G
geezerbob
Guest
Good thought, but part of the enemy in WWII (Japan) and the enemy now (Muslim extremists) do not believe in Christ as we do. I’ll gladly go along with what you said if you will just get them to do the same.
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A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
Philip P:
OK. Good work. I’ll reply tomorrow.
M
mjdonnelly
Guest
Philip P:
I would think our main differences would have been based on the third account above since it was the mass destruction that led to the surrender, not just the loss of the military capacity at the city.
And, referencing the catechism, is that from the catechism in effect in 1945? If not, do you know where we could find a link to that one?
B
Brendan
Guest
Philip P:
God destroyed Sodom and Gehmorrah.
You must therefore hold that either:
This contention is unproven.
God destroyed Sodom and Gehmorrah.
You must therefore hold that either:
- God committed wrong\evil.
- The destruction of a city and all it’s inhabitants is not wrong\evil.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
Clever, but not relevant. God cannot sin.
M
mjdonnelly
Guest
vern humphrey:
But still a good point. Using that line of logic would lead to that the destruction of a city is not alway evil.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
But again, not relevant. You’d have to find a case of the justified destruction of a city by human decision.
G
grotto
Guest
I am not joining the arguments but would like to pass along something that was said a long time ago - “man has never invented a weapon he hasn’t used” - thats a poor job of a quote but makes sense to me. Also, if my historical memory serves me correctly, the actual bomb drop on Hiroshima was so destructive that a response from the Japanese to surrender was unable to get through to our government. So the drop on Nagasaki was carried out since a surrender was not forthcoming. The after effects took decades to glean information from survivors and study the horrific damage.
The scientists were quite astounded at the devastation rendered.
Before everybody gets too carried away about how perfectly awful the good ole USA is - remember - we were the first to acquire the bomb among many trying! Also, look around you today, how many other war mongering countries are there that have the nukes, the ability to use them, or are just about reaching that ability? Yeah, its scary. Not to mention the “oh so peaceful religious nuts” that are doing their best to plunk an Alcaida sized one down in the civilian population of larger cities.
The history of WWII has been pretty well documented for taking a serious approach to the “Why”.
The scientists were quite astounded at the devastation rendered.
Before everybody gets too carried away about how perfectly awful the good ole USA is - remember - we were the first to acquire the bomb among many trying! Also, look around you today, how many other war mongering countries are there that have the nukes, the ability to use them, or are just about reaching that ability? Yeah, its scary. Not to mention the “oh so peaceful religious nuts” that are doing their best to plunk an Alcaida sized one down in the civilian population of larger cities.
The history of WWII has been pretty well documented for taking a serious approach to the “Why”.
M
mjdonnelly
Guest
vern humphrey:
Only thing I can think of is OT passages with the Israelites.
Not only that, but a case where it is justified by every viewpoint or by God.
Only thing I can think of is OT passages with the Israelites.
B
Brendan
Guest
vern humphrey:
Phillip made the claim that the destruction of a city is always wrong.
Since God has destroyed cities, it must logically follow that either Phillip’s claim is wrong, or that God can commit wrongdoing.
I know which premise I follow, but it would be interesting to hear Phillip’s conclusion.
No, it is still relevant.
Phillip made the claim that the destruction of a city is always wrong.
Since God has destroyed cities, it must logically follow that either Phillip’s claim is wrong, or that God can commit wrongdoing.
I know which premise I follow, but it would be interesting to hear Phillip’s conclusion.
B
Brendan
Guest
vern humphrey:
If an action is intrinsically evil, it would be intrinsically evil no matter who the agent was.
In other words, an otherwise evil action is not Just because God is the one who does it.
That is exactly how we know there is such a thing as Just War. God commanded men to go to war, God cannot command us to do an evil act, therefore there must be circumstances where war is Just.
It does not follow that all war is just, but it does not mean that war is intrinscially unjust.
The exact same is true here. God destroyed cities. That would mean that the destruction of a city can be Just. It does not mean that the destruciton of a city is always Just, but it does not follow that such a destruction is always wrong.
Simple logic.
It is relevant.
If an action is intrinsically evil, it would be intrinsically evil no matter who the agent was.
In other words, an otherwise evil action is not Just because God is the one who does it.
That is exactly how we know there is such a thing as Just War. God commanded men to go to war, God cannot command us to do an evil act, therefore there must be circumstances where war is Just.
It does not follow that all war is just, but it does not mean that war is intrinscially unjust.
The exact same is true here. God destroyed cities. That would mean that the destruction of a city can be Just. It does not mean that the destruciton of a city is always Just, but it does not follow that such a destruction is always wrong.
Simple logic.
W
Wolseley
Guest
Won’t change anybody’s mind, but just for background:
(from waszak.com/japanww2.htm)
What the military leaders did not know was that by the end of July the Japanese had been saving all aircraft, fuel, and pilots in reserve, and had been feverishly building new planes for the decisive battle for their homeland.
As part of Ketsu-Go, the name for the plan to defend Japan – the Japanese were building 20 suicide takeoff strips in southern Kyushu with underground hangars. They also had 35 camouflaged airfields and nine seaplane bases.
On the night before the expected invasion, 50 Japanese seaplane bombers, 100 former carrier aircraft and 50 land based army planes were to be launched in a suicide attack on the fleet.
The Japanese had 58 more airfields in Korea, western Honshu and Shikoku, which also were to be used for massive suicide attacks.
Allied intelligence had established that the Japanese had no more than 2,500 aircraft of which they guessed 300 would be deployed in suicide attacks.
In August 1945, however, unknown to Allied intelligence, the Japanese still had 5, 651 army and 7,074 navy aircraft, for a total of 12, 725 planes of all types. Every village had some type of aircraft manufacturing activity. Hidden in mines, railway tunnels, under viaducts and in basements of department stores, work was being done to construct new planes.
When the invasion became imminent, Ketsu-Go called for a fourfold aerial plan of attack to destroy up to 800 Allied ships.
While Allied ships were approaching Japan, but still in the open seas, an initial force of 2,000 army and navy fighters were to fight to the death to control the skies over Kyushu. A second force of 330 navy combat pilots were to attack the main body of the task force to keep it from using its fire support and air cover to protect the troop carrying transports. While these two forces were engaged, a third force of 825 suicide planes was to hit the American transports.
As the invasion convoys approached their anchorages, another 2,000 suicide planes were to be launched in waves of 200 to 300, to be used in hour by hour attacks.
Facing the 14 American divisions landing at Kyushu would be 14 Japanese divisions, 7 independent mixed brigades, 3 tank brigades and thousands of naval troops. On Kyushu the odds would be 3 to 2 in favor of the Japanese, with 790,000 enemy defenders against 550,000 Americans.
All along the invasion beaches, American troops would face coastal batteries, anti-landing obstacles and a network of heavily fortified pillboxes, bunkers, and underground fortresses. As Americans waded ashore, they would face intense artillery and mortar fire as they worked their way through concrete rubble and barbed-wire entanglements arranged to funnel them into the muzzles of these Japanese guns.
On the beaches and beyond would be hundreds of Japanese machine gun positions, beach mines, booby traps, trip-wire mines and sniper units. Suicide units concealed in “spider holes” would engage the troops as they passed nearby. In the heat of battle, Japanese infiltration units would be sent to reap havoc in the American lines by cutting phone and communication lines. Some of the Japanese troops would be in American uniform, English-speaking Japanese officers were assigned to break in on American radio traffic to call off artillery fire, to order retreats and to further confuse troops. Other infiltration with demolition charges strapped on their chests or backs wold attempt to blow up american tanks, artillery pieces and ammunition stores as they were unloaded ashore.
Beyond the beaches were large artillery pieces situated to bring down a curtain of fire on the beach. Some of these large guns were mounted on railroad tracks running in and out of caves protected by concrete and steel.
In the mountains behind the Japanese beaches were underground networks of caves, bunkers, command posts and hospitals connected by miles of tunnels with dozens of entrances and exits. Some of these complexes could hold up to 1,000 troops.
In addition to the use of poison gas and bacteriological warfare (which the Japanese had experimented with), Japan mobilized its citizenry.
Had Olympic come about, the Japanese civilian population, inflamed by a national slogan - “One Hundred Million Will Die for the Emperor and Nation” - were prepared to fight to the death. Twenty Eight Million Japanese had become a part of the National Volunteer Combat Force. They were armed with ancient rifles, lunge mines, satchel charges, Molotov cocktails and one-shot black powder mortars. Others were armed with swords, long bows, axes and bamboo spears. The civilian units were to be used in nighttime attacks, hit and run maneuvers, delaying actions and massive suicide charges at the weaker American positions.
At the early stage of the invasion, 1,000 Japanese and American soldiers would be dying every hour.
Intelligence studies and military estimates made 50 years ago, and not latter-day speculation, clearly indicate that the battle for Japan might well have resulted in the biggest blood-bath in the history of modern warfare.
The invasion of Japan never became a reality because on August 6, 1945, an atomic bomb was exploded over Hiroshima. Three days later, a second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. Within days the war with Japan was at a close.
(from waszak.com/japanww2.htm)
What the military leaders did not know was that by the end of July the Japanese had been saving all aircraft, fuel, and pilots in reserve, and had been feverishly building new planes for the decisive battle for their homeland.
As part of Ketsu-Go, the name for the plan to defend Japan – the Japanese were building 20 suicide takeoff strips in southern Kyushu with underground hangars. They also had 35 camouflaged airfields and nine seaplane bases.
On the night before the expected invasion, 50 Japanese seaplane bombers, 100 former carrier aircraft and 50 land based army planes were to be launched in a suicide attack on the fleet.
The Japanese had 58 more airfields in Korea, western Honshu and Shikoku, which also were to be used for massive suicide attacks.
Allied intelligence had established that the Japanese had no more than 2,500 aircraft of which they guessed 300 would be deployed in suicide attacks.
In August 1945, however, unknown to Allied intelligence, the Japanese still had 5, 651 army and 7,074 navy aircraft, for a total of 12, 725 planes of all types. Every village had some type of aircraft manufacturing activity. Hidden in mines, railway tunnels, under viaducts and in basements of department stores, work was being done to construct new planes.
When the invasion became imminent, Ketsu-Go called for a fourfold aerial plan of attack to destroy up to 800 Allied ships.
While Allied ships were approaching Japan, but still in the open seas, an initial force of 2,000 army and navy fighters were to fight to the death to control the skies over Kyushu. A second force of 330 navy combat pilots were to attack the main body of the task force to keep it from using its fire support and air cover to protect the troop carrying transports. While these two forces were engaged, a third force of 825 suicide planes was to hit the American transports.
As the invasion convoys approached their anchorages, another 2,000 suicide planes were to be launched in waves of 200 to 300, to be used in hour by hour attacks.
Facing the 14 American divisions landing at Kyushu would be 14 Japanese divisions, 7 independent mixed brigades, 3 tank brigades and thousands of naval troops. On Kyushu the odds would be 3 to 2 in favor of the Japanese, with 790,000 enemy defenders against 550,000 Americans.
All along the invasion beaches, American troops would face coastal batteries, anti-landing obstacles and a network of heavily fortified pillboxes, bunkers, and underground fortresses. As Americans waded ashore, they would face intense artillery and mortar fire as they worked their way through concrete rubble and barbed-wire entanglements arranged to funnel them into the muzzles of these Japanese guns.
On the beaches and beyond would be hundreds of Japanese machine gun positions, beach mines, booby traps, trip-wire mines and sniper units. Suicide units concealed in “spider holes” would engage the troops as they passed nearby. In the heat of battle, Japanese infiltration units would be sent to reap havoc in the American lines by cutting phone and communication lines. Some of the Japanese troops would be in American uniform, English-speaking Japanese officers were assigned to break in on American radio traffic to call off artillery fire, to order retreats and to further confuse troops. Other infiltration with demolition charges strapped on their chests or backs wold attempt to blow up american tanks, artillery pieces and ammunition stores as they were unloaded ashore.
Beyond the beaches were large artillery pieces situated to bring down a curtain of fire on the beach. Some of these large guns were mounted on railroad tracks running in and out of caves protected by concrete and steel.
In the mountains behind the Japanese beaches were underground networks of caves, bunkers, command posts and hospitals connected by miles of tunnels with dozens of entrances and exits. Some of these complexes could hold up to 1,000 troops.
In addition to the use of poison gas and bacteriological warfare (which the Japanese had experimented with), Japan mobilized its citizenry.
Had Olympic come about, the Japanese civilian population, inflamed by a national slogan - “One Hundred Million Will Die for the Emperor and Nation” - were prepared to fight to the death. Twenty Eight Million Japanese had become a part of the National Volunteer Combat Force. They were armed with ancient rifles, lunge mines, satchel charges, Molotov cocktails and one-shot black powder mortars. Others were armed with swords, long bows, axes and bamboo spears. The civilian units were to be used in nighttime attacks, hit and run maneuvers, delaying actions and massive suicide charges at the weaker American positions.
At the early stage of the invasion, 1,000 Japanese and American soldiers would be dying every hour.
Intelligence studies and military estimates made 50 years ago, and not latter-day speculation, clearly indicate that the battle for Japan might well have resulted in the biggest blood-bath in the history of modern warfare.
The invasion of Japan never became a reality because on August 6, 1945, an atomic bomb was exploded over Hiroshima. Three days later, a second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. Within days the war with Japan was at a close.
W
Wolseley
Guest
I recommend the whole article, if you care to read it.
If nothing else, it puts paid to this nonsense about “innocent civilians”.
The “innocent civilians” were gearing up to kill American troops one by one, and constructing combat aircraft inside department stores.
If nothing else, it puts paid to this nonsense about “innocent civilians”.
The “innocent civilians” were gearing up to kill American troops one by one, and constructing combat aircraft inside department stores.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
You cannot use an act of God to justify an act of man. There is no parallel between them – men are not little gods.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
We say an act is intrinsically evil when it violates God’s law. God makes the laws, and what He does is beyond our criticism.
There is no god above God.
.
Yes and there are times when very drastic measures are justified in war.
However, don’t take a leaf from the pro-abortion book: “Seventy percent of all pregnancies end in natural abortions. Therefore God is an abortionist. Therefore abortion is not immoral.”
This is the same class of argument.
No one would disagree.
No, because it puts God on man’s level.
The bombing of cities may indeed be justified in some cases. But to say “It’s okay for us to do it because God did it once Himself” is wrong.
M
mjdonnelly
Guest
A civilian who picks up or is given a weapon is a combatant, not matter their sex/age.
M
mjdonnelly
Guest
vern humphrey:
That is why it has to depend on the situation. Just as it is permissible to attack a Church or Mosque given the correct stiuation.
B
Brendan
Guest
vern humphrey:
There is no evidence that God directly caused the natural abortions. God did, in fact directly case the destruction of Sodom.
Phillip’s premise was the the destruction of cites was objectively wrong, and my demostrantion was that it could not logically be so.
God does not violate His own laws.
You will also note that at no point did I say anything along the lines of "“It’s okay for us to do it because God did it once Himself”, in fact quite the opposite. I liked it to war. Sometimes there is Just War, but that does not mean that all war is just.
The same is true for municipal destruction.
Is it your contention then, that God would violate His own laws?
Ah, there is a difference there my friend.
There is no evidence that God directly caused the natural abortions. God did, in fact directly case the destruction of Sodom.
That right there is exactly my point, and the counter point to Phillip.
Phillip’s premise was the the destruction of cites was objectively wrong, and my demostrantion was that it could not logically be so.
God does not violate His own laws.
You will also note that at no point did I say anything along the lines of "“It’s okay for us to do it because God did it once Himself”, in fact quite the opposite. I liked it to war. Sometimes there is Just War, but that does not mean that all war is just.
The same is true for municipal destruction.
R
romano
Guest
**Well now, I’m not sure that this is what one would call a fine Christian sentiment, but it certainly indicates profound ignorance – an ignorance of history, an ignorance of what lies behind political decisions, an ignorance of the way the world works. You are, in short, a victim of the propaganda you have been spoon-fed since birth, and one of these fine days you may have cause to eat your own words.
The Japanese wished to surrender. There was no military justification whatsoever for the atomic bombings. That is simply a myth you have been fed. The truth is that, besides being an experiment that allowed scientists to indulge their curiosity about what would happen if such bombs were dropped on highly populated centers, the real aim of the bombings was to destroy Japan’s antiquated infrastructure. International bankers could then loan Japan vast sums of money to rebuild the country’s infrastructure along lines laid down by them so that Japan could be turned into a factory for the production of consumer products for the US market. This freed US industry to concentrate on the production of the big ticket items that generate the biggest profits – warships, planes, bombs, guns, etc.
In short, it all worked out very well. It worked out well for the scientists who created the bomb and who undoubtedly relished a perverse delight in seeing the Japanese allies of Hitler punished (and you should deeply ponder the significance of that). It also worked out extremely well for the bankers. But for decent human beings, both in Japan and elsewhere, it did not work out well. It was a profound psychological blow which has left a deep and abiding dread of nuclear weapons in everyone – everyone except those like wabrams who live with the curious delusion that they themselves will never become victims of such weapons. **
H
HagiaSophia
Guest
romano said:
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