Why the obsession with 10 commandments?

[Neil_Anthony]

From here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=7204&highlight=sabbath

It sounds like Catholics do not follow the 10 Commandments. So why do I hear Catholics make such a big deal about the 10 Commandments? Why do Catholics care when a monument is removed?

Hi Ammonius,

To answer the question of “why”, you can read more about it here:

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/decalog.html#TEN

It seems to me from my own studies and from reading that page that, to a theological analytical legalistic mindset, it doesn’t exactly make a lot of sense that we’re so attached to the ten commandments. That’s because like you said they’re part of a larger set of laws which we don’t strictly follow, and we don’t even follow the ten commandments as they are, and make exceptions.

Jesus on the other hand objected to the legalistic way of looking at the commandments. Instead he would often speak of “the commandments” in general and listed just some of them when describing what had to be done to inherit eternal life. He objected to following the commandments in a strict way while ignoring the spirit of the law. He expanded upon some of the commandments in what a legalist would call an extreme way, for example taking the “thou shalt not kill” commandment and expanding it to include not just physical violence, and not just malicious words, but even having anger in your heart. And with commandments like the sabbath he emphasized that its purpose was to help people, not to be a burden to them. The theological undrestanding of this is that Christ was looking at the natural law in the commandments and expanding on them or making exceptions as the natural law and the laws of loving God and Neighbour required. But still he referred to this expanded way of looking at morality as “following the commandments” even though from a legalistic point of view, the resulting moral code only vauely resembles that decalogue (in my opinion).

So I would say that the ten commandments in court houses is very symbolic, rather than being something we follow in a legalistic way.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Ammonius Saccus, forgive some of my more ignorant bretheren. catholics “care” about the “ten commandments” because they are good moral guides and they are the 10 out of the 613 that were “written by the very hand of G-d”" I hope you have no problem with these commandments being honored by Christians…but no, in the Jewish sense, we don’t OBSERVE them…we don’t keep sabbath, we observe the Lord’s day instead, etc

My problem isn’t so much with my fellow Catholics who talk about the 10 Commandments, my problem is with NON CATHOLIC Christians that say we MUST tithe and must observe Sabbath (Saturday) in order to be Christian (SDA’s I’m looking your direction)…when CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE written by St. Paul CLEARLY states that if we seek to justify ourselves in the observance of the Law, yet violate any part of it, we become guilty of ALL the law.

A.S., don’t be so hard on us Christians who think the 10 commandments are a good idea.

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

Ammonius Saccus, forgive some of my more ignorant bretheren. catholics “care” about the “ten commandments” because they are good moral guides and they are the 10 out of the 613 that were “written by the very hand of G-d”"

The 10 Commandments are not part of the 613.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Actually, the 10 ARE part of the 613…read the web site you yourself posted…the Command listed as number 2 on the web site is the 1st Commandment on most Christian lists…and so on # 59 corresponds to the Christian 4th, etc.

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

Actually, the 10 ARE part of the 613…read the web site you yourself posted…the Command listed as number 2 on the web site is the 1st Commandment on most Christian lists…and so on # 59 corresponds to the Christian 4th, etc.

A common misunderstanding. Here is a nice article on the 10 Commandments.

jewfaq.org/10.htm

The Aseret ha-Dibrot are not understood as individual mitzvot; rather, they are categories or classifications of mitzvot. Each of the 613 mitzvot can be subsumed under one of these ten categories, some in more obvious ways than others. For example, the mitzvah not to work on Shabbat rather obviously falls within the category of remembering the Sabbath day and keeping it holy.

 

[Hellisreal]

So why don’t Christians follow all the law? They do they pick and choose? And why do they make such a big deal of the Ten Commandments which are not part of the law (not even really commandments)?

We do follow the Law.

Our also following Jesus does not discount this, as He is God in the flesh.

 

[john_doran]

Why do Christians (including Catholics) care so much about the 10 commandments?

i’m not sure why you think that catholics “care so much” about, or are “obsessed with” the decalogue. more accurately, we consider them to be statements of general and generally exigent moral tenets. that is, they offer insight into how to do the right thing.
Ammonius Saccus:

Why should non-Jews care about any of the 613 Mitzvot?

i guess it depends on what the specific non-jews in question think about the relation between religion and ethics.
Ammonius Saccus:

Shouldn’t the concern for non-Jews, according to the Tanakh, be the Seven Laws of Noah?

why would you think that we would have a good answer to this, seemingly a question of jewish scriptural interpretation?
Ammonius Saccus:

If Catholics are not going to follow all of God’s Mitzvot, should they be picking and choosing in a manner not given by God?

we don’t pick and choose in a manner not given by god: we believe that god gives us all of the moral guidelines we need, directly, through the teaching authority of the catholic church.

 

[Valke2]

The answer to this is really quite simple. The ten commandments were dictated by God Himself. There were also a hefty number of additional commandments that God dictated, such as the laws regarding marriage and dietary restrictions, but the 613 Mitzvot arose as a result of overanalysis of those commandments and paranoia on the part of the Jews (no offense). They were afraid that if they didn’t follow the commandments PERFECTLY that God would punish them as He had done for their previous bouts of sin. They are man-made laws that are merely based, and often loosely, on the actual ten commandments. Jesus himself seems to have spent a great deal of time reminding people of this, which is the main reason that so many of the Jewish authorities were furious with him. Jesus specifically nullified those commandments that humanity had outgrown, such as the prescription for divorce and the dietary restrictions, and left the rest intact. The Jews had already figured out that it wasn’t humanly possible to follow those laws perfectly, and yet the authorities kept insisting that they must. Jesus introduced us to the concept that God does not demand perfect obedience from an imperfect people. He simply demands that we try.

No offense, but that is a painfully wrong explanation as to the 613 Mitzvot.

There are some laws that fall into the category of “building a fence around the Torah”. For example, the prohibition against carrying money on Shabbat is in place so that we won’t be tempted to spend money on Shabbat. Jesus expanded some of our commandments in this way, during his “It has been said…but I say…” speech.

In addition to such commandments there are many that are others that are to be found in the Torah. FOr example, the prohibiton against eating the sinew of the thigh-vein, which can be found in Gen. 32:33.

As for the realization that it was impossible to perfectly follow all our laws, if true, has no bearing on the fact that we are to follow them anyway. IN any event, there isn’t one law/mitzvot/commandment that is beyond our ability to follow.

 

[bobzills]

IN any event, there isn’t one law/mitzvot/commandment that is beyond our ability to follow.

If there is a celebration at the office, and someone brings a cake, can an observant Jew eat it. Or do you have to verify with the baker that it does not contain baking powder made with cream of tartar. (Cream of tartar is a by product of wine making, and is it not true that wines made by non-Jews are prohibited?)

 

[bobzills]

IN any event, there isn’t one law/mitzvot/commandment that is beyond our ability to follow.

Would it not be dificult for an observant Jew in the USA to follow: #172: Not to borrow on interest?
What about home mortgages, credit cards, etc.?

 

[Valke2]

If there is a celebration at the office, and someone brings a cake, can an observant Jew eat it. Or do you have to verify with the baker that it does not contain baking powder made with cream of tartar. (Cream of tartar is a by product of wine making, and is it not true that wines made by non-Jews are prohibited?)

That would depend on one’s level of observence and what the Rabbi of your community has to say on the matter. Personally, my rabbi would not prohibit the eating of a cape made with a by product of wine. Another community might be prohibited from eating such a cake. The underlyng consideration is whether eating such a cake would be a violation of the dietary mitzvot. Reasonable rabbis will differ.

 

[bobzills]

That would depend on one’s level of observence and what the Rabbi of your community has to say on the matter. Personally, my rabbi would not prohibit the eating of a cape made with a by product of wine. Another community might be prohibited from eating such a cake. The underlyng consideration is whether eating such a cake would be a violation of the dietary mitzvot. Reasonable rabbis will differ.

The question I was addressing was whether or not a specific commandment of the 613 would be difficult to follow. My statement would be that if one rabbi says one thing and another rabbi says something different on eating cake where cream of tartar was used, then it would not be easy to follow the correct path.
And still, I think it would be difficult in the USA for a Jew to follow #172: Not to borrow on interest?

 

[Valke2]

Would it not be dificult for an observant Jew in the USA to follow: #172: Not to borrow on interest?
What about home mortgages, credit cards, etc.?

Yes. It would be very difficult. WHich is why Jews have devloped a complicated system known as ‘heter iska.’ It would take someone with a much greater understanding than me to adquately explain this. Heter iska is a tool, which has been revised over centuries, that allows a lender to lend money to a borrow ed, and perfected over many centuries-- with which a lender may lend money to a borrower and be permitted to collect interest on the loan. It is a legal document which converts a loan into an investment, that carries a small (very) risk of loss of principal to the lender. Since interest is forbidden only when a fully guaranteed loan takes place, this tool allows the lender to earn “profits” from his “investment” as opposed to “interest” from a “loan”, and it is therefore permitted.

Most orthodox rabbis agree that a heter iska is valid only if the money is being borrowed to invest in a business or in a property, or if the money being borrowed will free other money to be used for a business transaction. So, for example, a person who borrows money to pay for his daughter’s wedding, does not have any profit-generating holdings or assets, may not use a heter iska to borrow money.

So, to answer your question, it is harder for a religious jew to borrow money, but far from impossible.

 

[Valke2]

The question I was addressing was whether or not a specific commandment of the 613 would be difficult to follow. My statement would be that if one rabbi says one thing and another rabbi says something different on eating cake where cream of tartar was used, then it would not be easy to follow the correct path.
And still, I think it would be difficult in the USA for a Jew to follow #172: Not to borrow on interest?

If an orthodox Jew follows the holding of his rabbi regarding cake, then he or she is keeping the commandment. It is not difficult. And certainly, we do not believe God intended us to throw out the Torah because someday the Smiths might drop by with a bunt cake.

 

[Valke2]

BTW, I’m not sure what list you’re using to address the mitzvot as number 172. IN my book, 172 has to do with eating a non-kosher meat. Lists are just that. Lists. The most common one being the list compiled by Maimonides. Other rabbis sages have come up with lists that show a total number less or more than 613. This is usually because they combine two or more mitzvot and hold that hey are really one. Or they divide one into two seperate mitzvot.

 

[bobzills]

Yes. It would be very difficult. WHich is why Jews have devloped a complicated system known as ‘heter iska.’ It would take someone with a much greater understanding than me to adquately explain this. Heter iska is a tool, which has been revised over centuries, that allows a lender to lend money to a borrow ed, and perfected over many centuries-- with which a lender may lend money to a borrower and be permitted to collect interest on the loan. It is a legal document which converts a loan into an investment, that carries a small (very) risk of loss of principal to the lender. Since interest is forbidden only when a fully guaranteed loan takes place, this tool allows the lender to earn “profits” from his “investment” as opposed to “interest” from a “loan”, and it is therefore permitted.

Most orthodox rabbis agree that a heter iska is valid only if the money is being borrowed to invest in a business or in a property, or if the money being borrowed will free other money to be used for a business transaction. So, for example, a person who borrows money to pay for his daughter’s wedding, does not have any profit-generating holdings or assets, may not use a heter iska to borrow money.

So, to answer your question, it is harder for a religious jew to borrow money, but far from impossible.

Well, the system described is mathematically equivalent to borrowing a loan with interest, is it not? And secondly, although it may be possible to establish these legal contracts in Israel, can they be setup that easily in the USA when a Jew is trying to buy a house, for example.
Anyway, thanks for the explanation, as I guess that my point has been made that some of the 613 commandments are difficult to observe.

 

[bobzills]

BTW, I’m not sure what list you’re using to address the mitzvot as number 172. IN my book, 172 has to do with eating a non-kosher meat. Lists are just that. Lists. The most common one being the list compiled by Maimonides. Other rabbis sages have come up with lists that show a total number less or more than 613. This is usually because they combine two or more mitzvot and hold that hey are really one. Or they divide one into two seperate mitzvot.

Right. I saw that there are several different enumerations. I was using:
jewfaq.org/613.htm

 

[Valke2]

Well, the system described is mathematically equivalent to borrowing a loan with interest, is it not? And secondly, although it may be possible to establish these legal contracts in Israel, can they be setup that easily in the USA when a Jew is trying to buy a house, for example.
Anyway, thanks for the explanation, as I guess that my point has been made that some of the 613 commandments are difficult to observe.

It is how one can lend and borrow money and not violate halacha. I never said some of the commandments were not difficult to observe. I agree that some, and for me many, are difficult to observe. That this is true for many Jews does not have any bearing on whether or not we should be Torah observant. Normative Judaism does not view the mitzvot as a burdern.

 

[bobzills]

It is how one can lend and borrow money and not violate halacha. I never said some of the commandments were not difficult to observe. I agree that some, and for me many, are difficult to observe. That this is true for many Jews does not have any bearing on whether or not we should be Torah observant. Normative Judaism does not view the mitzvot as a burdern.

OK.
Thanks for your explanations. I enjoyed reading them.

 

[Valke2]

Well, the system described is mathematically equivalent to borrowing a loan with interest, is it not? And secondly, although it may be possible to establish these legal contracts in Israel, can they be setup that easily in the USA when a Jew is trying to buy a house, for example.
Anyway, thanks for the explanation, as I guess that my point has been made that some of the 613 commandments are difficult to observe.

yeah. there are banks that are set up for this in the USA. You would’nt have much difficulty in finding one in Brooklyn, NY. If you are an observant Jew in Utah, I imagine it would be more difficult.