Why Three Persons, not four?

[Convert66]

Dan,

Since you agree angels were created before the universe, then if the Son is eternal on that same basis, why are they not eternal as well?

The Son is not eternal on that basis. The Son is eternal according to the Scriptures.

But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Heb. 1:8)

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Heb. 1:9)

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: (Heb. 1:10)

They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; (Heb. 1:11)

And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. (Heb. 1:12)

 

[Convert66]

Dan,

Dan:
Since you agree angels were created before the universe, then if the Son is eternal on that same basis, why are they not eternal as well?

The Son is not eternal on that same basis. The Son is Eternal according to the Scriptures.

“But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.” (Heb. 1:8; Ps.45:7)

“and: At the beginning , O Lord, you established the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; and they will all grow old like a garment. You will roll them up like a cloak, and like a garment they will all be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (Heb. 1:10-12; Ps. 102:26-28)

“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2)

“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward {is} with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (Rev.22:12,13)

Who is coming quickly? The Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last. Who is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last?

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Rev. 1:8) The Almighty is coming . . .

"Who has performed and accomplished {it,} Calling forth the generations from the beginning? ‘I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.’ "(Is. 41:4)

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. " (Is. 44:6)

Yahweh, the LORD, the King of Israel and Israel’s Redeemer, the LORD(Yahweh) of hosts is the “first and the last. and there is no God besides Me,” He says.

When I saw Him (The Son), I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He(The Son) placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, (Rev. 1:17)

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:” (Rev. 2:8)

So Who is “coming quickly” in Revelation 22? The Almighty; Alpha, Omega, First and Last?

"He who testifies to these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. "(Rev. 22:20).

Jesus identifies Himself in Revelation as the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, which is applied by Isaiah to Yahweh, the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, and beside Him there is “no other God.” The Father identifies the Son in Hebrews 1:8 as “O God,” whose throne is “for ever and ever.”

Jesus Christ is Eternal, because He is The Son of the Eternal Father according to the Scriptures.

As for the plain reading of Genesis 1, it says nothing about time at all. You are still assuming time is a thing that was created and not an abstraction.

I am not assuming anything. Time exists. That is a fact. It “popped” into existence when the universe did.

Dan:
You don’t really know this for sure. If time is a thing and God created it in the physical universe, how do you know that it does not have a counterpart in the spirit realm that was created with it? It is really an argument from silence.

You are seriously positing an unobservable universe while saying I offer an argument from silence?

Look, as well as we can “know” anything, we know that in a cosomological setting time did not exist prior to the Big Bang. What has been suggested by Hawking is a model that is impossible to observe or test scientifically, as is 11-dimensional brane theory. What can be verified are Einsteins relativity equations, and from these observable and testable facts time began to exist, and prior to that there was no time.

Dan:
First of all, the word create is not used in John 1. Jesus himself said:
DRA John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son: and he hath given all things into his hand.

Well, John 3 is certainly not in John 1:3 either. What does this verse have to do with the one you evaded, John 1:3?

"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. "

“Came into being” suggests that it did not exist prior to “being” since the opposite of “being” is “non-being” . . . which is non-existance. That is “all things . . .” and “. . .apart from Him (the Word/Son/Jesus) nothing came into being that has come into being.” This can ONLY mean that Jesus, the Word, the Son created ex nihilo.

You are mixing your arguments. You should abandon the one about the Father needing to be Eternally a Father because he himself is Eternal. How about this: The title of a relationship for God (ie Father but not Husband) indicates an eternal relationship only if it can be proven by other verses that the other party is also eternal?

Fair enough. I’ve established by the Scriptures that Jesus Christ is God, Yahweh, Creator, Redeemer, Alpha, Omega, First and Last, according to the NT writers. I’ll keep my argument about the Father being Father eternally since it is still standing.

As for the Son creating all things, see my previous post which points out that the word create is not in that verse and that Jesus says that his Father gave all things to him, not that he created them.

DRA John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son: and he hath given all things into his hand.
Dan
​

As for the Son creating all things, look at virtually every Scripture I’ve quoted. You’ve yet to address them directly.

You keep asserting that the Hebrews taught untiary Monotheism. Well, some of them certainly did, there is no doubt about that. But there is also no doubt that many Jews of the 2nd Temple period believed in emanations of God, personifications of God, and even Trinity in the Zohar tradition (mystical Judaism).

The philosophical categories for this were known to the Jews of the period and many assigned Divine Sonship to the Messiah/King. The Wisdom literature of the period speaks volumes about this precise belief on the part of 2nd Temple Judaism. For further reading I would suggest Jesus: God’s Wisdom.

All my best . . .
​

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan:
Since you agree angels were created before the universe, then if the Son is eternal on that same basis, why are they not eternal as well?

Dan,

The Son is not eternal on that same basis. The Son is Eternal according to the Scriptures.

Dan:
Sorry for misinterpreting your argument. Many argue that if the Son was before time was created then he must be eternal. That argument does not work when one also agrees the angels were before the universe was created, as you have discovered. Lets look at your proof-texts.

“But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.” (Heb. 1:8; Ps.45:7)

Dan:
This verse says the throne is forever, not the Son.

“and: At the beginning , O Lord, you established the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; and they will all grow old like a garment. You will roll them up like a cloak, and like a garment they will all be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (Heb. 1:10-12; Ps. 102:26-28)

Dan:
This verse was written after the Son was resurrected. He will never die again. That makes him eternal in the sense of Christians who get eternal life. They will never die again either.

“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2)

Dan:
Both the Catholic NAB and NJB read much differently. The say the Son had an origin that was from old, but not eternal.
NAB Micah 5:1 But you, Bethlehem-Ephrathah too small to be among the clans of Judah, From you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel; Whose origin is from of old, from ancient times. NJB Micah 5:1 But you (Bethlehem) Ephrathah, the least of the clans of Judah, from you will come for me a future ruler of Israel whose origins go back to the distant past, to the days of old.

Someone who has an origin is not eternal, no matter how far back that origin was!

“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward {is} with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (Rev.22:12,13) Who is coming quickly? The Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last. Who is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last?

Dan:
I view the Alpha and Omega as God and Jesus as the reward who is with him. This could be an interesting thread in and of itself. In Revelation both the Father and Son are represented as coming. (cp Rev 1:4-5)

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Rev. 1:8) The Almighty is coming . . .

Dan:
Yes, that is the Father, see Rev 1:4-5. The one who is coming in that verse is distinguished from Jesus Christ.

"Who has performed and accomplished {it,} Calling forth the generations from the beginning? ‘I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.’ "(Is. 41:4)

Dan:
The phrase first and last must be interpreted from the context.

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. " (Is. 44:6) Yahweh, the LORD, the King of Israel and Israel’s Redeemer, the LORD(Yahweh) of hosts is the “first and the last. and there is no God besides Me,” He says.

Dan:
In the context of that verse the first and last, there is no other God… he is the first and the last.

When I saw Him (The Son), I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He(The Son) placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, (Rev. 1:17)
“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:” (Rev. 2:8)

Dan:
Yes, in the context of the one who died and came to life, the first to died and be resurrected to immortality the Son is the first and the last. That certainly does not apply to the Father who did not die.

So Who is “coming quickly” in Revelation 22? The Almighty; Alpha, Omega, First and Last? "He who testifies to these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. "(Rev. 22:20).

Dan:
Depends on context. As I have shown both are coming.

Jesus identifies Himself in Revelation as the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, which is applied by Isaiah to Yahweh, the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, and beside Him there is “no other God.” The Father identifies the Son in Hebrews 1:8 as “O God,” whose throne is “for ever and ever.”

Dan:
Jesus is never called the Alpha and the Omega, but he is the first and last in the sense of the resurrection from the dead, something that does not apply to the Father.

Jesus Christ is Eternal, because He is The Son of the Eternal Father according to the Scriptures.

Dan:
The Son had a beginning, an origin, according to your Catholic bibles at Micah 5:2.

Continued in Part II of II.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan,

I am not assuming anything. Time exists. That is a fact. It “popped” into existence when the universe did.

Dan:
That is your philosophy. It certainly is not Scripture.

You are seriously positing an unobservable universe while saying I offer an argument from silence?

** Dan:**
The reason I said this was to show that if you can make something up, so can I. The difference is that I don’t build a doctrine around it!

Look, as well as we can “know” anything, we know that in a cosomological setting time did not exist prior to the Big Bang. What has been suggested by Hawking is a model that is impossible to observe or test scientifically, as is 11-dimensional brane theory. What can be verified are Einsteins relativity equations, and from these observable and testable facts time began to exist, and prior to that there was no time.

Dan:
You cannot build an eternal doctrine on shifting scientific knowledge.

Well, John 3 is certainly not in John 1:3 either. What does this verse have to do with the one you evaded, John 1:3?

Dan:
In John 3:5 Jesus said that all things were given to the Father by the Son. Therefore we know the Son did not originate them or create them. Is all, all?

"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. "

Dan:
The word “through” shows that the Son was used by the Father. The Father made all things through or by means of the Son. The Father gave all things into his hand. As for the punctuation there, the latest critical editions of the Greek read like the NRSV:

NRS John 1:3 All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being 4 in him was life,and the life was the light of all people.

“Came into being” suggests that it did not exist prior to “being” since the opposite of “being” is “non-being” . . . which is non-existance. That is “all things . . .” and “. . .apart from Him (the Word/Son/Jesus) nothing came into being that has come into being.” This can ONLY mean that Jesus, the Word, the Son created ex nihilo.
**
Dan:**
The word create is not used. In addition, read it with the NRSV punctuation and see what you think.

Fair enough. I’ve established by the Scriptures that Jesus Christ is God, Yahweh, Creator, Redeemer, Alpha, Omega, First and Last, according to the NT writers. I’ll keep my argument about the Father being Father eternally since it is still standing.

Dan:
Not at all. You made arguments. I refuted them.

As for the Son creating all things, look at virtually every Scripture I’ve quoted. You’ve yet to address them directly.

Dan:
The word create is not used. The Father gave all things into his hand. If they were given into his hand they had to have been created Ex Nihilo before that.

You keep asserting that the Hebrews taught untiary Monotheism. Well, some of them certainly did, there is no doubt about that. But there is also no doubt that many Jews of the 2nd Temple period believed in emanations of God, personifications of God, and even Trinity in the Zohar tradition (mystical Judaism).

Dan:
I quoted both Malachi 2:10 and the first century Christians who taught that the one God and the only God was the Father.

The philosophical categories for this were known to the Jews of the period and many assigned Divine Sonship to the Messiah/King. The Wisdom literature of the period speaks volumes about this precise belief on the part of 2nd Temple Judaism. For further reading I would suggest Jesus: God’s Wisdom.

Dan:
Thanks for the link. You have much work to do, for your arguments need to be revamped.

Dan

All my best . . .
​

Back to Part I of II

 

[Convert66]

Dan,

Sorry for misinterpreting your argument. Many argue that if the Son was before time was created then he must be eternal. That argument does not work when one also agrees the angels were before the universe was created, as you have discovered.

Only if you assume a priori that Christ is of the same essential nature of any other created spirit being. Since the Scriptures and the history of Christianity run counter to this view, then we may safely assume that the angels “came into being” whereas the Son did not, since he was their Creator (Col.1:16).

“But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.” (Heb. 1:8; Ps.45:7)

Dan:
This verse says the throne is forever, not the Son.

The Son’s throne is for ever and ever. I agree. The Son is also called “God” here.

“and: At the beginning , O Lord, you established the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; and they will all grow old like a garment. You will roll them up like a cloak, and like a garment they will all be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (Heb. 1:10-12; Ps. 102:26-28)

Dan:
This verse was written after the Son was resurrected. He will never die again. That makes him eternal in the sense of Christians who get eternal life. They will never die again either.

No, this verse was written a thousand years before Christ and applied by the author of Hebrews to Christ. It was originally addressed to Yahweh as attributes possessed solely by Yahweh. In Hebrews 1 it is applied to Jesus Christ. In the eyes of the author of Hebrews, Jesus is equal to Yahweh, which is what the Jews understood Jesus to be saying by addressing Yahweh as Father in the Gospel of John. He did not correct them.

“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2)

Dan:
Both the Catholic NAB and NJB read much differently. The say the Son had an origin that was from old, but not eternal.
NAB Micah 5:1 But you, Bethlehem-Ephrathah too small to be among the clans of Judah, From you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel; Whose origin is from of old, from ancient times. NJB Micah 5:1 But you (Bethlehem) Ephrathah, the least of the clans of Judah, from you will come for me a future ruler of Israel whose origins go back to the distant past, to the days of old.
Someone who has an origin is not eternal, no matter how far back that origin was!

“So let us know, let us press on to know the LORD. His going forth is as certain as the dawn; And He will come to us like the rain, Like the spring rain watering the earth.” (Hosea 6:3). Same word as in Micah. “Origin” or “going forth” is here used of Yahweh (LORD). Is Yahweh created too?

Dan:
I view the Alpha and Omega as God and Jesus as the reward who is with him.

It doesn’t say that, though. Jesus says plainly, “I am the Alpha and Omega.”(22:13) Not, “I am the reward of Alpha and Omega.”

Dan:
Yes, that is the Father, see Rev 1:4-5. The one who is coming in that verse is distinguished from Jesus Christ.

Of course they are distinguished. The Father is not the Son. The point is that both the Son and the Father are “Almighty” and “coming”, “first and last” and “Alpha and Omega.” The One who is Coming is Almighty, and He was once “dead” (Rev.1:18) When did the Father die, Dan?

Dan:
In the context of that verse the first and last, there is no other God… he is the first and the last.

Yes, Dan. That IS the point. Yahweh and Christ are both called “The first and the last.” There is no other God, Dan. Jesus Christ and His father Yahweh are both referred as having the same life, nature, attributes, powers, existence and yet they are not the same. This is why we are Trinitarians. This is what the Scriptures plainly show.

Dan:
Yes, in the context of the one who died and came to life, the first to died and be resurrected to immortality the Son is the first and the last. That certainly does not apply to the Father who did not die.

And yet they ARE both applied to the Father and the Son in the same chapter in the same book by the author of Revelation.

Dan:
Depends on context. As I have shown both are coming.

The Almighty is coming. The Alpha the Omega, the first and the last the beginning and the end is coming. Even so, “Come Lord Jesus.”. Jesus is coming.

Dan:
Jesus is never called the Alpha and the Omega, but he is the first and last in the sense of the resurrection from the dead, something that does not apply to the Father.

Jesus calls Himself the Alpha and the Omega in Rev. 22:13.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

“Behold, he is coming amid the clouds, and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him (He who is coming was pierced? Who could that be?). All the peoples of the earth will lament him. Yes, Amen. ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega’, says the Lord God, 'the one who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Rev. 1:7-8).

Jesus Christ is Eternal, because He is The Son of the Eternal Father according to the Scriptures.

Dan:
The Son had a beginning, an origin, according to your Catholic bibles at Micah 5:2.

And according to Hosea 6:3 so does Yahweh. So apparently it doesn’t always mean “origin” as much as it sometimes means 'from eternity" as the NASB translates it.

See ya’ . . .

 

[Convert66]

Dan,

:
The reason I said this was to show that if you can make something up, so can I. The difference is that I don’t build a doctrine around it!

You don’t build any doctrine around a belief that the universe had a beginning and is created by God? This is predicated upon Scripture, Dan. Gen. 1:1, remember? Or do you not believe that the Eternal God created the heavens and the earth?

You cannot build an eternal doctrine on shifting scientific knowledge.

I build my doctrine of the creation of the universe from Genesis 1:1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. God is prior to time, therefore Eternal.

Dan:
In John 3:5 Jesus said that all things were given to the Father by the Son. Therefore we know the Son did not originate them or create them. Is all, all?

I can’t find the verse you’re talking about. John 3:5 is Jesus’ discourse with Nicodemus.

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. "

Dan:
The word “through” shows that the Son was used by the Father. The Father made all things through or by means of the Son. The Father gave all things into his hand. As for the punctuation there, the latest critical editions of the Greek read like the NRSV:
NRS John 1:3 All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being 4 in him was life,and the life was the light of all people.

It comes down to this, Dan. Is Jesus Christ the Son/Word/Wisdom of God a created thing or not? If He is a created thing in your understanding, and wholly “other” from the Godhead, then your understanding of this verse is nonsensical on it’s face, for how can a created thing be responsible for ALL things when He himself is one of the created things?

"“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” (Col. 1:16-17 NASB)

“Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, ‘I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.’” (Is. 44:24) NASB

The maker of all things? Only God did it, according to the Scriptures. So since Jesus is the creator of all things according to the Scriptures, Jesus is God. Jesus reveals God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Matt.28:19. That is, God reveals Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, " Col. 2:9. NASB

What is the “fullness” of Deity? It means that Jesus is filled with Deity, or the state of being God. God can’t “come into being” (John 1:3). He is Eternal.

The word create is not used. In addition, read it with the NRSV punctuation and see what you think.

Created is used in Col. 1:16 and it is referring to Christ.

Dan:
Not at all. You made arguments. I refuted them.

You’ve made hay.

Dan:
The word create is not used.

Col. 1:16.

The Father gave all things into his hand. If they were given into his hand they had to have been created Ex Nihilo before that.

They were created by Wisdom/Son/Word which is Christ Jesus. As I have already demonstrated, ALL things that “came into being” excludes the cause from being one of the things that “came into being”. If Jesus “came into being” then He is also responsible for His own coming to be, prior to all things that “came into being”. Literally, nonsense.

Thanks for the link. You have much work to do, for your arguments need to be revamped.

And yours need to be abandoned.

All my best . . .

 

[Dan_Parker]

Convert66:

You don’t build any doctrine around a belief that the universe had a beginning and is created by God? This is predicated upon Scripture, Dan. Gen. 1:1, remember? Or do you not believe that the Eternal God created the heavens and the earth?

Dan:
You are just getting silly. Please read what I wrote in context. I am not going to waste time arguing for the sake of argument. Read what I wrote and see that my comment deals with building a doctrine on an unstated assumption or theory such as your view that time was created. No bible writer teaches this explicitly.

As for that the universe had a beginning, of course I believe that because that is what the text actually says.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Convert66:
Only if you assume a priori that Christ is of the same essential nature of any other created spirit being. Since the Scriptures and the history of Christianity run counter to this view, then we may safely assume that the angels “came into being” whereas the Son did not, since he was their Creator (Col.1:16).

Dan:
You have a habit of throwing out verses without showing they prove your point. In the future, should you wish these to be considered proof, please show how in context they are proof.

Now here is what the verse literally says:

NRS Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for **in = EN him **all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers – all things have been created through him and for him.

The Greek here says all things were created in him. The Son is not called creator here at all. The Lutheran Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich says of the preposition EN in this verse:
everything was created in association with him 1:16

Jesus is the head of the body and the members of the body of Christ were created in him. That is the view of the Lutheran BDAG and also the written view of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Grammatically the one who does the creating cannot be in a dependent prepositional phrase. When one converts the passive
All things were created in him
to the active
Someone created all things in him
it is clear that he is not the one doing the creating.

Please do not be deceived by versions of the bible which render this as all things were created **by **him. The only way this rendering would fit the Greek would be as a shortened form of the instrumental “by means of him.”

In Greek the ultimate agent of an activity is just not expressed by something being done “in” them. EN AUTWi (in him) is the instrumental dative.

 

[Dan_Parker]

“But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.” (Heb. 1:8; Ps.45:7)

Dan:
This verse says the throne is forever, not the Son.

**Convert66: **
The Son’s throne is for ever and ever. I agree. The Son is also called “God” here.

Dan:
You were trying to use this to say the Son was eternal. Good to see you now admit that is not the case. As for him being called God, there are two possiblities:

1. Psalm 45:6-7 is speaking of a Hebrew king, likely Solomon. Therefore the Messiah is God in the way this king was called elohim, as the representative of God.
2. Various bibles render this differently. It is equally grammatical to render this as something to the effect of “God is your throne.”

Interestingly, the NJV renders Ps 45:6 as:
NJB Psalm 45:6 Your throne is from God, for ever and ever, the sceptre of your kingship a sceptre of justice,

That same bible makes a very interesting change to this quote in Hebrews 1:8
NJB Hebrews 1:8 but to the Son he says: Your throne, God, is for ever and ever; and: the sceptre of his kingdom is a sceptre of justice;

Seems like they are conflicted!

Here are some others:

Hebrews 1:8

1. 
   *]“God is thy throne for ever and ever” (Moffatts)
   *]“Your throne is like God’s throne” (NEB)
   *]“God has enthroned you for all eternity.” (REB)
   *]“God is your throne” (Byingtons)
   *]“Your throne,God, is for ever and ever.” (New Jerusalem Bible)
   *]“or God is your throne” (NRSV footnote)
   *]“Thy throne is the throne of God” (ASV footnote)
   *]“Thy throne, which is of God.” (Harkavy THS )
   *]“God is Thy Throne” (B.F Westcott ,the Epistle to the Hebrews)
   *]“hO QRONOS SOU hO QEOS EIS TON AIWNA TOU AIWNOS” (Westcott and Hort Greek)
   *] “God is thy throne forever and ever”—The Twentieth Century New Testament
   *] “God is your throne forever and ever!”—AT.
   *] “You shall sit on the throne of God for ever”—Lubach.
   *]God is thy throne for ever and ever”—(offered as an alternative in the NEB and By. See “Notes on Passages” in the By.
   *] “Your throne, O Lord, is forever and ever”—Noli.
   *] “God is thy throne for ever and ever”—Improved Version, 1808.
   *] “Your throne is God for an age of ages,”—The Unvarnished New Testament.
   *] “O GOD.] This is a clear instance where Christ is called ‘God,’ but as v.9 speaks God as his ‘God,’ we cannot lay stress upon it here as proving the supreme divinity of the Saviour, besides it may be justly rendered. ‘God is thy throne—to ages of the ages’ in ether case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”—Robert Young, Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commentary.
   *] “God is your throne forever”—NWT.

1. 
   

   Psalms 45:7
   

   1. 
      *]"hO QRONOS SOU hO QEOS EIS TON AIWNA TOU AIWNOS " (Greek Septuagint - LXX)
      *]“Your throne shall stand for evermore” (Moffatts)
      *]“God is your throne” (Byington)
      *]“Your throne is from God” (New Jerusalem Bible)
      *]“The throne that god has given you.” (GNB)
      *]“Your throne is like God’s throne” (NEB)
      *]“or Your throne is a throne of God” (NRSV footnote )
      *]“Thy throne is God” (ASV footnote)
      *]“Thy throne is like God’s throne for ever and ever” (Professor G.R.Driver)
      *]“Thy throne is like unto God’s throne that endureth for ever” (Dr. Winton Thomas, The Text of the Revised Psalter ,London 1963 )
      *]“Thy throne is God for ever and ever.” (J.A. Emerton, The Syntactical Problem of Psalm XLV.7 Semitic Studies edited by James Barr)
      *] “Thy throne, given of God”—Lesser
      *] “Thy throne, given of God.”—Margolis.
      *]“Your divine throne”—RSV.
      *]“Your throne is the throne of God” (NEB)
      *]“Your throne is the throne of God”—R.J. Moulton, Modern Reader’s Bible.
      *]“Thy kingdom that God has given you will last for ever and ever”—TEV–GN.
      *] “Thy throne, which is of God, shall stand for ever and ever”—Alexander Harkavy, The Holy Scriptures, 1936, reprint of 1951.
      *]“God has enthroned you for all eternity”—The Revised English Bible.
      *]“God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever”—NWT.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Convert66:

“and: At the beginning , O Lord, you established the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; and they will all grow old like a garment. You will roll them up like a cloak, and like a garment they will all be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (Heb. 1:10-12; Ps. 102:26-28)

Dan:
This verse was written after the Son was resurrected. He will never die again. That makes him eternal in the sense of Christians who get eternal life. They will never die again either.

Convert66:
No, this verse was written a thousand years before Christ and applied by the author of Hebrews to Christ. It was originally addressed to Yahweh as attributes possessed solely by Yahweh. In Hebrews 1 it is applied to Jesus Christ. In the eyes of the author of Hebrews, Jesus is equal to Yahweh, which is what the Jews understood Jesus to be saying by addressing Yahweh as Father in the Gospel of John. He did not correct them.

Dan:
This is your proof text not mine. If you wish to prove what you just said, please do so. While this was written years before Christ it could not have applied to Christ when it was written.

NAB Psalm 102:24 **God has shattered my strength in mid-course, has cut short my days. 25 I plead, O my God, do not take me in the midst of my days. **Your years last through all generations. 26 Of old you laid the earth’s foundations; the heavens are the work of your hands. 27 They perish, but you remain; they all wear out like a garment; Like clothing you change them and they are changed, 28 but you are the same, your years have no end. 29 May the children of your servants live on; may their descendants live in your presence.

The Messiah died in his thirties and was resurrected in the middle of the life of human beings at that time. He says God does not change and that he is the same but others change. Certainly the Messiah changed when he became flesh, died and was resurrected.

However at the time that Hebrews was written he was already resurrected.

HE HAS RISEN!

Therefore what was said about Yahweh in Psalms was not true about the Messiah until after he was resurrected. Now he will no longer die and he will no longer change.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan:
Both the Catholic NAB and NJB read much differently. The say the Son had an origin that was from old, but not eternal.

NAB Micah 5:1 But you, Bethlehem-Ephrathah too small to be among the clans of Judah, From you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel; Whose origin is from of old, from ancient times. NJB Micah 5:1 But you (Bethlehem) Ephrathah, the least of the clans of Judah, from you will come for me a future ruler of Israel whose origins go back to the distant past, to the days of old.

Someone who has an origin is not eternal, no matter how far back that origin was!

Convert66:
“So let us know, let us press on to know the LORD. His going forth is as certain as the dawn; And He will come to us like the rain, Like the spring rain watering the earth.” (Hosea 6:3). Same word as in Micah. “Origin” or “going forth” is here used of Yahweh (LORD). Is Yahweh created too?

Dan:
No, it is not the same thing. Your own Catholic bibles don’t render the verse as “origin.”

NAB Hosea 6:3 Let us know, let us strive to know the LORD; as certain as the dawn is his coming, and his judgment shines forth like the light of day! He will come to us like the rain, like spring rain that waters the earth."

NJB Hosea 6:3 Let us know, let us strive to know Yahweh; that he will come is as certain as the dawn. He will come to us like a shower, like the rain of springtime to the earth.

The reason is that the word used here which is similar to the one in Micah 5:2 but not exactly the same is said by the Hebrew lexicons to have the sense of ***—4. coming forth, appearance: *** (Halot lexicon)

Hosea 6:3 does not impact the usage at Micah 5:2. Catholic bibles use origin for Micah 5:2 but not in Hosea 6:3 for good reason.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Convert66:
It doesn’t say that, though. Jesus says plainly, “I am the Alpha and Omega.”(22:13) Not, “I am the reward of Alpha and Omega.”

Dan:
This is your proof text and therefore you bear the burden of proof. The text does not identify Jesus as the speaker. That is for you to prove. Consider this from the context:

Revelation 22:12-13 See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work.13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

That it is the Father speaking at Revelation 22:13 where John quotes Isaiah 40:10 can be seen by analyzing the Hebrew Scriptures where the phrase “my reward is with me” is quoted by John.

In this Messianic prophecy Jehovah the Father is distinguished from his Son who is called “my reward” and his “arm.” We know that the Father calls his Son his “arm” because John spoke of this at John 12:38, quoting Isaiah 53:5. Jesus is not the “arm” of the Trinity, but the “arm” of the Father, who anointed him. (c.f. Isaiah 42)

NAB Isaiah 53:1 Who would believe what we have heard? To whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

Isaiah 53:5 identifies the “arm of Jehovah” as the Messiah with “But he was being pierced for our transgression” Also the Father is Yahweh here because Isaiah 53:10 says

NJB Isaiah 53:10 It was Yahweh’s good pleasure to crush him with pain; if he gives his life as a sin offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his life, and through him Yahweh’s good pleasure will be done.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 3 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (KJV)

Isaiah 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong [hand], and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward [is] with him, and his work before him. (KJV)

John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? (KJV) (c.f. Isaiah 53:1,5)

The Father says that “my reward is with me”. Isaiah 40 is prophetic of the Messiah who is called Yahweh’s “arm” which can be seen from John 12:38. The “arm” and the “reward” are both Jesus, who was sent by the Father to save us. (John 3:16).

Therefore at Revelation 22:13 it must be the Father speaking as the Alpha and the Omega. As always, the bible carefully distinguishes the Father as the Almighty God from all others, including his Son who is the Son of God, not God.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan:
In John 3:35 Jesus said that all things were given to the Father by the Son. Therefore we know the Son did not originate them or create them. Is all, all?

Convert66:
I can’t find the verse you’re talking about. John 3:35 is Jesus’ discourse with Nicodemus.

[Note: Sorry for the typo, I fixed it in this post]

Dan:
The word “through” shows that the Son was used by the Father. The Father made all things through or by means of the Son. The Father gave all things into his hand. As for the punctuation there, the latest critical editions of the Greek read like the NRSV:
NRS John 1:3 All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being 4 in him was life,and the life was the light of all people.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan:
The word create is not used. The Father gave all things into his hand. If they were given into his hand they had to have been created Ex Nihilo before that.

Convert66:
You keep asserting that the Hebrews taught untiary Monotheism. Well, some of them certainly did, there is no doubt about that. But there is also no doubt that many Jews of the 2nd Temple period believed in emanations of God, personifications of God, and even Trinity in the Zohar tradition (mystical Judaism).

Dan_Replies:
My arguments are not isolated to the Jews. Look at the link in my signature to my post on this. The verses I use start at Mal 2:10 but most are in the Christian Greek Scriptures, what you call the NT.

Dan:
I quoted both Malachi 2:10 and the first century Christians who taught that the one God and the only God was the Father.

Convert66:
The philosophical categories for this were known to the Jews of the period and many assigned Divine Sonship to the Messiah/King. The Wisdom literature of the period speaks volumes about this precise belief on the part of 2nd Temple Judaism. For further reading I would suggest Jesus: God’s Wisdom.

Dan_Replies:
Again, my argument that bible writers teach that the one God is the Father is not limited to the Jews in the OT. See link 2 in my signature which is entitled “Bible writers identify the Father as the one God” I made this post on this board at forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5632753&postcount=1

 

[Dan_Parker]

Convert66:

“Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, ‘I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.’” (Is. 44:24) NASB

The maker of all things? Only God did it, according to the Scriptures. So since Jesus is the creator of all things according to the Scriptures, Jesus is God. Jesus reveals God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Matt.28:19. That is, God reveals Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Dan:
I have already dealt with the verses where you incorrectly assign the Son as the creator. In John 1:3 the word create is not used. In Col 1:16 the Son is not explicitly called creator and the grammar proves that someone else created “in” him, that is the Church.

As for Isaiah 44:24 there are various nuances depending upon the translation. Consider the NJB:
NJB Isaiah 44:24 Thus says Yahweh, your redeemer, he who formed you in the womb: I, Yahweh, have **made **all things, I **alone **spread out the heavens. When I hammered the earth into shape, who was with me?

In Scripture the Father is represented as the one who makes all things through his Son (eg Hebrews 1:1-2) [1] but sometimes the creative acts of God are related without any mention of the Son such as Hebrews 2:10 and Romans 10:36.

Note that in Hebrews 1:1-2 it is actually the Father who is said to be the maker through the Son. The Son is not called Maker or said to make at all.

---

References
1 NJB Hebrews 1:1 At many moments in the past and by many means, God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets; but 2 in our time, the final days, he has spoken to us in the person of his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom he made the ages.
2 NJB Romans 11:33 How rich and deep are the wisdom and the knowledge of God! We cannot reach to the root of his decisions or his ways. 34 Who has ever known the mind of the Lord? Who has ever been his adviser? 35 Who has given anything to him, so that his presents come only as a debt returned? 36 Everything there is comes from him and is caused by him and exists for him. To him be glory for ever! Amen.
3 NJB Hebrews 2:10 It was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should, in bringing many sons to glory, make perfect through suffering the leader of their salvation.

 

[FCEGM]

I said this before but it has not been answered. The text above does not speak of the foreknowledge of God. It is the first person account of Wisdom speaking of its own creation before the earth was made. It is not a first hand account of Wisdom saying that it was foretold a long time ago that it would be created.

It doesn’t need to be speaking explicitly of God’s foreknowledge for it to be understood as such in view of the known Incarnation of the Son. All of the OT is understood by the light of Faith given in Christ, that sensus fidelium of the Faithful in Him. And it is, as you admit - or, at least, as your religion views it - a personification; thus it is not a separate being from the Being of God.

The explanation you are giving is that this is the incarnation of the Son being foretold a long time in advance. That is how Athanasius got around the creation of the Son. I though all Trinitarians believed that the fleshly body of the Son of man was part of the created order just like your body and my body.

It is not how Athanasius “got around the creation of the Son”; it is the light of Catholic Faith which aided the Fathers in seeing Christ in Proverbs and in the Old Testament as a whole. Of course Christ’s Church upholds the truth of the Incarnation and the belief that His body of flesh is part of the created order except in regards to the sin to which we are heir. But God’s eternal knowledge of the Son taking on a body of flesh is not of the earthly order; this act in time is eternally present to Him Who is not subject to time.

Lets back up a bit. My position is that the Catholic NJB renders this as createand that the ECF considered this to be the Son.

No, let’s not back up a bit for the moment. You are saying that Proverbs 8:22 is not a personification, but presents the “reality” of Christ being created. JW writing on the subject, otc, directly identifies this as a personification. Are you denying your religion’s view of this? (BTW, the NJB is not the only Catholic translation; the NAB, e.g., translates it as “The LORD begot me. . .”)

I don’t need to prove that this is the Son. That is what you teach, is it not?

And yet you are precisely trying to prove that in a way that supports your view of the Son.

My criticism is that I have yet to see a reasonable explanation that does not damage the text while preserving the believe that the Son is uncreated.

I agree that personification is found in scripture. Are you trying to argue against the Catholic position here? Did Athanasius and all the Early Church Fathers who quoted the LXX get this wrong in your view?

You give two different mutually exclusive arguments in your reply to me. Which is it?

Of course you see it as two mutually exclusive arguments because you do not know Who God IS. And of course this personification of Wisdom is seen as the Son by His Church: the Son in His Incarnation and the Son as God - One Person; you are trying to make a distinction between God and Wisdom (the Son), rather than understanding Wisdom as the one attribute of God that is wholly God’s and thus wholly the Son’s because the Son IS God the Son.

 

[Dan_Parker]

It doesn’t need to be speaking explicitly of God’s foreknowledge for it to be understood as such in view of the known Incarnation of the Son. All of the OT is understood by the light of Faith given in Christ, that sensus fidelium of the Faithful in Him. And it is, as you admit - or, at least, as your religion views it - a personification; thus it is not a separate being from the Being of God.

Dan:
Your interpretation flies in the face of the text, which you turn upside down to come to your understanding. The text literally quotes the Son as saying that he was created before the world. In addition you don’t understand how Jehovah’s Witnesses view Wisdom Personified.

No, let’s not back up a bit for the moment. You are saying that Proverbs 8:22 is not a personification, but presents the “reality” of Christ being created. JW writing on the subject, otc, directly identifies this as a personification. Are you denying your religion’s view of this? (BTW, the NJB is not the only Catholic translation; the NAB, e.g., translates it as “The LORD begot me. . .”)

Dan:

***** it-2 pp. 52-53 Jesus Christ *****
Wisdom personified. What is recorded concerning the Word in the Scriptures fits remarkably the description given at Proverbs 8:22-31. There wisdom is personified, represented as though able to speak and act. (Pr 8:1) Many professed Christian writers of the early centuries of the Common Era understood this section to refer symbolically to God’s Son in his prehuman state. In view of the texts already considered, **there can be no denying that that Son was “produced” by Jehovah “as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago,” nor that the Son was “beside [Jehovah] as a master worker” during earth’s creation, as described in these verses of Proverbs. **It is true that in Hebrew, which assigns gender to its nouns (as do many other languages), the word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender. This would continue to be the case even though wisdom is personified and so would not rule out wisdom’s being used figuratively to represent God’s firstborn Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” (1Jo 4:8) is also in the feminine gender but that does not make God feminine. Solomon, the principal writer of Proverbs (Pr 1:1), applied the title qo‧he′leth (congregator) to himself (Ec 1:1) and this word is also in the feminine gender.

Therefore our interpretation is that while wisdom is a quality it is being used to figuratively represent the Son of God who we see as literally doing the things from Proverbs 8:22-30.

Of course you see it as two mutually exclusive arguments because you do not know Who God IS. And of course this personification of Wisdom is seen as the Son by His Church: the Son in His Incarnation and the Son as God - One Person; you are trying to make a distinction between God and Wisdom (the Son), rather than understanding Wisdom as the one attribute of God that is wholly God’s and thus wholly the Son’s because the Son IS God the Son.

Dan:
You don’t see Yahweh in this verse as the Father? Or do you? The Father made all things through the Son. That is the relationship being portrayed between Yahweh and Wisdom in this passage.

 

[FCEGM]

Therefore our interpretation is that while wisdom is a quality it is being used to figuratively represent the Son of God who we see as literally doing the things from Proverbs 8:22-30.

Nice try, but your religion can’t have it both ways: “However, it is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36).” It denies in one place that Proverbs 8 is referring to a specific person (in an attempt to deny the Personhood of the Holy Spirit), and in another to tries to say just the opposite. Further, wisdom as a “quality” of God isn’t distinct from God; all His attributes are “held” in the One Being in Divine simplicity. There are no parts of God; God Himself Who IS Wisdom, IS Love, IS Holiness, etc., etc., etc…

You don’t see Yahweh in this verse as the Father? Or do you? The Father made all things through the Son. That is the relationship being portrayed between Yahweh and Wisdom in this passage.

Of course Yahweh is the Father and the Father made all things through the Son, Who Himself, Being God, IS Wisdom, as the Father Is. The Son, Who IS eternally the Image of the Father possesses all the Father’s attributes as He Is One In Being with the Father. In speaking of God’s essential attributes they are sometimes appropriated to a Person ( i.e., Wisdom is an attribute appropriated to the Son) not to show the Person as having an attribute exclusive to that Person, but to manifest the working in salvation history of the Persons. Christ is Wisdom not only because He communicates wisdom to men, but because He Himself IS Wisdom (1 Cor. 1:24-30).

 

[Dan_Parker]

FCEGM:
Nice try, but your religion can’t have it both ways: “However, it is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36).” It denies in one place that Proverbs 8 is referring to a specific person (in an attempt to deny the Personhood of the Holy Spirit), and in another to tries to say just the opposite. Further, wisdom as a “quality” of God isn’t distinct from God; all His attributes are “held” in the One Being in Divine simplicity. There are no parts of God; God Himself Who IS Wisdom, IS Love, IS Holiness, etc., etc., etc…

Dan:
When wisdom is personified, JWs do not view it as metaphorically representing the Son of God in every instance. Do Catholics? We also don’t view Wisdom in Proverbs 8:22 as being a quality of God, for it is created and God has always existed.

 

[Benadam]

Dan:

When wisdom is personified, JWs do not view it as metaphorically representing the Son of God in every instance. Do Catholics? We also don’t view Wisdom in Proverbs 8:22 as being a quality of God, for it is created and God has always existed.

From the KJV
Proverbs Ch.8

• 22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. *
• 23I was set up from everlasting,* from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
• 24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. *
• 25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: *
• 26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. *
• 27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: *
• 28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: *
• 29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: ** 30Then I was by him,** as one brought up with him:*** and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Dan, you don’t see this passage as an attempt to describe a reality that has always been with God? A reality that was with God before God created any ‘thing’. For instance; God’s wisdom is ‘brought forth’ yet has always been.