Why the Trinity?

[Counterpoint]

Counterpoint:

I agree that “love” entails a “lover” and a “beloved,” and that the lover also qualify as the beloved and vice versa. But I only see two persons here, not three. Therefore, you have rationally established a bi-personal threesome, not a tri-personal threesome.

You are overlooking part of my response. I explained in my posts that the person of the Holy Spirit comes from both the Father and the Son and is Love and gives Love as they are and do to and through him. The Holy Spirit is the Love of the Father and the Son and is a Person as well. I can’t make it any plainer than that, I’m afraid.

Just for the sake of clarity. Are you arguing that both the Father and the Son somehow confer personhood on the Holy Spirit?

 

[oldburkes]

You can’t philosophically justify willing the good of another, which is LOVE, if you don’t philosophically acknowledge the fact that our Creator created that LOVE from His LOVE, the Holy Spirit, brought about by the LOVE that exists for another, The Son.

God, simply loving us, His creation, would have overwhelmed us, so there had to be a Divine Being to share it with, and thus a spirit to communicate it to us in a way we could understand.

 

[Counterpoint]

I don’t want to overly distract from a philosophical discussion of the Trinity, I just have to point out that we can in fact articulate a reason to believe that God is Triune that is rational and reasonable and good, but is not purely philosophical (that is, it does reference revelation), namely: reason has shown that this purported revealation is true, and it says that God is Triune, therefore God is Triune.

Here’s the problem. The Muslim will argue that “revelation” has clearly informed “reason” that God is not triune, that Jesus is not God incarnate, and that Jesus himself “will deny having ever claimed divinity at the Last Judgment.”

“According to the Quran, Jesus, although appearing to have been crucified, was not killed by crucifixion or by any other means; instead, “God raised him unto Himself”. Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered a Muslim (i.e., one who submits to the will of God), as he preached that his followers should adopt the “straight path” as commanded by God. Islam rejects the Trinitarian Christian view that Jesus was God incarnate or the son of God, that he was ever crucified or resurrected, or that he ever atoned for the sins of mankind. The Quran says that Jesus himself never claimed any of these things, and it furthermore indicates that Jesus will deny having ever claimed divinity at the Last Judgment, and God will vindicate him.[5]” (source: Wikipedia: Jesus in Islam)

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Here’s the problem with your analogy. The Christian God is a “single-parent” family.

“We” can do better than that.

I have yet to find anyone who could.

You cannot justify it unless you can rationally justify it. Either that, or you have to justify it by rationally justifying blind faith. (Those are your only options here.)

Fortunately you are not the arbeiter of Truth. It is perfectly rational to trust that God is telling the truth. Whether you accept that or not is immaterial. God gives light to all, but not all comprehend the light.( John 1 ).

Linus2nd

 

[Counterpoint]

I have yet to find anyone who could.

Della has done a fairly good job thus far. By the way, “reason” lead my to the same argument she is employing.)

Counterpoint:

You cannot justify it unless you can rationally justify it. Either that, or you have to justify it by rationally justifying blind faith. (Those are your only options here.)

Fortunately you are not the arbeiter of Truth. It is perfectly rational to trust that God is telling the truth. Whether you accept that or not is immaterial. God gives light to all, but not all comprehend the light.( John 1 ).

It’s perfectly reasonable to believe that the Spirit reveals itself through reason (a.k.a. the “Logos”).

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Della has done a fairly good job thus far. By the way, “reason” lead my to the same argument she is employing.)

It’s perfectly reasonable to believe that the Spirit reveals itself through reason (a.k.a. the “Logos”).

Sorry I have yet to follow Della’s posts here. Of course the Spirit can and does reveal the truth to individuals and to the Church. But the Truth the Spirit reveals to the Church is the only knowledge we are required to adhere to. Private revelation is only for the benefit of the person to whom it is revealed, and here we have a case where the spirits must be tested. And to be accepted, they must never contadict a teaching of the Church or the Scriptures.

Linus2nd.

 

[Jaaanosik]

I find a sensible argument to be more compelling than one that is not. I’m actually a trinitarian. But my trinitarianism is based on reason…on some kind of rationale. As I see it, if we aren’t able to articulate a reason for why God should be triune, then we have no reason to believe that God is triune. It’s that simple.

So, with that in mind, I pose the following question(s): Why the Trinity? Why should we believe that God is triune? What metaphysical problem(s) does it solve?

Note: This is a philosophical forum (at least, it purports to be one). So, I am asking a philosophical question and I am expecting a philosophical response - some kind of argument that appeals to my rational sensibilities.

The Father - God outside of the spacetime
The Holy Spirit - God as “a medium” in which the spacetime exists
The Son - God inside of the spacetime

As philosophical/metaphysical as it gets

 

[hasantas]

.

Perhaps ı have no a right to say something about Trinity but inasmuch as we believe in same God than ı can tell something ı think ı have that right.

Trinity doctrine inconclusion claims one God but in different three personality! I try to hard to understand this but there are many deadlocks and dilemmas in that. There is no a valid and annonated knowledges in Gospels. But that is a very high and importand issue because faith is the highest and most importand issue in universe. God sent thousands prophets to inform Himself to people obviously but God never had mention any other divine persons except himself before Jesus and after Jesus.(İncluding Jesus)

There is one minister president in a goverment, a governor in a city, a village-headman in a village. İf there were plural ministers in a place that station can not be run in order. Look at universe you will see a great unity. Nobody want a partner in his management. So God will never permit any other

God with his all attributes and substance is divine and can not divide and seperate. God is beyond and out of time, space and all physical conditions. Because being divided is for material. The bound between God and material is “creating”. Non of material is part of God but matter is a creature which has created by power of God with of all their substance and soul if they has got. God is in nowhere but is present in evrywhere with effect of his power.

To explain trinity people usually use term of “Love”. God is love that is true but God is not just love also is/has life, grace, power, compassion and other attributes. For me grace and compassion is more importand than love. With Grace God feed all alives. A dad does not allow his son to barge in his work althoug he loves son very much. God loves all His act, creature and art. But when a human rebel against Himself he will punish him.

 

[Della]

Just for the sake of clarity. Are you arguing that both the Father and the Son somehow confer personhood on the Holy Spirit?

No, not at all. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, but they did not “make” him a person. He is an eternal person, just as the Father and the Son.

I think the problem people have understanding the Trinity is that they are thinking in human terms. It can be hard to grasp a concept that is so far above us–like ants trying to grasp the relationships of humans.

God simply is. Beyond all creation and before all creation, God is. He has revealed himself as three persons. In the creation story he says, “Let us create…” (Gn. 1:26) and "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil …{Gen. 3:22). These were internal conversations–something like one of us saying, “Come on, body, let’s get up and do” this or that. We reflect the Trinity in that we are body, mind, and spirit not merely body. We can no more say that our bodies produced our minds than we can say our spirits produced our bodies. We are one being with three dimensions.

God is more than mere human, of course. So his internal conversations are real because he really is three Persons who is one God. Jesus commanded the Apostles to go into the whole world and baptize in the name of “the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” The Church has not based its teaching on this one verse alone, of course, but the verse does support the fact that Jesus revealed God, even more explicitly than in the OT, as one God in three persons.

The Church has explained this as three persons with one being, especially noted in our creeds. And since Jesus gave the Church the authority to decide matters of faith and morals, we accept this explanation, even if we cannot fully understand it. I certainly don’t and my explanation is not definitive, but rather limited to what you requested–a philosophical definition.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Originally Posted by Counterpoint

Here’s the problem with your analogy. The Christian God is a “single-parent” family.

A single parent family need not be devoid of love,

God the Father loves God the Son; with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.

God the Son loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.

We are created in the image of God, we are asked to pray to God our Father, Does God the Father love each and every one of his children as he loves himself?

The spirit is the tricky one to define, but there is one passage translation in the New International Bible; that links the spirit and the greatest commandments…

1 Samuel 18 - 1
Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself

Can the trinity possibly hang and depend on the greatest commandments?

just some thoughts

 

[Counterpoint]

The Father - God outside of the spacetime
The Holy Spirit - God as “a medium” in which the spacetime exists
The Son - God inside of the spacetime

Interesting.

As philosophical/metaphysical as it gets

It’s a start. But it can get better.

Question:

If the Son is inside spacetime, then does this imply he has always been inside spacetime? IOW, are you arguing that the Son - the eternally begotten - is everlastingly (with no beginning and no end) in spacetime?

 

[Counterpoint]

But the Truth the Spirit reveals to the Church is the only knowledge we are required to adhere to.

How do you know that?

 

[Counterpoint]

God with his all attributes and substance is divine and can not divide and seperate…

To explain trinity people usually use term of “Love”. God is love that is true but.

Please explain what the following aphorism means:

“Love separates for the sake of union.” - Rumi

 

[Counterpoint]

No, not at all. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, but they did not “make” him a person. He is an eternal person, just as the Father and the Son.

What do you think the word “proceeds” means here?

 

[openmind77]

I find a sensible argument to be more compelling than one that is not. I’m actually a trinitarian. But my trinitarianism is based on reason…on some kind of rationale. As I see it, if we aren’t able to articulate a reason for why God should be triune, then we have no reason to believe that God is triune. It’s that simple.

So, with that in mind, I pose the following question(s): Why the Trinity? Why should we believe that God is triune? What metaphysical problem(s) does it solve?

Note: This is a philosophical forum (at least, it purports to be one). So, I am asking a philosophical question and I am expecting a philosophical response - some kind of argument that appeals to my rational sensibilities.

I know your question relates to the Christian Trinity, but I can not resist adding my 2-bits about the Hindu Trinity (I personally believe the two Trinities are exactly the same).

God is a Trinity because Spirit intrinsically has three natures:

The Nature that Creates - giving birth to a Universe or a Solar system or a planet
The Nature that Perserves/Sustains - taking care of the creation
The Nature that Destroys/Transforms - destroying the creation when it has completed its lifespan and making way for rebirth and recreation.

These three natures are embodied in the three Gods that make up the Trinity:

Shiva - The Destroyer/Transformer (the Father)
Vishnu - The Preserver/Sustainer (the Son)
Brahma - The Creator (the Holy Spirit)

I am not sure this solves any metaphysical problems. It is just the way things are. Spirit has these three distinct natures and they cannot really be combined that easily. As mentioned before these actions of Creation/Perservation/Destruction happen at many levels (Universe,Galactic,Solar Systems,Planetary and even individual civilizations and institutions)

I believe, Christianity has somewhat mixed up the roles of the three members of the Trinity (for instance, the Son is not actually responsible for the act of Creation).

(Incidentally, in Hinduism Matter is also said to have three qualities)

 

[Jaaanosik]

Interesting.

It’s a start. But it can get better.

Question:

If the Son is inside spacetime, then does this imply he has always been inside spacetime? IOW, are you arguing that the Son - the eternally begotten - is everlastingly (with no beginning and no end) in spacetime?

I know, it’s a start, it gets more complicated, we’ll go slowly…

The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are all outside of the spacetime as well.
We have no idea, no clue, no understanding, no way to comprehend it from within the spacetime how it’s possible. That’s our limitation.

 

[Della]

What do you think the word “proceeds” means here?

The Holy Spirit is of the same substance/essence/being as the Father and the Son.

 

[GaryTaylor]

What do you think the word “proceeds” means here?

Internal, intelligence and will.

strobertbellarmine.net/wilhelm_scannell_09.html

 

[Counterpoint]

I know your question relates to the Christian Trinity, but I can not resist adding my 2-bits about the Hindu Trinity (I personally believe the two Trinities are exactly the same).

They’re not the same. They may share some similarities, but there are significant differences. Buddhism also has a “trinity” doctrine known as the “trikaya” (the “three bodies” or “three personalities” of the Eternal Buddha).

God is a Trinity because Spirit intrinsically has three natures:

The Nature that Creates - giving birth to a Universe or a Solar system or a planet
The Nature that Perserves/Sustains - taking care of the creation
The Nature that Destroys/Transforms - destroying the creation when it has completed its lifespan and making way for rebirth and recreation.

These three principles (personified as Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva) are somewhat similar to the triadic dialectic (“thesis, antithesis, synthesis” or “being, nothingness, becoming”).

These three natures are embodied in the three Gods that make up the Trinity:

Shiva - The Destroyer/Transformer (the Father)
Vishnu - The Preserver/Sustainer (the Son)
Brahma - The Creator (the Holy Spirit)

I am not sure this solves any metaphysical problems. It is just the way things are.

The basic metaphysical problem is the problem of the one and the many.

 

[Counterpoint]

I know, it’s a start, it gets more complicated, we’ll go slowly…

The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are all outside of the spacetime as well.
We have no idea, no clue, no understanding, no way to comprehend it from within the spacetime how it’s possible. That’s our limitation.

I think you were onto something. There are three aspects: the transcendental aspect, the immanental aspect and the mediator, the aspect which reconciles or unites the other two aspects as one. (In Whiteheadian metaphysics (a.k.a. “process theology”), this corresponds - more or less - to the “primordial nature of God,” the “consequent nature of God,” and the “superjective nature of God.” )