Why the silliness in the Mass?

[Presbyterian20]

Actually Orthodox Presbyterian churches do not usually have choirs. Congregational singing. In my church hymns typically from the 16th, and 17th century. Some older and some newer.

 

[grasscutter]

I appreciate your sensitivity to those peoples’ humanity, and I am not the one who called it “clown car music”. But if I painted a painting (it would be terrible) does the fact that I am a child of God make it a good painting? Would it please you for that reason alone? No, it would not. You might appreciate my making an effort, but my painting itself would not be pleasing to you, and I could not reasonably expect you to like it just because of my motivations in doing it. And if it irritated your family and guests and even yourself to have to look at my painting on your wall, would you hang it there even so, particularly if you didn’t know me from Adam?

I don’t think you would.

Thank you for responding. That was my point - someone’s efforts (however inadequate to us discerning human beings) may be beautiful in the sight of God by the intention that one of his children brought to the endeavour. And since He created all of us in His Image, we can’t presume to know what pleases Him.

Hopefully, it goes without saying that I don’t mean any offensive or profane. It’s only since participating on CAF that it ever occurred to me that I would have to make such disclaimers!

 

[Presbyterian20]

God wants you to laugh, though he doesn’t mind a little kvetching here and there. Be a fool for Christ! Revel in the silliness!

Just a note. Guitars may make the Protestant church weak, but they really don’t have that power over the Catholic Church.

I do not share your optimism about the guitars bit, but furthermore, there is not to be silliness in the church. The Lord speaks to us in worship, its not to be taken lightly. God is not my buddy, he is not my pal, he is my heavenly father. It is a serious, joyous, but serious thing.

 

[Presbyterian20]

“Silly?” By who’s definition?

“Hippie?” It seems like I only see the word “hippie” (and "liberal’) used the way you have as a means to demean something.

You are correct. Perhaps, my word choice could have been more prudent.

 

[TrueLight]

Now something to offend everyone. I’m not suggesting this should be played in a Catholic church. But you know, when you grow up in the mountains and have heard the singing and instrumentation coming out of some hollow, or near some brush arbor fundamentalist revival, or something, you kind of have a spot in your heart for this kind of thing.

Not a month ago, a deep country hillbilly with whom I used to drink a beer now and then under the trees with other hillbillies and swap stories, died. He was buried in a country cemetery under ancient cedar trees that old settlers used to plant in lieu of monuments to mark graves. Confederate and union soldiers are buried under some of those trees.

And some country preacher gave a sermon. Not enlightened. Terrible English, but heartfelt. And music was played; this very song.

I guess you had to be born here (Ozarks) to appreciate things like this. Or in the Smokies or the southern Appalachians.

youtube.com/watch?v=XAAhWcs9sDE&feature=related

Singing along

Ah… songs of my youth.

 

[Presbyterian20]

If I may throw in my two cents for the reading pleasure of the OP… The music (and also the quality thereof) does and will vary greatly on the parish, pastor, music director, and sometimes even the preference of the parishoners. The Catholic Church is NOT a democracy, but some pastors like to give the parishoners a large voice in some of the ‘details,’ if you will. A happy parish usually has a large degree of involvment from the lay people; and since the Mass is very structured, the lay peoples’ fingerprints can most often be found on the music (within reason).

When I was a young boy in my home parish, the 11:30 Mass had the “folk band” playing various songs that were found in the music book. The 7:00, 8:30, and 10:00 Masses did not have this band playing and had much more tradtitional music.

Maybe this parish doesn’t have an accomplished organ player, or the priest and music director prefer what they think is a more “hip” approach. Could be anything…

If you prefer a more musically traditional Mass, try going at a different time of day, or try a different parish. The Order of the Mass is the same at all parishes, but I think you will find some variation in the music.

As an added bonus, you will get to hear different homilies from the priests at parishes you visit. Each priest has a different ‘teaching style’ and that in itself may be a good reason to look at some different parishes.

Good hunting!

Well, I know your point is well taken. Not all Orthodox Presbyterian Churches employ exactly the same amount of traditionalism. There is a basic standard, like corporate confession of sin is a must, but there is also variety.

 

[MarkInOregon]

I appreciate your sensitivity to those peoples’ humanity, and I am not the one who called it “clown car music”. But if I painted a painting (it would be terrible) does the fact that I am a child of God make it a good painting? Would it please you for that reason alone? No, it would not. You might appreciate my making an effort, but my painting itself would not be pleasing to you, and I could not reasonably expect you to like it just because of my motivations in doing it. And if it irritated your family and guests and even yourself to have to look at my painting on your wall, would you hang it there even so, particularly if you didn’t know me from Adam?

I don’t think you would.

You lost me on the last half of your post (I am not that sharp so it is no surprise). Could you expect me not to denegrate you because I don’t like you painting? Could you expect me to be civil and not make snide or nasty comments about you and your painting simply because I don’t like it? If I didn’t like the painting I wouldn’t buy it or put it up, but what I wouldn’t do is call you names and refer to it in a derogatory way. I might tell people I didn’t care for it–that it was not to my taste.

Our tastes in music–what we consider good or bad–is subjective. Just as much modern music is dreadful–so are many of the old hymns. Many are not only deadful but often unsingable. It seems petty to me for people to call names. For every person at a church who finds the music objectionable you will find a person who doesn’t. Why do so many people feel that God only approves of their way or their tastes and anything not meeting with their approval is unholy, unwothy, from the devil and offensive to God? Can’t they simply say they don’t like that music? I guess I just feel it should be about Jesus and giving him glory and not about my tastes and desires.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[grasscutter]

You lost me on the last half of your post (I am not that sharp so it is no surprise). Could you expect me not to denegrate you because I don’t like you painting? Could you expect me to be civil and not make snide or nasty comments about you and your painting simply because I don’t like it? If I didn’t like the painting I wouldn’t buy it or put it up, but what I wouldn’t do is call you names and refer to it in a derogatory way. I might tell people I didn’t care for it–that it was not to my taste.

Our tastes in music–what we consider good or bad–is subjective. Just as much modern music is dreadful–so are many of the old hymns. Many are not only deadful but often unsingable. It seems petty to me for people to call names. For every person at a church who finds the music objectionable you will find a person who doesn’t. Why do so many people feel that God only approves of their way or their tastes and anything not meeting with their approval is unholy, unwothy, from the devil and offensive to God? Can’t they simply say they don’t like that music? I guess I just feel it should be about Jesus and giving him glory and not about my tastes and desires.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

You said it so much better than I was able to!

 

[grasscutter]

I do not share your optimism about the guitars bit, but furthermore, there is not to be silliness in the church. The Lord speaks to us in worship, its not to be taken lightly. God is not my buddy, he is not my pal, he is my heavenly father. It is a serious, joyous, but serious thing.

I’m relieved and glad that we both (and countless others) love our Lord very much. May we grow in God’s love for us. Through Christ our Lord, amen.

 

[triumphguy]

Thank you for responding. That was my point - someone’s efforts (however inadequate to us discerning human beings) may be beautiful in the sight of God by the intention that one of his children brought to the endeavour. And since He created all of us in His Image, we can’t presume to know what pleases Him.

Hopefully, it goes without saying that I don’t mean any offensive or profane. It’s only since participating on CAF that it ever occurred to me that I would have to make such disclaimers!

Which is precisely why we don’t use CDs, MP3s etc to provide perfect music at Mass.

Music ministry in a parish is EXACTLY the same as any other parish based ministry, in that it relies on the skills and talents of those in the Parish!

Nemo dat quod non habet

You can’t give what you haven’ got - it applies to all ministry in the parish: from music ministry, pastoral ministry, catechetics, to the priest.

Not every priest is a great homilist, or confessor, or very pastoral. It doesn’t matter, because what the priest can do is bring the people into the heart of the Eucharistic mystery despite his failings as a person.

In lay ministry we do our best also.

Bottom line:

Unless you are willing to offer to help with music ministry in your parish - and your parish should be the local parish, not one you prefer - then you don’t really have a right to complain about the music - or even to offer an opinion!

Same goes with all other parish ministries.

Put up or shut up.

That’s my :twocents:!

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I haven’t been to one Latin mass with a musician who “don’t care”. There are different levels of talent, but I think those who hire musicians for the Latin mass do they best that they can to hire people who give it their best…

I would not agree those are just as bad as guitar masses.

The local EF near you may have hired musicians, but many (most?) ordinary parishes don’t. If the musicians are volunteers, or those working for love (cause the money isn’t enough to live on), than we should be grateful for their efforts.

However, Whatever the pay, whatever the music quality, I agree with Tim that nothing can compare to having the Real Presence of Christ in our midst.

 

[jmcrae]

I haven’t been to one Latin mass with a musician who “don’t care”. There are different levels of talent, but I think those who hire musicians for the Latin mass do they best that they can to hire people who give it their best…

I would not agree those are just as bad as guitar masses.

Most parishes rely on volunteers who actually attend the parish, to provide the music. If the only person who steps forward is a teenager with a guitar, then guess what, it’s going to be guitar music at Mass, for that parish. If people don’t like it, then they need to step up and offer their talents, rather than sit in the cheap seats and complain.

 

[clem456]

Yet another thread exalting individual opinions and personal tastes in liturgy, at the expense of what the Church allows and does practice. Satan dances while Catholics devour one another.

 

[Lochias]

Most parishes rely on volunteers who actually attend the parish, to provide the music. If the only person who steps forward is a teenager with a guitar, then guess what, it’s going to be guitar music at Mass, for that parish. If people don’t like it, then they need to step up and offer their talents, rather than sit in the cheap seats and complain.

This.

 

[pnewton]

I do not share your optimism about the guitars bit, but furthermore, there is not to be silliness in the church…

Repeat of rhetoric does not make it more true. Your use of that word is a judgment. Your statement that there is not to be silliness is circular logic, relying on your own judgement to condemn something you deem silly. In the Catholic Church, we have an authority structure. No one gets to decide for themselves where the Church has become too silly any more than we get self-interpretation of the Bible. Perhaps what I see here is a basic mind-set difference with one who uses their own opinion as a measure to judge others.

 

[pnewton]

My thoughts exactly. I am sure modernized mass also tends to be a mostly American trend.

Do you have any experience attending Mass elsewhere? We have had several priests from South America and Africa. The ones I have discussed this with mention an even greater acculturation in their country.

Interestingly enough, the classic example of modern music, “Kum Ba Yay,” is in Gullah. If we were to sing a Latin equivalent song, it would be “Veni, Sancti Spiritu.” The idea of invoking the presence of God is not really very modern.

 

[Irishgal49]

This. I go to a very non-traditional parish sometimes, to a more traditional/orthodox one at other times. I much prefer the more traditional one, but my husband likes the less orthodox (not surprising). In fact, the very best Mass for me is the daily Mass at the orthodox parish. There is NO music (which I find distracting and superfluous most of the time, if not annoying) and the focus is on the elements of the Mass itself. I frequently wish we could substitute 2 weekday Masses for the Sunday Mass.

I love your analogy of the heavy velvet cloak! Protestant = warm fuzzy jacket (Baptists maybe even a mink coat? LOL); Traditional Catholic parish = heavy velvet cloak (lined in satin); Modern/Liberal Catholic parish = windbreaker! That’s just great.

We more traditional Catholics love our “bells and smells!” And more traditional music.

I’m not sure if it’s my bipolar disorder or what but I go to both. On Saturday vigil I attend a very contemporary Mass. The priest has been in ministry for 35 years and his homilies touch my heart in a way that will often move me to tears. On Sunday I attend a very traditional Mass with organ music. I love the people but don’t really feel as much connection with the homily. But that’s OK, I’m there to experience Jesus and that’s all that really matters. If you look around you can find the Mass that speaks to you. I asked a priest once about where to attend and he said, “God is not interested in micro-managing your Sunday. Go where you are being fed.”

 

[Irishgal49]

Which is precisely why we don’t use CDs, MP3s etc to provide perfect music at Mass.

Bottom line:

Unless you are willing to offer to help with music ministry in your parish - and your parish should be the local parish, not one you prefer - then you don’t really have a right to complain about the music - or even to offer an opinion!

Same goes with all other parish ministries.

Put up or shut up.

That’s my :twocents:!

I drive an hour to the parish I attend. It’s worth it.

 

[Irishgal49]

Organ music makes me feel like I’m at a funeral…

I agree. I remember roller skating to organ music, but the church I attend on Sundays plays it. To each their own. The most beautiful Mass I recall was Christmas Eve with a harpist, talk about Wowing me, and I’m usually pretty contemporary in my taste but that was so beautiful.

 

[Irishgal49]

It sort of depends on the quality of the music and the situation.

It also depends on the intent of the musicians. It is important for musicians to ask themselves what is their intent. Is the intent to irritate and antagonize other parishioners or is the intent to give their best to God?

In our little mission church our musicians share Sundays. We alternate with a Ordinary Latin Mass, Guitar Mass, and a regular rather serious choir. Each group does their best to please God. We work with what we have. The congregation supports all of the musicians.

P.S. Poorly done Latin Mass by musicians that don’t care is just as bad as poorly done defiant guitar masses.

I will say this,

I used to detest guitars. I did…and I went to a divorce support group and decided I wanted to attend this huge church for Mass on a Saturday afternoon. I saw no organ and a “band” set up off to the side. I’m already starting in with my “attitude”. I do like contemporary Christian music and my favorite song is “Grace Like Rain” which is a re-working of Amazing Grace. As I’m sitting there, I’d been really banged up at a former church and feeling so horrible about the failure of my marriage and hating myself.

As the music started guess what they sang? “Grace Like Rain”…and that’s what my tears were, rain…I cried my eyes out–that song really spoke to me and I’ve learned a huge lesson about judging the music. God will speak…we just need to shut our beaks and turn off our judgement and listen.