Why the visible Church?

[opop]

So, I was wondering what is the reason that God founded the Catholic Church. I understand why he died and resurrected. But why leave a Church behind, with sacraments and a hierarchy? The reason I ask is that catholics don’t seem to be more saint in general than those who are not. So what is the point of a visible and structured Church if it doesn’t make us more saint? What do theologians answer to that?

 

[CatholicAMMO]

I’m not sure I understand your line of reasoning with the “Catholics don’t seem to be more sin in general than those who are not.” The Church is both the Body and Bride of Christ. It’s our choice as human beings whether or not we’ll cooperate with God to become more saintly. The Natural Law is written in all our hearts, Christian or not, so it’s not surprising that we have non-Catholic people who are moral. However, mere morality isn’t the only criteria for a holy life. The purpose of the Church as Body and Bride of Christ, is to constantly call us to holiness.

“Stay Locked, Loaded, and Ready”
http://www.wcatradio.com/fireaway.html

 

[catholic1seeks]

A visible church corresponds to human nature.

Humans are bodily, and humans gather in society. We are not single units. Paul says we make one Body, with different gifts, all for the sake of the church’s unity.

Even Christians that claim a purely spiritual church often have some forms of visible organization and structure: Bible studies, pastors, elders, teachers, etc.

You can’t escape it.

 

[phil19034]

So, I was wondering what is the reason that God founded the Catholic Church. I understand why he died and resurrected. But why leave a Church behind, with sacraments and a hierarchy? The reason I ask is that catholics don’t seem to be more saint in general than those who are not. So what is the point of a visible and structured Church if it doesn’t make us more saint? What do theologians answer to that?

Jesus left a viable Church so we would all have a definitive place to turn to to ask questions regarding faith and morals.

Jesus knew that every generation would have moral issues to wrestle. Jesus knew without a identifying a magisterium, then clergy would be free to their own thoughts, ideas, etc.

This would lead to array of different beliefs (which is common among Protestantism today). However, Jesus was all about Truth. So He wanted everyone to be able to know 100% what the true faith was. The only way to do that was to establish a visible Church. The Bible (which He didn’t leave us) would not be enough, because the scriptures are open to interpretation. However, as the Ethiopian eunuch said to St. Philip in regards to understanding the Scriptures, “How can I understand unless I have a teacher to teach me?”

The Jews had a visible hierarchy. That was never Christ’s objection to them. His issue was that they were not faithful to God’s will.

God bless

 

[opop]

Jesus left a viable Church so we would all have a definitive place to turn to to ask questions regarding faith and morals.

Jesus knew that every generation would have moral issues to wrestle, Jesus knew without a identifying a magisterium, then clergy would be free to their own thoughts, ideas, etc.

This would lead to array of different beliefs (which is common among Protestantism today). However, Jesus was all about Truth. So He wanted everyone to be able to know 100% what the true faith was. The only way to do that was to establish a visible Church. The Bible (which He didn’t leave us) would not be enough, because the scriptures are open to interpretation. However, as the Ethiopian eunuch said to St. Philip in regards to understanding the Scriptures, “How can I understand unless I have a teacher to teach me?”

The Jews had a visible hierarchy. That was never Christ’s objection to them. His issue was that they were not faithful to God’s will.

God bless

I understand that, if Jesus wanted us to have a criteria in order to know some truths without errors about, for example, the Trinity, God’s grace, etc, then a magisterium was certainly the best option. However, my question is: why did he want us to know those truths in the first place, if this knowledge doesn’t make us more holy? As I said, it seems that people who don’t know about Trinity, Immaculate conception, etc, can be as much as holy as those who know those things. So what is God’s point in wanting us to know them?

 

[phil19034]

However, my question is: why did he want us to know those truths in the first place

Because Christ said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light”

Read John 14

John 14 is dealing with the Apostles questioning Jesus regarding how they will know the way, the true path.

Jesus, didn’t come to teach us all the truths of the universe. But He did come to teach us the true path to salvation. So in order to know the way, we must be able to separate the truth about salvation from the half-truths and lies.

BTW - the half-truths are the worst. That’s how the devil tricks us. He doesn’t flat out lie to us. He feeds to half-truths like he did to Eve. This is why Jesus wanted us to know where to find the Truth.

God bless

 

[catholic1seeks]

@opop You can’t empirically verify whether someone is in the state of grace.

Saying everyone is just as holy as Catholics is an assertion. Catholicism is one of the largest religions in the world. Have you inspected every Catholic in the Universe to see what their holiness level is?

That aside, you better believe that having the right doctrines is important for our holiness. Doctrines do not save: We don’t receive a theology exam at the pearly gates. But doctrines are paths to understanding how God wants to relate to us and give us his supernatural life.

I can think of one doctrine right off: That Jesus is Lord. If someone were to not have this belief, then they would not look to Jesus’ teaching and example as the model of holiness.

Don’t you think we need to know Jesus is Lord in order to best know the way to holiness?

 

[Rob2]

The reason I ask is that catholics don’t seem to be more saint in general than those who are not. So what is the point of a visible and structured Church if it doesn’t make us more saint? What do theologians answer to that?

You make a good point there , and I’m not sure that theologians have a satisfactory answer for it .

For all that we Catholics claim the Church to be , and for all we claim is at our disposal because we are members of the Church , and which those outside of the Church lack , there seems little evidence that we Catholics are more saintly than others .

 

[Genesis315]

It is because God is a communion of persons. Salvation is therefore found in a communion of persons. This is a major theme of this pontificate that gets little attention. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith elaborated on this recently:

V. Salvation in the Church, Body of Christ

1. The place where we receive the salvation brought by Jesus is the Church, the community of those who, having been incorporated into this new order of relationship begun by Christ, can receive the fullness of the Spirit of Christ (cf. Rom 8:9). Understanding this salvific mediation of the Church is an essential help in overcoming all reductionist tendencies. The salvation that God offers us is not achieved with our own individual efforts alone, as neo-Pelagianism would contend. Rather, salvation is found in the relationships that are born from the incarnate Son of God and that form the communion of the Church. Because the grace that Christ gives us is not a merely interior salvation, as the neo-Gnostic vision claims, and introduces us into concrete relationships that He Himself has lived, the Church is a visible community. In her we touch the flesh of Jesus, especially in our poorest and most suffering brothers and sisters. Hence, the salvific mediation of the Church, “the universal sacrament of salvation”,[19] assures us that salvation does not consist in the self-realization of the isolated individual, nor in an interior fusion of the individual with the divine. Rather, salvation consists in being incorporated into a communion of persons that participates in the communion of the Trinity.
2. Both the individualistic and the merely interior visions of salvation contradict the sacramental economy through which God willed to save the human person. The participation, in the Church, in the new order of relationships begun by Jesus occurs by means of the sacraments, of which Baptism is the door,[20] and the Eucharist is the source and the summit.[21] In this, the inconsistency of the claims to self-salvation that depend on human efforts alone can be seen. Against this, the Faith confesses that we are saved by means of Baptism, which seals upon us the indelible character of belonging to Christ and to the Church, from which derives the transformation of the way of living our relationships with God, with other men and women, and with creation (cf. Mt 28:19). Thus, purified from original, and all other sins, we are called to a new existence conforming to Christ (cf. Rom 6:4). With the grace of the seven sacraments, believers continually grow and are spiritually renewed, especially when the journey becomes more difficult. When they abandon their love for Christ by sinning, believers can be re-introduced into the order of relationships begun by Christ in the sacrament of Penance, allowing them to again walk as He did (cf. 1 Jn 2:6). In this way, we look with hope toward the Last Judgement, in which each person will be judged on the concreteness of his or her love (cf. Rom 13:8-10), especially regarding the weakest (cf. Mt 25:31-46).

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...c_con_cfaith_doc_20180222_placuit-deo_en.html

 

[Genesis315]

Just to add, being a Catholic is not a magic bullet that makes us holy (but those who take full advantage of the means of salvation she offers are the most holy). We are sinners like everyone else–the Church provides the means to have our sins forgiven so that we might be saved. It is a hospital for sinners, not just a museum of saints.

Remember too, there is more to holiness than external corporal works of mercy, which tends to be all the world judges these days. There is also the virtue of faith (which non-Catholics by very reason of not adhering to all of revelation have less potential for) or the interior life of prayer and the other spiritual works, etc.

 

[po18guy]

OP: A better question: Where did Jesus teach an “invisible Church?”

That is a very new, very man-made idea. It was never taught by our Lord, never taught by the Apostles, never taught in scripture.

It was never taught and never practiced. Rather…

Matthew 5:13-16 “You are > the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trodden under foot by men. 14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. 15 Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

 

[MT1926]

So what is the point of a visible and structured Church if it doesn’t make us more saint?

You have been given some great answers already, so I would like to take this in a different direction.

As @catholic1seeks already stated…

You can’t empirically verify whether someone is in the state of grace.

I would like to add to this that you might also be looking at this through a 21st century lens. You are looking around at the Catholics and non-Catholics in your circle and coming to this conclusion.

Take yourself back 1900 years and ask this same question at that time in history. Would those people of that day have been able to become “more saintly” without the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ?

I would look back in history and consider all of the ground work the Catholic Church has done not only in the Church but in the world.

Here is an article that touches on some of that…

http://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/05/06/what-the-church-has-given-the-world/

I especially appreciate this quote from the article…

In 2007, for example, an atheist businessman, Robert Wilson, gave $22.5 million (£13.5 million) to Catholic education in New York, arguing that, “without the Roman Catholic Church, there would be no western civilisation.”

My point is you need to ask this question taking into consideration how the Catholic Church has fought for the rights of woman and children and the dignity of the human person in general. The hospitals and schools they started, the charities etc…

After considering all of that ask yourself if all of those things would still be present in today’s society if Jesus Christ never founded the Catholic Church.

It is easy for us to say I can be a good holy person on my own, I don’t need the Catholic Church. Especially when we are ignoring the fact that we are currently living in a world with Christian morals that She helped create.

God Bless

 

[opop]

In 2007, for example, an atheist businessman, Robert Wilson, gave $22.5 million (£13.5 million) to Catholic education in New York, arguing that, “without the Roman Catholic Church, there would be no western civilisation.”

That’s a great point. And so I assume that by giving more just and stronger principles to human civilization, the Church helped to save billions that would probably not have been saved otherwise.

 

[AndrewAxland]

A better question: Where did Jesus teach an “invisible Church?”

That’s pretty much what the parable of the Good Samaritan is all about.

 

[Thom18]

A visible Church with a hierarchy reinforces the notion that one can’t “pick and choose” what they believe, and ensures that the Truth is being preached, lest souls be led astray by false teaching.

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

I can’t think of any saints outside the Church.

 

[po18guy]

Well, if you take a huge theological syringe and inject your opinion into it, I suppose it does.

You prove the point! An excellent example, actually.

But it is NOT what Christ taught.

That parable was defining one’s neighbor - a concept which bible Christianity is increasingly rejecting, along with everything else except the magic saving name of Jesus.

He said “Go into all nations, baptizing…”

He did not say “Sneak surreptitiously into all nations and hand out bibles”

That, my good sir, is man-made.

 

[AndrewAxland]

He did not say “Sneak surreptitiously into all nations and hand out bibles”

That is not what the Church Invisible means, at all, and has nothing to do with it, at all. You are totally barking up the wrong tree.

Look up what “Church Invisible” actually means.

 

[po18guy]

Why waste my limited time, when I know the teaching is false?

 

[Todd_Easton]

I’m not a theologian but this is what I think…

The sacraments and the hierarchy were the Lord’s “gifts” to us to help keep us from falling into various errors. The sacraments keep us from falling into the presumptuous and potentially-damning error of thinking we have received graces when we haven’t and the sacraments give us assurance against the error of thinking we haven’t received graces when we have.

As St Paul tells us in Ephesians 4:11-14, the hierarchy (“apostles, … pastors and teachers”) helps keep us from being “tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine.” (Ephesians 4:14) Consider how the apostles and elders authoritatively settled the dispute about whether or not Gentile converts need to observe Jewish circumcision and other Jewish ceremonial practices in Acts 15.