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ChainBreaker
Guest
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!Patriots 28
Seahawks 24
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blase6
Guest
I only know this: I think, see a two-dimensional image, feel according to the shape of a body I associate with myself, hear, taste, smell. Apart from these things which I know, I do not know. I can only infer by studying what I sense and drawing conclusions. I donāt know if my conclusions are correct or not, but I am more compelled to keep them when I find support in what I sense.
The world that I see within my own perception, I know for sure. But that tells me very little about what is certainly true. The idea of a world apart from my perception, which exists even if no one is sensing it; that is something I cannot know.
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ChainBreaker
Guest
$ 200,000 down the drain.NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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Peter_Plato
Guest
And your reputation as the āGreatest philosopher who has ever lived,ā has taken quite a hit, as well.$ 200,000 down the drain.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
Neither can you KNOW that what you perceive is what you think it to be. Therefore, you know nothing, not even what you perceive.
Now make a case that you do, in fact, know what you perceive. What, exactly, does it mean to āknowā anything at all, except by equating āknowā with āperceiveā by fiat.
What you are claiming is that āknowingā something means simply the same as āperceivingā it. How do you KNOW that?
Proof please!
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ChainBreaker
Guest
That is whatās great about philosophy. Reputation as regards to character has nothing to do with it. If Hitler says that 2 + 2 = 4, then i have to agree with him despite the fact that he tortured and murder Jewish people.
Yes; i just blew 200,000 dollars, and i borrowed that money from a mafia king pin.
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blase6
Guest
By know I mean āexperience as certainly trueā. It can be a sensory or mental experience. āCertainā means that the opposite fact is impossible. With my definitions my arguments are coherent.
In the case of spiritual truths about God, life after death, etc. a belief based on reasonable evidence is not satisfactory. I demand certain knowledge, and I am frustrated because I cannot find it.
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yppop
Guest
Find the nearest wall, put on a helmet, put your head down then run as fast as you can into the wall. You will know for certain that there is something outside of yourself. The pain is in your mind. But donāt worry about it, it is only a perception.
Yppop
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Aloysium
Guest
I take it you are not married.
You will demand of your beloved??!!!
I foresee that your waiting will burn away all your frustrations.
Then in purity and humility you may see your Beloved reveal Himself.
Weāre talking about Love here.
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blase6
Guest
Nope, this only works on people who are less devoted to rationality.
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blase6
Guest
I demand to know if āmy belovedā exists or not with absolute certainty. I donāt. So I am frustrated, locked inside myself not knowing certainly if there is anything apart from my own perception.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
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blase6
Guest
Sorry, quoting the Bible doesnāt help.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
No, but reading it might.
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inocente
Guest
It may be closer to home - simple peer pressure. The forum is blessed with some senior posters who cry heretic at anything they donāt like, and this may discourage those with minority views until one brave fellow gives others the courage to speak out.
Or not, just speculating here.
Descartes also imagines he may be deceived, and tries to find one a priori thing he is certain couldnāt be a deception, to provide the sound base on which to build his philosophy, and produces his cogito. Although you may well argue even that involves an assumption.
Newton fought against that philosophy (āI contrive no hypothesesā) - where we believe we canāt know something for certain, we should embrace the uncertainty and go with what seems most self-evident until weāre proved wrong. Thatās perhaps the most basic philosophy there is. Itās what keeps animals and primitive peoples alive (they donāt have the luxury to ponder whether the elephant bearing down on them is real or a deception). That pragmatism is also a basis of modern science. Or scientistic heresy of course, according to taste.
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
You may be right. I thought there might be somehing going on in the intellectual world somewhere. Or maybe we can blame it on a renewed interest in Descartes and Newton.It may be closer to home - simple peer pressure. The forum is blessed with some senior posters who cry heretic at anything they donāt like, and this may discourage those with minority views until one brave fellow gives others the courage to speak out.
Or not, just speculating here.
Linus2nd
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inocente
Guest
Well, truth is, we all got asked to mess with your head.You may be right. I thought there might be somehing going on in the intellectual world somewhere. Or maybe we can blame it on a renewed interest in Descartes and Newton.
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blase6
Guest
Reading a book? Iāve read lots of books. They are often less convincing than what I sense directly.
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yppop
Guest
Here is a rational thought:
Consider an apple sitting on a table: We see a smooth, round, red object, a texture, a form, and a color. However, the apple consists of molecules and atoms; molecules and atoms are made up of elements such as carbon and oxygen; carbon and oxygen are made up of protons, neutrons and electrons; and protons and neutrons are made up of quarks. But we donāt see that hierarchy of matter; we see a smooth three dimensional red form that we recognize as an apple. What we really see is the light that is reflected from the skin molecules of the apple in the form of photons of a particular energy (wavelength). When light from the apple enters our eyes the photons are focused by the lens on the retina at the back of the eye where neurons are excited and send electric impulses along peripheral nerves to the various parts of the brain. In the brain, specific groups of neuronal circuits are excited and we āseeā an image of the smooth, three dimensional, red, form that we recognize as an apple. The question is: which is real, the configuration of molecules sitting on the table, the photons traveling through space, or the image of a smooth 3-D red object formed in the mind? Of course, all three phenomena exist and are therefore real. It is evident that these three aspects of reality, although existing in radically different ways, are intimately connected. The configuration of quarks and electrons exist or there would not be a stream of photons. The ordered arrangement of photons is manifested as the form of the apple, but not the redness. Objective reality is essentially nothing but forms; and forms are nothing more than orderly configurations of quarks, electrons, and photonsā¦
Science has shown us that the redness doesnāt inhere in the apple; but rather is associated with the nature (wave length) of the photons reflected from the skin of the apple. However, we know that the photons are not red, nor does the redness arise in the eye, which brings us to the neurons in the brain. Obviously the redness of the apple is created somewhere in the mind. The unresolved question is: how is the redness of the apple actualized, by which I mean brought into reality. No one knows; all we can say for certain is that redness is real, but real in a different sort of way than the configuration of molecules that occupy a specific segment of space and that we identify as the āformā of the apple. The redness, on the other hand, is formless and resides in the mind. The image created by the brain is referred to as subjective reality. We conclude that both the molecular configuration, the stream of photons, and the image it creates within oneās mind are real. In other words the apple exists at two levels of reality: the objective and the subjective. Since objective reality is nothing but form; it is subjective reality that contains the kaleidoscope of sensations that creates the world as we experience it, one of Godās many gifts.
Were you to pick up the apple and look at it, you would be compelled to conclude that, in a sense, the apple and your hand constituted a single configuration of quarks and electrons and therefore if your hand is real so too must the apple be real. If you still contend that the apple is merely a subjective object in your mind and not objectively real, then so too must your hand not be objectively real. An unreal hand must lead to an unreal brain so if the apple doesnāt exist subjectively, neither does your brain. Now that conclusion may seem insulting, but believe it is not because if you believe reality can be reduced to solipsism, and you are not certain that I exist except in your mind so you must be having a discussion with yourself.
Yppop
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Aloysium
Guest
Reading your reply, I am frustrated too, but I will try again.
First of all, in this business there is no demanding.
God is Love.
To know God is to know about giving of oneself.
One gives of what has been given to oneself, to those who are other.
It is about surrender - surrendering of oneself to God.
If you want to know the Truth, you will surrender your mind to the Truth.
One canāt keep going on trying to piece together what is nonsense and expect the Truth.
You do not know God, ergo your premises are wrong.
I would say that God is calling you and you are frustrated because your understanding of the world prevents you from knowing Him.
He is telling you, you are all caught up in your own self - hence all you get are bizarre solipsistic ideas.
Seriously, what are you thinking? Do you work? go to the store? speak to people? What do you think is going on here right now?
Again, it is all about love.
Read the Bible. Pray. Do good works. Attend Masss. Participate in the sacraments.
Do you spend time praying and in contemplation of the Blessed Sacrament? Try it; it works.
Coming to know God isnāt like mathematics, solving some problem, memorizing the facts or proofs.
It comes about hrough participation in His Church; this is how you will know Him.
Pray - speak to Him.
Thatās the easy way.
Donāt worry. If He continues to call and you are interested in finding God, ultimately, your frustration will mount and burn out all that is not love, beauty and truth.
:twocents:
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