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aborodki
Guest
I came upon this claim but couldn’t articulate theologically why it is ludicrous. Why do we believe that God relates to human beings thru a trinity as opposed to four people ( fourth person we haven’t yet met.)
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FCEGM
Guest
There was a discussion on this a long while back that you might still find.
The reason God is a Trinity is because God is love. Love requires twoness, in fact threeness: the lover, the beloved, and the act, or relationship, of love between them. God is Trinity because God is love itself in its completeness.
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centurionguard
Guest
I won’t make any pretense to understand the Great Mystery of the Holy Trinity any more than anybody on this entire Catholic Forum Site. For every devout Catholic it’s a Dogmatic Mystery of Faith inspired and entrusted to the Church Fathers.
It would be complete arrogance in any persons estimation to understand ALL MYSTERIES between God’s revelation of Himself to humans and how humans perceive those mysteries.
The Dogma of the Trinity
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.
Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: “the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.” In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God’s nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.
In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen (“In Ps. xvii”, 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen’s pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:
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There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever (P.G., X, 986).See additional writings: orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/patrology/papadopoulos_holy_trinity_parousia.htm
copticchurch.net/topics/theology/The_Meaning_of_the_Holy_Trinity_fr_abraam_sleman.pdf
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PJM
Guest
Very interesting question. allow me please to "take a stab at answering it."
***Very interesting question. Allow me please to “take a stab at answering it.”
It should be apparent that from the Creation of Adam and Eve, humanity was Created as THE superior work of the Creator. This being the case one can conclude that there was [and continues to be] some purpose, some specific reason why humanity of all of Gods Creations, is the only THING that consist of both physical Matter [Things] and Spiritual Things. Namely a mind, intellect and freewill. ***
***Science admits to the existence of a “spiritual soul” as the animator of life. That which cause “being.” It’s not discussed much beyond understanding everything that has life, animate and inanimate have this thing that gives it its life. So what is the difference in say a blade of grass, [not on my dead lawn], a dog, and the soul of a human?
Well the dog’s soul also animates its brain, memory, instinct and the like. In a blade of grass all the soul does is give life and seek sustenance. In man the soul not only animates life but also animates mans conscience, which requires the mind, intellect and freewill. Quite a significant difference.*****So what does this have to do with the topic posed? **
Here’s the key. Specifically and precisely why humanity is blessed with these superior gifts we are able to ask? And then determine the reason with reflective logic.
From the time of Adam and Eve God [the Creator] has sought a personal relationship with His Created. Amongst His Created only man has the Capacity to be thankful. Grateful and return love for love.
We can know this from the OT history. From the time of Original Sin when God sought Adam: “where are you?” [Gen. 3:9] Then Saving Noah and his family from the world wide flood, to choosing Abram and changing his name to Abraham, to Moses, Joshua, David and Solomon, the Prophets, Mary and Joseph, john The Baptist, His Apostles and me and you. God has called us “by name” wishing to have a personal relationship with us.
The Highlight of God’s Divine Initiative was in the Incarnation. God so desired this personal relationship that God “became man,” truly God and truly man with two perfect Natures, human, and Divine.
In the OT God was a God to be feared and respected. He spoke in clouds, fire, wind and a burning bush. In the NT, God is seemingly transferred into a “kinder / gentler” God of Mercy and compassion and love. But it’s the same God. **“Do you not know that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? [Jn.14: 10-14.] And Jesus introduces the “Holy Spirit”.[Jn.15:26 “ But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me; and you also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning.”
And early in the Ministry of Christ we find all three Persons of the Trinity gathering for the Baptism of Jesus the man-God.[John 3: 13-17]
Throughout both the OT and NT, one finds references to the number THREE, representing the Blessed Trinity. Gen. 40, Acts 28, Jonah 1, John 2, 2 Cor. 11, Luke 3 and Mark 9 are but a few examples. Christ being buried for THREE day is an excellent example.
***Because God became Incarnate not only to Redeem us [which too is evidence of Gods desire for a personal relationship with humanity] by very specifically and precisely to establish for all time, His much desired personal relationship with Man. [Mt. 10:31] ***]“Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.”
We can know with certainty of faith and logic based on what we know and who we are permitted to God to be. God did all of these wondrous things to establish a God to and with humanity relationship. This God has created us in such a way that we can choose to spend Eternity in His Divine Presence, “face to face” with Him. God so desired this relationship that even today He freely chooses to renew His Friendship, to offer Himself to us in the most intimate relationship imaginable by making Himself really and truly Present to us in Catholic holy Communion. We become “him” and He becomes “us” and as we consume Him, he is able to Consume us. Amen! There is frankly to room left for secrets. We are called to be friends and love**
*John 15: 14 “You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. * You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. This I command you, to love one another.
Love and prayers friend!
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
At most, answers based on appropriateness can be given: as is done in the thread. But those are not the ultimate “reason”: that is something no human being knows. A deity comprehensible by the human intellect would not be worth worshipping. God can be known, but never comprehended.
BTW, “people” is the sort of word better avoided in discussions like this: the Trinity is not “made of” three or four human beings (or of anything). “Persons” is preferable, because it was in theological use long before it was applied to humans.
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Dan_Parker
Guest
That is a good question because no bible writer teaches the doctrine of the Trinity. The basic concept which is the foundation of all legitimate doctrine is taught by one or more bible writers, in context. While not every detail is found in one passage, the basic concept will be there as a teaching.
For example, baptism. We don’t need to take a water verse from one bible writer teaching one context and a dunking verse from another bible writer teaching in yet another context and a repentance verse from (you guessed it!) yet another bible writer teaching a doctrine other than baptism and then paste them all together like a patchwork quilt to form a doctrine that no bible writer ever articulated. Each of the synoptic gospels puts these basic elements together for us to form the basic concept of Christian baptism.
Not so the Trinity. It stands alone.
Catholics (and Protestants!) why do you believe it?
Dan
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Cachonga
Guest
We can only know about God by what He reveals to us. We can be sure of the Trinity (even though the word is not in Scripture), because it is clearly displayed within Scripture. How much more clear can the baptism of Jesus be (the Father speaks from heaven as the incarnate Son comes out of the water and the Holy Spirit descends upon Him (Jesus) in the form of a dove - Matt 3:16-17, Mark 1:10-12 and Luke 3:22)? There is no mention in Scripture of any other person in the Godhead, so it is unscriptural (and heretical) to claim there is a fourth, unknown person who is also God.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Why is water just hydrogen and oxygen?
Because that’s just the way it is. Otherwise it wouldn’t be water.
Why isn’t water hydrogen, oxygen, and sulphur?
Because then it’s sulphuric (or maybe sulphurous) acid.
Why is God just Father, Son, and Holy Spirit–only three Persons?
Because that’s the way He is.
Because that’s just the way it is. Otherwise it wouldn’t be water.
Why isn’t water hydrogen, oxygen, and sulphur?
Because then it’s sulphuric (or maybe sulphurous) acid.
Why is God just Father, Son, and Holy Spirit–only three Persons?
Because that’s the way He is.
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Luke_K
Guest
This is your answer.
The Father’s nature is perfect, complete love, thus he completely does away with himself to the object of his love, the Son. The Son is thus begotten, who is also perfect, complete love, and thus he completely does away with himself to the Father. This act of love is the Holy Spirit.
Three persons in God, yet completely one because of the nature of love.
Human marriage reflects this trinity, because the husband and wife give themselves to each other completely in the marital act, and thus their love becomes a new being- a child.
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PJM
Guest
Oh really
***What about Matthew 3: 13 "Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” Then he consented. And when Jesus [the Son] *was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, [The Holy Spirit] and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, [God the Father]in whom I am well pleased.
***Help me out here is that NOT The Trinity:shrug: and how about this.
We know Jesus is mentioned a zillion times what about “The Father and The Holy Spirit”
The FatherU]*** [here is the short version.]
Matthew: 11:27, 28:19, 24:36 Mark … Luke 10:22, John: [12 times in chapter 14 alone] , Paul:Gal. 1:3, 2 Thess. 1:2, 1 Cor. 8:6, 2 Tim.1:2, Eph. 3:14 ECT.
The Holy Spirit
Matthew:3:11, 1:20, 28:19, 12:32, Mark: 3:28, 13:11, 1:8, 12:36, Luke: 1:16, 12:11, 3:22, 10:21, 11:13 John: 20:23, 14:25, 1:34 Paul: 1:5, 15:13, 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 6:5 Ect.
So much for it not being in the bible:blush:
Love and prayers,
None of my references are “out of context.” But what do you find wrong about using the entire bible? If its in the Bible its God Word, Divinely Inspired and TRUE.
Feel free to check them out for yourself.How about because its true and in the Bible for starters!**
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Dan_Parker
Guest
**=Dan Parker-That is a good question because no bible writer teaches the doctrine of the Trinity. The basic concept which is the foundation of all legitimate doctrine is taught by one or more bible writers, in context. While not every detail is found in one passage, the basic concept will be there as a teaching. **
Oh really
***What about Matthew 3: 13 "Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” Then he consented. And when Jesus [the Son] ***was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, [The Holy Spirit] and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, [God the Father]in whom I am well pleased.
Help me out here is that NOT The Trinity:shrug: and how about this.
Dan:
Perhaps you could define the Trinity for me. I define the Trinity as the teaching that there is one God and that three persons are that one God. Some have described it as three whos, one what. The what is God’s being and the whos are the three persons so that all three persons are the same being.
I have made the challenge that no bible writer teaches the basic concept of the Trinity in context. How is your example any different that finding a verse which mentions Peter, James and John in the same context and then just making up the “fact” that they happen to be one Being?
PJM
It appears to me that to you the Trinity is three being mentioned in the same verse without the need or teaching that they are one God or one being.
We know Jesus is mentioned a zillion times what about “The Father and The Holy Spirit”
The FatherU] [here is the short version.]
Matthew: 11:27, 28:19, 24:36 Mark … Luke 10:22, John: [12 times in chapter 14 alone] , Paul:Gal. 1:3, 2 Thess. 1:2, 1 Cor. 8:6, 2 Tim.1:2, Eph. 3:14 ECT.
The Holy Spirit
Matthew:3:11, 1:20, 28:19, 12:32, Mark: 3:28, 13:11, 1:8, 12:36, Luke: 1:16, 12:11, 3:22, 10:21, 11:13 John: 20:23, 14:25, 1:34 Paul: 1:5, 15:13, 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 6:5 Ect.
So much for it not being in the bible:blush:
Love and prayers,
Dan:
I don’t deny the existence of the Father or of the Son or of the holy spirit. I deny that any bible writer teaches they are the same God or the same Being.
None of my references are “out of context.” But what do you find wrong about using the entire bible? If its in the Bible its God Word, Divinely Inspired and TRUE.
How about because its true and in the Bible for starters!
Dan:
Again, please define the Trinity for me (in case you disagree with what I wrote above) and then show me where a bible writer teaches the basic concept of the Trinity.
Catholics and Protestants, why do you believe the doctrine of the Trinity?
Dan
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Luke_K
Guest
John 14:
I’m sure you know Matthew 28:19, and I can’t see how you cannot interpret this as the Trinity:
And Jesus also expounded on the oneness of God. He was a Jew, after all:
Jesus was a Jew, and thus fiercely monotheistic. Yet he also taught us to baptize people in the name of three persons, and he said that he was one with the Father.
The issue is closed. You cannot be a true follower of Jesus and deny the Trinity.
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Dan_Parker
Guest
In the previous post I asked the question why Catholics and Protestants believed in the Trinity
Luke K
John 14:
Dan:
Thank you for your reply. I am sure you would agree that the Trinity teaches three persons are God and not merely two. I had asked someone to show where a bible writer teaches the basic concept of the Trinity. Evidently you feel this verse is proof that the Father and Son are both God and/or they are the same being because Jesus said the Father dwelt in him and he dwelt in the Father.
However Jesus said that other humans are in the Father and that the Father is in them.
Therefore one should not press this indwelling too far in order to prove that the Father and Son are part of a Trinity. If this an expression of the Trinity it does not say anything about the holy spirit being in them and they in the holy spirit. Two does not make a Trinity, but you don’t have two who are God here or two who are one Being in any event. You have two who are in each other in a similar manner to Christians in 1John 3:24.
Luke K
I’m sure you know Matthew 28:19, and I can’t see how you cannot interpret this as the Trinity:
You should be able to see this from my previous post. There is nothing in this verse about three being one God or the same Being. Peter, Jame and John are frequently mentioned together in the same context, doing the same thing, etc and you do not consider them to be one being or one person.
Luke K
And Jesus also expounded on the oneness of God. He was a Jew, after all:
Jesus here was speaking about the oneness of God, but in this verse he speaks of that God in the third person! He is not claiming to be that God. Grammatically he distinguished himself from that God.
Luke K
Jesus was a Jew, and thus fiercely monotheistic. Yet he also taught us to baptize people in the name of three persons, and he said that he was one with the Father.
The issue is closed. You cannot be a true follower of Jesus and deny the Trinity.
Dan:
The issue is far from closed. You have not supplied a bible writer who teaches that that Jesus and his Father are the same God or the same Being, let alone that there are three who are the same God or Being.
Dan
Luke K
John 14:
Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.’"
Dan:
Thank you for your reply. I am sure you would agree that the Trinity teaches three persons are God and not merely two. I had asked someone to show where a bible writer teaches the basic concept of the Trinity. Evidently you feel this verse is proof that the Father and Son are both God and/or they are the same being because Jesus said the Father dwelt in him and he dwelt in the Father.
However Jesus said that other humans are in the Father and that the Father is in them.
, and the way we know that he remains in us is from the Spirit that he gave us.
Therefore one should not press this indwelling too far in order to prove that the Father and Son are part of a Trinity. If this an expression of the Trinity it does not say anything about the holy spirit being in them and they in the holy spirit. Two does not make a Trinity, but you don’t have two who are God here or two who are one Being in any event. You have two who are in each other in a similar manner to Christians in 1John 3:24.
Luke K
I’m sure you know Matthew 28:19, and I can’t see how you cannot interpret this as the Trinity:
Dan:
You should be able to see this from my previous post. There is nothing in this verse about three being one God or the same Being. Peter, Jame and John are frequently mentioned together in the same context, doing the same thing, etc and you do not consider them to be one being or one person.
Luke K
And Jesus also expounded on the oneness of God. He was a Jew, after all:
Dan:
Jesus here was speaking about the oneness of God, but in this verse he speaks of that God in the third person! He is not claiming to be that God. Grammatically he distinguished himself from that God.
Luke K
Jesus was a Jew, and thus fiercely monotheistic. Yet he also taught us to baptize people in the name of three persons, and he said that he was one with the Father.
The issue is closed. You cannot be a true follower of Jesus and deny the Trinity.
Dan:
The issue is far from closed. You have not supplied a bible writer who teaches that that Jesus and his Father are the same God or the same Being, let alone that there are three who are the same God or Being.
Dan
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PJM
Guest
***My dear freind Dan,
If you don’t listen to God, don’t accept the bible because it does not have the word “Trinity” in it, I would ponit out that it does not say “once saved always saved” either. The difference is that the TRINITY is in the Bible, but OSAS is not.
What does that say about your Faith!
Love and prayers Dan,
If you don’t want to know, perhaps you shouldn’t ask, it seems to be illogical:shrug:***
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Dan_Parker
Guest
I have not made the argument that the Trinity is not true because word is not found in the bible. That is a misrepresentation of my argument. Please go back and read it. I argue that no bible writer teaches the basic concept of the Trinity in context in the same manner as other doctrines are taught. For example, baptism, eternal life, eternal punishment, ransom sacrifice and the resurrection from the dead are all taught in at least their basic forms by bible writers.
As for OSAS, I have seen some attempt to prove this doctrine contextually, however you are mistaken if you think that Jehovah’s Witnesses teach it.
Dan
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Dan_Parker
Guest
You are correct that we do not believe OSAS. We also don’t believe one can work ones way to salvation and our publications are quite specific on this matter.
Dan
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MindOverMatter
Guest
Very good.
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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Dan,
You will notice in my original post that I used the word “accused”.
I found it odd for a group who is usually accused of believing in a works-based salvation can also be accused of believing in an OSAS salvation. My comment was made in that regard and not to state that JW’s believe in a works-based salvation.
God bless you
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