Why the rejection of a hell now?

[glendab]

Hello All. This question keeps rattling around in my head along with my few nuts and bolts. I think the question is actually a deeper one. The asking of why this particular error among the list of errors is so prolific these days is an observation that speaks volumes. It really has no simply answer. The negation of Hell and the various ways to get there in one’s thinking can be arrived at by several roads and these roads are paved by different errors. A person who thinks there is no God, certainly has no belief in Hell either, but then there are those who arrive at the same destination by living a different error - that of universal salvation in which even the devils will be saved, turning Hell into a purgatorial place. Then there are those who simply don’t believe in anything not nice and Hell is certainly a not nice place so therefore it gets dismissed. Others believe there is no Hell for some, including of course, themselves, and anyone who believes the specific way they do and sorry for anyone who doesn’t so Hell may remain a reality but who goes there changes. So do the reasons for going there. There are also some who think there cannot be a Hell because God is Love and a truly loving Father couldn’t stand the thought of His children suffering in a place like Hell, so it must be a myth or something else they can’t fully explain, but God’s love negates it as a possibility.

So you see, there are many roads to the same destination and you really have to dig for the specifics of why each individual rejects the dogma of Hell for I think each individual will have a reason all his or her own.

Glenda

 

[fred_conty]

The prevelant idea of “once saved always saved” is a great contributor of this.

The other idea of predestination is another.

And of course, who really thinks they will go to hell? Anyone reading this really think this?
It would be against the theological virture of hope.

 

[Vico]

…

Even if the Church is silent on damning any particular person, there is a catch: it is not official teaching to say that any particular individual is in Hell, but it is official teaching (and doctrine?) that demons exist, and that these demons are possessed of free will, and that these demons are irreparably sentenced to eternal damnation. …

There are some damned persons named in the Bible: Judas, and “you scribes and Pharisees”.

Matthew 2624 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born. 25 And Judas that betrayed him, answering, said: Is it I, Rabbi? He saith to him: Thou hast said it.
The fallen angels are damned. Although they have free will, their nature makes repentance impossible. Denzinger 428. LATERAN COUNCIL IV 1215
Ecumenical XII (against the Albigensians, Joachim, Waldensians etc. The Trinity, Sacraments, Canonical Mission, etc.*

Chap. 1. The Catholic Faith (Definition directed against the Albigensians and other heretics]

428 Firmly we believe and we confess simply that the true God is one alone, eternal, immense, and unchangeable, incomprehensible, omnipotent and ineffable, Father and Son and Holy Spirit: indeed three Persons but one essence, substance, or nature entirely simple. The Father from no one, the Son from the Father only, and the Holy Spirit equally from both; without beginning, always, and without end; the Father generating, the Son being born, and the Holy Spirit proceeding; consubstantial and coequal and omnipotent and coeternal; one beginning of all, creator of all visible and invisible things, of the spiritual and of the corporal; who by His own omnipotent power at once from the beginning of time created each creature from nothing, spiritual, and corporal, namely, angelic and mundane, and finally the human, constituted as it were, alike of the spirit and the body. For the devil and other demons were created by God good in nature, but they themselves through themselves have become wicked. But man sinned at the suggestion of the devil. This Holy Trinity according to common essence undivided, and according to personal properties distinct, granted the doctrine of salvation to the human race, first through Moses and the holy prophets and his other servants according to the most methodical disposition of the time.
All will not be saved according to the Ecumenical Council of Constantinople in 553 A.D.

Matthew 25:41Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.(Denzinger 211) Council of Constantinople in 553 A.D.:Can. 9. If anyone says or holds that the punishment of the demons and of impious men is temporary, and that it will have an end at some time, that is to say, there will be a complete restoration of the demons or of impious men, let him be anathema.
Dogmatic Decrees of the Vatican Council, On Faith, Chapter III. Further, all those things are to be believed with divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgment, or by her ordinary and universal magisterium, proposes for belief as having been divinely revealed. And since, without faith, it is impossible to please God, and to attain to the fellowship of his children, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will any one obtain eternal life unless he shall have persevered in faith unto the end.
Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (New York:Harper, 1877), Volume II, pp. 244-245.

 

[oneofmany]

Well most Protestants don’t have a Catholic catechism so they won’t understand it.

Even St. Paul said he had to work out his salvation but they jump over that as well.

 

[Trekker47]

Well most Protestants don’t have a Catholic catechism so they won’t understand it.

Even St. Paul said he had to work out his salvation but they jump over that as well.

It doesn’t take a catechism to understand that Jesus was referring to hell when He said it would have been better for Judas to have ‘never been born’. If everyone went to heaven that would hardly be true.

 

[eddie_too]

what WAS Jesus talking about when He told the story of the final judgment and told the accursed to depart from Him in to the eternal fires?

matthew 25:41-46

 

[captainrick]

1. 
   

   Isn’t it a part of Protestantism?
   
   I think Martin Luther rejected the belief in Hell.

   No, it’s not. Many evangelicals preach about sin and the resulting hellfire.

 

[glendab]

Hello Fred.

The prevelant idea of “once saved always saved” is a great contributor of this.

The other idea of predestination is another.

And of course, who really thinks they will go to hell? Anyone reading this really think this?
It would be against the theological virture of hope.

YES! I’m a convert and part of my conversion was the admitting that yes, in deedie, I was most certainly on my way to Hell and on a very slippery slope. I was actually very frightened about dying before I got to the waters of Baptism. This distress was actually added to by a car-totalling wreck two weeks prior to my Baptism at the Easter Vigil! I actually had a dream about it two weeks prior only in my dream my car burst into flames! I drove a Red Chevy Baretta at the time and a White Chevy Capris took out the whole back end. My gas tank was wiped! There was gasoline everywhere. I stepped into a puddle of it getting out of the car and so did both of my daughters! It should’ve gone up! Yeah. That close! And ya know what else? I had a really good laugh after about three weeks into my journey as a Catholic because I stumbled upon a simple thing called Baptism of Desire and if I had burnt up in my car that evening as I did in the dream the two weeks before, I would’ve probably qualified for Baptism of Desire because I was two weeks shy of my actual Baptism. Needless to say, I am very grateful to be alive and not fried and I hope that my final destination is a lot less hot than I knew was the most likely destination prior to conversion. Thank You Jesus, for saving me, body and soul.

Hell is real and plenty of folks go there by a little thing called “choice.” If you’re headed in the wrong direction God allows U-turns, but the Statie might not so go s-l-o-w-l-y.

Glenda

 

[Lek]

There have been different views concerning hell that have been held by believing christians since the very early days of the christian church. One view is the “eternal damnation” view, which the catholic church eventually adopted, and it became the predominant view and was also retained by the reformers. There are actually two other views that can be supported from scripture. One view called, conditional immortality, is that "unsaved " individuals go to hell and spend an appropriate time there, after which they are annihilated. The other view called, christian universalism, states than an unsaved individual goes to hell and remains there until they eventually accept Christ, after which they are taken into heaven. It is my opinion that there is more bible evidence for this view, and I lean strongly toward this view. These views all acknowledge that some people will go to hell, and you can find verses in scripture to support each. It is difficult to imagine an all-loving God who would punish a person who denied him for say, 80 years, with an eternity of horrible suffering in hell. We’re talking a trillion times a trillion years–and that’s just getting started.

 

[glendab]

Hello Fred.

The prevelant idea of “once saved always saved” is a great contributor of this.

The other idea of predestination is another.

And of course, who really thinks they will go to hell? Anyone reading this really think this?
It would be against the theological virture of hope.

I’m wondering how you find that fear of Hell is against the theological virtue of hope? Can you flesh it out a bit?

Glenda

 

[clem456]

The Church acknowledges the existence of hell and has always acknowledged the real possibility of damnation.
It does not proclaim that specific souls are damned. We do not proclaim that Hitler is in hell. We do proclaim that JP2 is a saint. He is canonized. We know his “whereabouts”.

The Church does not hold to double predestination as some other Christian denominations do, which is the idea that some are destined for hell and some are destined for heaven.

 

[Trekker47]

There have been different views concerning hell that have been held by believing christians since the very early days of the christian church. One view is the “eternal damnation” view, which the catholic church eventually adopted, and it became the predominant view and was also retained by the reformers. There are actually two other views that can be supported from scripture. One view called, conditional immortality, is that "unsaved " individuals go to hell and spend an appropriate time there, after which they are annihilated. The other view called, christian universalism, states than an unsaved individual goes to hell and remains there until they eventually accept Christ, after which they are taken into heaven. It is my opinion that there is more bible evidence for this view, and I lean strongly toward this view. These views all acknowledge that some people will go to hell, and you can find verses in scripture to support each. It is difficult to imagine an all-loving God who would punish a person who denied him for say, 80 years, with an eternity of horrible suffering in hell. We’re talking a trillion times a trillion years–and that’s just getting started.

Really? I was looking into annihilationism recently because of a discussion with a JW and I have to say I really don’t see much evidence for it. There are quite enough passages to justify the Church’s interpretation of hell as eternal, I would think.
About the whole “God is too loving” thing, I’d recommend you read CS Lewis’ book “The Problem of Pain”, it’s an interesting read and looks at the idea of hell from that perspective. I distinctly remember one line, “It is only to the damned that their fate could ever seem less than unendurable.”
Oh hey, found it online. Chapter VIII if you want (it’s short), though I admit I’m not a great fan of reading books on a computer myself. fellowshipoffaith.org/images/files/upload/Problem_of_Pain.pdf

 

[clem456]

Really? I was looking into annihilationism recently because of a discussion with a JW and I have to say I really don’t see much evidence for it. There are quite enough passages to justify the Church’s interpretation of hell as eternal, I would think.
About the whole “God is too loving” thing, I’d recommend you read CS Lewis’ book “The Problem of Pain”, it’s an interesting read and looks at the idea of hell from that perspective. I distinctly remember one line, “It is only to the damned that their fate could ever seem less than unendurable.”
Oh hey, found it online. Chapter VIII if you want (it’s short), though I admit I’m not a great fan of reading books on a computer myself. fellowshipoffaith.org/images/files/upload/Problem_of_Pain.pdf

Thanks for that link. I read that chapter 8.
It is terrifying in it’s description of the self-enclosed hell.

 

[PJM]

=oneofmany;12456210]On another web site I go to there are so many people in the Christianity forum that say there is no hell and if there is one, no one goes there. All are saved.

Where has that idea come from? One man even said he had a mental breakdown when he couldn’t bear the thought of people going to hell forever. He was mentally ill for 12 years than found a minister who taught him better and he is well now.

They have even quoted Pope Francis on Christ redeeming everyone as proof everyone is saved and going to heaven. Of course, the Protestants do not understand redemption and salvation so they think the Pope is saying we are all home free.

They even say those who talk about hell are mean and just think that way because they want others to go there and they will be in heaven proving they were the righteous ones while all those others belonged in hell. Quite a cynical idea but that is their take on it.

It is Satan’s influence in the times in which we live.

“The father of lies” has an easy sell on this because its what MANY WANT TO BELIEVE so they can lead their sinful life’s without a guilty conscience.

It is NOT biblical, it is not even logical, but it is “easy”

Mt. 7: 13-20 "Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!*** Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.***

By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them".

BUT All men MUST strive to inform their conscience rightly. God WILL judge based on what He makes POSSIBLE for us to know; NOT what we choose to believe, accept and do…Amen!

 

[RHC]

I have always found it interesting that people who deny the existence of God (or merely think of Him as a “force” or “energy”) will often acknowledge the idea of a hell. They may say it like, “I hope there’s a really hot corner in hell for ____.” Whether they admit it or not, there is an innate sense of justice in all of us, and we instinctively know that evil demands punishment (Romans 2:14-15).

As for why hell is “out of vogue,” it’s because our understanding is skewed. God is love, yes, and He is all-merciful. But He is also holy, and sin cannot be in the presence of a holy God. We lack the perspective that Isaiah had, when he saw the Lord on His throne with the seraphim: “Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!” (Isaiah 6:5). God is also justice, and His justice demands that sin be punished.

The health-and-wealth “gospel” promulgated by certain preachers makes it seem like God is just a big jolly Santa in the sky who wants nothing more than to make us happy and give us stuff; such a “God” would not want anyone to go to hell because he just wants them to be happy, right? For others, the existence of hell means that there is a right and wrong, and it goes against the moral relativism of our culture - to have a standard of right and wrong means that we cannot just live as we want with no repercussions. In addition, the Screwtape Letters were right: the best trick of the devil is to convince people that he doesn’t exist (and, by extension, hell doesn’t exist nor does punishment for sin).

 

[oneofmany]

I am currently taking a class on Revelation. St. John saw Satan pretending to be like Jesus to fool people and saying things like Jesus to lure people into believing he was Jesus. People are tricked into believing he is Jesus and follow him. It’s easy to get people to follow you if you pretend to be good and not really horrible, just good enough to fool people into following you to hell.

Also tricking people into believing God could never forgive your sins, they are too horrible, so you turn away from God by believing Satan’s lie. Satan is the father of lies and cunning. I did not know how cunning until I read how people don’t believe there is a hell anymore. Or if there is one, no one goes there. A huge, cunning lie from Satan to trick people into going there. The worst lie of all, not to believe in hell when there certainly is one.

It seems scrupulosity leads to this kind of thinking like the man online who had a breakdown thinking God could send anyone to hell. No wonder scrupulosity is a sin. Satan uses it to lure us to hell telling us lies and actually making us worry so much one would have a breakdown. There seems to be a whole ministry teaching this now and people think they are following the truth but are following Satan to hell. Scary.

The Class I am taking is, “Revelation, the Kingdom Yet to Come” taught by Jeff Cavins & Thomas Smith.

 

[Mikefitzgerald]

It’s not a new idea, but I’d venture that if it’s more popular now, it’s because the current age is very much into ‘kindness’. Every age has its own favourite virtues - during the Crusades it’d have been bravery, the Victorians were into chastity. In the modern world as long as you’re ‘kind’ everything’s seen to be alright. For that reason some people can’t stand the idea of a hell at all.
Of course, that would completely negate the idea of free will, if we don’t have any choice between heaven and something else. The voluntary self-surrender necessary for heaven is exactly that, ‘self’-surrender, nobody else can do it for you or force you to. What I’d like to know is how these ‘Christians’ manage to conveniently ignore the numerous times Jesus warned against hell as a real possibility.

 

[Mikefitzgerald]

Hello members, I’m new ,please ignore the previous reply (I pressed the wrong button). About hell: the damned could say with some justification “I never asked to be born” Yes I know all about free will. But they were never allowed free will to make the greatest decision of all ie to be born or not. After all who would want to be born if they knew they’d be damned They were’nt told. It smacks of entrapment to me. Another thing, why must they suffer. We put criminals in jail. It may not be comfortable, but at least they are not in contant agony for ever and ever. It sounds barbaric in any world. I would say If god can’t stand the sight of them and they god, why can’t He, being just and merciful simply consign them to where they were before they were born namely oblivion. Problem solved.

 

[clem456]

Hello members, I’m new ,please ignore the previous reply (I pressed the wrong button). About hell: the damned could say with some justification “I never asked to be born” Yes I know all about free will. But they were never allowed free will to make the greatest decision of all ie to be born or not. After all who would want to be born if they knew they’d be damned They were’nt told. It smacks of entrapment to me. Another thing, why must they suffer. We put criminals in jail. It may not be comfortable, but at least they are not in contant agony for ever and ever. It sounds barbaric in any world. I would say If god can’t stand the sight of them and they god, why can’t He, being just and merciful simply consign them to where they were before they were born namely oblivion. Problem solved.

Life is a gift. To wish you were never born is to reject the gift. “It is better that I do not exist”. It’s throwing the gift back at God.

 

[glendab]

Hello Clem.

Life is a gift. To wish you were never born is to reject the gift. “It is better that I do not exist”. It’s throwing the gift back at God.

Yes this is so true, but it gives you some insight into the depths of despair some folks experience in their lives. That is what the stressors of life can do to the mind and there are those whose depression is so deep they actually do despair of life. Yeah they get that bad.

Glenda