Why the Tridentine rite has no abuses

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The Mass I attend is an one and half hours…I don’t even know I’m there a hour and half, because of God’s presence. I totally feel immersed in God’s grace and in Heaven praising God with the Angels and Saints.

I would disagree there is abuse where the Tridentine Mass is said. My experience is people that attend are totally committed, 100% and are very well read. We have Stations of the Cross on Friday, the Church is packed out. You wouldn’t see that at a Church where the Norvus Ordo is being said. I attended even First Fridays Reparation at the last Parish, maybe two from our Parish would show, I’ll stretch it to 10 all the other people were spanish and were from different Parishes a total of about 20 people.
Man, you need to get out more!:cool:

There is standing room only at our Parish if you don’t get there on time…that would be a half hour before Mass!
The confession line wraps down one entire side of Church and two priest are hearing them before every Mass.

We have the rosary and stations of the Cross…but no TLM…So I do not think that the TLM is the magic ingredient…:rolleyes:
 
Honestly, it seems if one were truly interested in the purity of the Faith, they would prefer Greek over Latin.
Well, we did leave a little of it in the TLM. Actually it’s an integral part of the first part of the Mass and it’s beautiful too. Everyone sings that part.
 
This is a simpler explanation than it doesn’t lend itself to abuse. My father-in-law can still say parts of the Latin Mass lightening fast because of the races they used to have to see who could say it the fastest. It is only reasonable that the more disrespectful priest would have fled to the new Mass when it came out and used the liturgy as their own playground.
Prior to VII, our parish had seven Sunday Masses (6,7,8,9,10,11:15,and 12:15) and four weekday Masses (6:30,7,7:30,8:00). Didn’t realize then that I (along with the standing-room crowd) were watching the Indy 500. 🙂
 
Your first point would seem to contradict your second point.

So would most traditionalists be ok with a translation of the Tridentine Mass into the vernacular language?
The Anglicans celebrate the Tridentine “Mass” in a very beautiful “Thou” and “Thee” English. I don’t think I would be too comfortable there, though.
 
The Anglicans celebrate the Tridentine “Mass” in a very beautiful “Thou” and “Thee” English. I don’t think I would be too comfortable there, though.
Its not the Tridentine Mass. It is the Anglicans Book of Common Prayer.

There is an Anglican Use parish here in Houston. That is a Catholic parish that uses the Anglican Use provision. It is nice but a lot more kneeling than in the Tridentine or the current Mass.
 
One word of caution: translations differ a lot from each other and from the original as well. E.g. doesn’t English have, “and also with you,” for, “et cum spiritu tuo,” which in reality means, “and with your spirit?” I’ve noticed more when comparing Polish, English and Latin.
Here’s a nice “Polish” Mass for you produced by UnaVoce.

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5613244572796445033

The music is incredible.

By the way, did you know the Polish Novus Ordo actually translates the “pro multis” correctly?
 
I know some people seem to view the phrase Latin is a dead language as a negative but it really fits the Church quite well. Latin doesn’t develop colloquilisms or change meaning over time. Because it is not spoken (dead, in a sense), it doesn’t change and it’s meaning is always consistent just like the Church. It’s really perfect for the Church.
Good Point!
 
Latin is the language of Angels…The Saints talk about this. Also Father Amorth, Exorcist in Rome says Satan hates the latin language. When he speaks to the demon in Latin, the demon **has to **respond in Latin. Second it is not the language that traditionalist have a disagreement with it is the rite.
I don’t think a language invented by PAGAN Rome was adopted by the angels of God.

The Latin language is beautiful…but there is nothing inherently holy or sacred about it. It just happens that it is old and a lot of religious texts have been written in Latin.

Also, why would black Masses be said in Latin if Satan hates the Latin language?
 
I just want to poke a hole in an invalid argument I see repeated over and over again here.

Lots of abuses in liturgy today. Yes. Where are they happening? In the Mass celebrated according to the current missal. Hm, correlation between the “NO” and abuses. Right. So, obviously, the “NO” somehow causes/encourages/allows for abuses, whereas the Tridentine rite, according to some Papal magic, does not.

Please. There’s nothing under heaven that can’t be abused by sin. I wasn’t alive back then, but maybe somebody from the the glory days can testify that liturgical abuse wasn’t invented by Vatican II.

I don’t care how precise the Latin language is–the current rite is written in Latin, too. Between the 2002 missal and Redemptionis Sacramentum, there really aren’t any more glaring ambiguities to speak of. If someone desires to celebrate the current rite of the Mass without abuses, it is exceedingly easy for them to do so (unless the people have been conditioned to be intolerant of a correct liturgy).

Anyway, why is the Tridentine Mass today so pristine and free of abuse? Because almost by definition, nobody who attends or conducts a Tridentine Mass supports liturgical abuse.

It’s as easy as that. It has nothing to do with some mysterious sort of “built in abuse-protectors” that the Tridentine rite has and the Vatican rite doesn’t. The “abuse protectors” are the priests who celebrate it and the people who attend it.
I’d have to say there is a built in abuse protector.

If you’ve read “Seminary Boy” by John Cornwell (a liberal Catholic) he mentions the rigidness of the Tridentine Mass when it comes to the liturgy. For example, he recalls the event when a parishoner left the parish because the priest wouldnt wear the birreta.

The fact that the Mass looked the same everywhere made it waaaay easier to spot liturgical abuse. I know for certain that if my Priest changed a bit of the Mass, even the most miniscule detail, it would throw myself and all the altar boys off at the same time.

It was one constant flow, without any pauses for lectors to get up to read, or cantors to drag themselves across the sanctuary. Any disturbance in that flow would result in an instant "liturgical innovation’ warning.

Also, the Traditional Missal left very little room for abuse. It goes through great detail on how the priest should even hold the host, how low he should bow, etc. etc.

In fact, any well read Traditionalist will know that there are several levels of ‘bowing low’.

In my Missal…there is

“profoundly bowing low”
“slightly bowing”
“inclining the head”
“bowing in deep humility”
“bowing in deep contrition”

All with their appropriate angels. Im surprised the Missal doesnt go ahead and illustrate it in percise degrees.

Such attention to detail really lowers the chance of liturgical abuse. While in the Novus Ordo Mass…we even have three versions of the introductory prayer among other chunks of the Mass that can be moved around at the priests discretion.

So the lack of uniformity results in parishoners attending the Mass, and assuming that no matter what happens at the altar its somehow okay or allowed.

While in the TLM, any slight change WILL lead to speculation.
 
I don’t think a language invented by PAGAN Rome was adopted by the angels of God.

The Latin language is beautiful…but there is nothing inherently holy or sacred about it. It just happens that it is old and a lot of religious texts have been written in Latin.

Also, why would black Masses be said in Latin if Satan hates the Latin language?
If the chief exorcist of Vatican City says that Latin is the language the devil hates…im going to take his word for it.
 
Man, you need to get out more!:cool:

There is standing room only at our Parish if you don’t get there on time…that would be a half hour before Mass!
The confession line wraps down one entire side of Church and two priest are hearing them before every Mass.

We have the rosary and stations of the Cross…but no TLM…So I do not think that the TLM is the magic ingredient…:rolleyes:
Sounds like you have a wonderful parish and priests. Confession before every Mass I’m impressed. I have been out , 30 years in several different states all attending NO Masses. I pray I never have to subject myself, my soul, spirituality and faith to it again. I was at the point, seriously of leaving the church permanently. Even at the old parish, I had one man tell me, he would walk in Adoration and tell Christ, I hate your Church, but I am here for you. That is horriable, sad.

I’m glad for you and your parish, but it hasn’t been the case for some of us.
 
Has the Church ever defined this as doctrine? I know it was the language of Nero and Caligula. Maybe they learned it from angels?
Well, English was the language of Henry VIII, Archbishop Cranmer and others. Maybe that’s why the Council of Trent prohibited the vernacular in the Mass?

Come to think of it, didn’t Vatican II vote to retain Latin in the liturgy, as maybe a sign of unity, if not tradition and universality?
 
I don’t think a language invented by PAGAN Rome was adopted by the angels of God.

The Latin language is beautiful…but there is nothing inherently holy or sacred about it. It just happens that it is old and a lot of religious texts have been written in Latin.

Also, why would black Masses be said in Latin if Satan hates the Latin language?
Have you attended black Masses?
 
Its not the Tridentine Mass. It is the Anglicans Book of Common Prayer.

There is an Anglican Use parish here in Houston. That is a Catholic parish that uses the Anglican Use provision. It is nice but a lot more kneeling than in the Tridentine or the current Mass.
You are right, it is the Anglicans Book of Common Prayer. But it does do a very nice job of simulating the TLM.

I haven’t read the Anglican Use in a long time, but I do remember finding it very disappointing.
 
Well, English was the language of Henry VIII, Archbishop Cranmer and others. Maybe that’s why the Council of Trent prohibited the vernacular in the Mass?

Come to think of it, didn’t Vatican II vote to retain Latin in the liturgy, as maybe a sign of unity, if not tradition and universality?
Yes they did, I was looking for that earlier. In my research, I’ll try and remember and get it for you.

An old man walks into the University Offices and says “I’d like to enrol for a Latin course.”
The Dean looks at him and asks rather coyly, “How old are you, Sir?”
“Ninety-three” is the reply.
“Then why do you want to learn Latin, at your time in life?”
“Well” the man explains “I realize I haven’t got long for this world, but if I go to Heaven I’d like to be able to speak to God and the Angels in their own language, and I’d feel more comfortable if I knew some Latin.”
The Dean thinks, and then asks “But what if you don’t go to Heaven but go to — you know — the other place?”
"That’s all right, I can already speak American.😛
 
I also get the impression that Pope John XXIII liked Latin quite a bit, but I don’t think he worshipped it above Christ even though his language regarding it in Veterum Sapientia is as strong as any Traditionalist’s:

The nature of Latin

Of its very nature Latin is most suitable for promoting every form of culture among peoples. It gives rise to no jealousies. It does not favor any one nation, but presents itself with equal impartiality to all and is equally acceptable to all.

Nor must we overlook the characteristic nobility of Latin’s formal structure. Its “concise, varied and harmonious style, full of majesty and dignity” makes for singular clarity and impressiveness of expression.

I agree with your statement: “Of its very nature Latin is most suitable for promoting every form of culture among peoples. It gives rise to no jealousies. It does not favor any one nation, but presents itself with equal impartiality to all and is equally acceptable to all.”

It was my observation during the time that there was a great movement in the US, in particular, to change the Mass from Latin to the vernacular, that underlying the movement to do that was the desire to usurp the Papal authority and basically say: if we don’t like what the Church says, we can do it our own way…at one time that would have been treated differently, but instead the Church caved to a great extent to popular opinion. Americans didn’t agree with the Church’s stand on abortion, priestly celibacy, women in the priesthood and other subject, and many simply felt they didn’t need to follow the Pope’s direction on those issues. Language evolves in meaning if it does not get set in concrete. Latin was the Church’s concrete…now there are cute little translations and, politically correct translations, of the Bible, the Mass and pretty much everything else. OF COURSE " et cum spiritu tuo" means “and with your spirit”…but unless you equate your “spirit” with yourself, “and also with you” has a different flavor…less religious sounding.
 
I don’t think a language invented by PAGAN Rome was adopted by the angels of God.

The Latin language is beautiful…but there is nothing inherently holy or sacred about it. It just happens that it is old and a lot of religious texts have been written in Latin.

Also, why would black Masses be said in Latin if Satan hates the Latin language?
I heard the black Mass is a ritual where it is said in Latin backwards.

Oh, details, details, details…
 
If the chief exorcist of Vatican City says that Latin is the language the devil hates…im going to take his word for it.
You need to be very careful with statements like this. Believing what an exorcist says could very well lead some to believe that you accept the existence of Lucifer and Demons:bigyikes:

As is normally pointed out by most catechists these days, all right thinking Catholics should see theseconcepts as coming from a Pre Vatican II mentality and should thus be avoided. Belief in Lucifer as a fallen angel is a primitive notion according to these people and serves no useful purpose whatsoever.

Actually I guess the only folks who can get away with a belief in the existance of Lucifer, Demons Hell and Purgatory are old timers like me who have no fear of and are in fact proud to carry the label of
**
ROMAN CATHOLIC PRE VATICAN II MINDED INDIVIDUAL **
 
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