that child, just as crucifying Christ means freedom from all of those, at least immediately and temporarily. For those who cannot see beyond the immediate and temporary, that trade-off is worth it to them in terms of what is to be gained vs the loss of Christ that means nothing because that loss has no tangible quality representing any kind of gain for them.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

the fanaticism and single-minded focus on one issue

The issue involves killing people who are 100% innocent.

It’s not even the same as capital punishment, where an argument could be made that the executed person has done something to warrant or necessitate death. (Please note I am also against capital punishment so I don’t agree with that argument, just pointing out that it could be made.)

In addition to killing innocent babies in the womb - who by the way, suddenly legally become “persons” when a prosecutor wishes to get either an extra murder count or extra pizzazz for his argument if pregnant mom is murdered - abortion is the slippery slope to a general disregard for life. Euthanasia will be next, then various other forms of eliminating people that society has decided it does not wish to keep.

Believe me, it would be much easier for me to just take a position of “it’s the mom’s individual moral choice, I can’t impose my morals on others, blahblah” then to try to do something about it. VASTLY easier. But when JFK wrote “Profiles in Courage”, it was not about people who did an easy thing. It was about people who took up an unpopular position because their conscience dictated.

And you’d call that “fanaticism”. I am sad for you and those who think like you do. Maybe I should send Tim Kaine a bouquet because he’s the one who finally made me realize just how sad I felt about it.

 

[Axsenex]

Still arguing about everything?

 

[RandomAlias]

LOL. Given that it was Jesus who adamantly required “fanaticism and single-minded focus” in the first place, …

Back in the first century, it was the single-minded fanaticism of Apostles like Peter and Paul that brought many into the Church.

Yes, but what was that fanaticism focused upon? Abortion? No. Injustice and impurity? Getting closer, but still not there.

The Christians of the first century were preaching about God’s love for us, and how we should love God and one another; that God sent his only Son, who came to destroy death and lead us to righteousness; that God’s mercy is abundant and helps us to turn away from sin and toward good; that the Holy Spirit inspires and helps and guides us; that we need to lift up each other in faith and virtue, and accompany each other along the Way to eternal life.

Of course, they also spoke out against specific injustices and impurities, but that wasn’t the core of their message.

If there is one issue that we need to preach to the faithless or those of weak faith, what is it? If the entire message is “Say no to abortion,” it doesn’t get to the root of the problem, and I wouldn’t expect it to work.

From my point of view, the fanaticism and single-minded focus on one issue has driven many reasonable people from the Church, yes.

I am not sure that it drives people away, but I am sure that the single-minded focus on abortion leads us to miss opportunities to draw others to the core of our faith.

If faithful Catholics went around spreading the good news of the Gospel, perhaps we would make a little more headway against abortion and other evils and injustices of our society.

That is not what we are accustomed to doing. It is uncomfortable and risky. But on the other hand, when one approach doesn’t work, we should try another. Or do both, as they did in the early Church.