Why Vatican II?

[bkovacs]

JREducation
Pope Saint Pius X was only a secular Franciscan. Not a Friar. As to the reason I posted those links. Is that you can see that the changes brought as a direct result of Vatican 2 are not so rosey. And you can see that the so called “Spirit of Vatican 2” people can not stand traditional Catholics. Vatican 2 was only one council and it was far from being superior to the previous councils. It does not set dogma of faith. As the Holy See has recently announced. Was there a reason for Vatican 2. It was meant to continue were Vatican 1 left off. But unfortunately the liberals had other ideas for Vatican 2. And after Vatican 2, the two thousand years of tradition went out the window. Some good things did come out of the council. But it did more damage than good in regards to Holy tradition.

 

[Robster7]

Note distinction below between capital T and small t tradition.

Re: Was everything Pre vatican II necessarily Tradition (apostolic); was some of it tradition (human)? Was pre Vatican II church perfect in all respects?

Jesus changed what some Jews of the time thought was Tradition re divorce in Mosaic law. He noted it was a tradition (an accommodation to circumstances, 'because you were so hard to teach" [Approx quote]; then he went back to the real Tradition from the beginning re marriage.

This had to be disturbing to the Jews at the time, if they took the Mosaic law as direct from God and unchangeable. If divorce was wrong, what else could be as outlined in Mosaic law? Which leads to interesting questions re annulment, by the way, but that’s another discussion. .

 

[bkovacs]

Note distinction below between capital T and small t tradition.

Re: Was everything Pre vatican II necessarily Tradition (apostolic); was some of it tradition (human)? Was pre Vatican II church perfect in all respects?

Jesus changed what some Jews of the time thought was Tradition re divorce in Mosaic law. He noted it was a tradition (an accommodation to circumstances, 'because you were so hard to teach" [Approx quote]; then he went back to the real Tradition from the beginning re marriage.

This had to be disturbing to the Jews at the time, if they took the Mosaic law as direct from God and unchangeable. If divorce was wrong, what else could be as outlined in Mosaic law? Which leads to interesting questions re annulment, by the way, but that’s another discussion. .

You should go talk to an Eastern Orthodox Monk and ask him if their entire Divine Liturgy and spirituality was apostolic or man made (human). Have you ever heard of Iconoclasm?. Similar to the post Vatican 2 liturgical mentality. Take out the altar rails, smash the statues. Sounds like a Protestant response. They to wanted all kinds of changes. And look where they stand now. The Anglican Church is so split, it will never heal!. They replaced tradition with modern day ideology. And Jesus was returning back to tradition. Like what the Pope wants to happen now!. Guitar music, EMHC’s, Altar girls, lay ecclessial ministers, etc the Catholics of the time, like the Jews of the times.

 

[Usagi]

*]For such a pressing issue for the Catholic Church, what’s been accomplished in the ensuing half century? I don’t know, but I think not much. It’s odd that a pressing cause of Council amounted to nothing. (Again, if I’m right.)

Certainly, there has been less progress than one could hope for, but there has been quite a bit, and in areas where we likely never would have expected it.

At least some among both Protestants and Orthodox are willing to talk to us, and we’ve drafted documents with some Lutherans (for example) indicating that the rupture over “justification by faith” may have been a matter of saying similar things in different words.

Even more impressively (though perhaps not as newsworthy as work with the big-name denominations), we’ve actually gone back and held discussions with some of the very ancient breakaway churches, the ones that didn’t even agree with the first seven ecumenical councils. There, too, it seems that both sides may actually have held to the same truths, but insisted on different words that seemed heretical to the other side. Shared communion with groups that have been on their own for most of Church history is pretty amazing.

These things happen because the groups involved are willing to sit down, talk, and listen, acknowledging their real differences but also making sure that the things they thought were differences really are. That’s real Vatican II-style ecumenism, and not the false ecumenism that some associate with the Council.

Usagi

 

[LeroyCRHP]

Procedural question, how do you post if you are banned.

I will give you a MANY reasons why Vatican II is so wrong…

 

[Spirithound]

Procedural question, how do you post if you are banned.

You do it before you get banned

 

[jean8]

It seems that Vatican II created at least a lot of confusion and at worst a huge chasm of controversy and lost souls. My question is, why did the church feel it necessary to call the council in the first place and why such a radical departure (apparently) from previous teachings of the church?

jeff,
What were the old teachings?
How do you define salvation?

jean8

 

[JReducation]

JREducation
Pope Saint Pius X was only a secular Franciscan. Not a Friar. As to the reason I posted those links. Is that you can see that the changes brought as a direct result of Vatican 2 are not so rosey. And you can see that the so called “Spirit of Vatican 2” people can not stand traditional Catholics. Vatican 2 was only one council and it was far from being superior to the previous councils. It does not set dogma of faith. As the Holy See has recently announced. Was there a reason for Vatican 2. It was meant to continue were Vatican 1 left off. But unfortunately the liberals had other ideas for Vatican 2. And after Vatican 2, the two thousand years of tradition went out the window. Some good things did come out of the council. But it did more damage than good in regards to Holy tradition.

The bold is mine.

I don’t think you intended to do so, but the way you wrote this offends 800 years of Church tradition, all of the Franciscan Orders, St. Pius X and all of the Secular Franciscan saints.

In saying that he was “only a secular Franciscan, not a friar” you are minimizing the Franciscan vocation of the Secular Order.

The Order of Secular Franciscans is a canonically erected secular religious order of Pontifical Right founded in 1221, with its own rule of life, approved by Pope Innocent III and given a Papal Bull by Pope Nicholas IV. The Bull was renewed by Pope Pius XII who declared once and for all, that the Secular Franciscan Order is a true religious order and its members are truly Franciscans. In 1978 Pope Paul VI declared that the Secular Franciscan Rule of Life is a valid rule that cannot be changed by anyone, except a pope. In 2008 Pope Benedict XVI declared that the religious profession of a Secular Franciscan is equal to that of a Franciscan Friar or a Poor Clare nun and that The Secular Franciscans are not subservient or less religious than their Franciscan brothers and sisters in the two other orders. In fact, they are truly an order, while many religious communities that bear the name Franciscans are not canonically religious orders, but religious congregations or secular institutes.

The profession that Pope Pius X made was the same profession made by the Friars Minor and the Poor Clare nuns. The wording is written into the rule by St. Francis himself and cannot and has never been changed.

“I, Brother NN, vow and promise to almighty God and to the Church to observe Gospel in the manner that was revealed to our holy father St. Francis, all the days of my life.”

The difference between the three orders is not the intensity of the profession, the degree of Franciscanism, the rule and obligations, but the context in which the Franciscan life is lived. The Friars live their Franciscan life in a community of lay brothers, with some priests, as mendicants. The Poor Clares live their Franciscan vocation in an enclosed community of nuns, not sisters, in prayer, silence and manual labor. The Brothers and Sisters of Penance (Secular Franciscans) live their Franciscan vocation among secular Catholics (thus the name secular) in fraternity, prayer, obedience, on-going conversion, Franciscan asceticism, defending the faith from the State and ministry to other Catholics.

Pope Pius X was buried with the Franciscan habit under his episcopal robes, which is still the tradition when a Secular Franciscan is a pope. Another pope who was a Secular Franciscan was Bl. John XXIII. Other famous men and women among these brothers and sisters include Thomas More, Thomas Beckett, the Franciscan Friars of the Eternal Word, the Third Order Regular Friars, Elizabeth of Hungary, Vincent de Paul, the St. John Vianney, St. Joan of Arc, St. Elizabeth of Hungary, St. Louis King of France and many other notable saints.

There have been millions of Secular Franciscan Brothers and Sisters. Presently there are 600,000 serving in 114 countries around the world. They are priests, deacons, bishops, married men and women, consecrated lay men and women, missionaries, teachers, catechists, nurses and many more.

If you are going to defend tradition and minimize Vatican II, you may want to be very careful. Because there are some things that have been part of the Church’s tradition for centuries.

As to the articles, there was nothing wrong with what Vatican II called religious and secular institutes to do. They called us to return to the roots of our founders. In essence, they told us to recover our traditions. This is what my community and many others are trying to implement. From the French Revolution to Vatican II, religious were absorbed into apostolic work at the expense of religious life to such a degree that religious houses, especially houses of men resembled rectories.

Rectories were established in England for secular priests. Religious men were never to be secular priests or perform the functions and duties of secular priests. None of the religious orders of men were founded to run parishes and very few of the religious congregations of men were founded to do so either. Most were founded to live monastic life, as lay brothers with some priests, as itinerant preachers, as missionaries, or to perform other ministries.

In fact, to recover their Franciscan roots the Friars Minor have to limit the number of men that they ordain. Serving in parishes is the duty of Secular Franciscans who are priests or friars, not the Friars Minor. You will see less and less Friars Minor in parishes and less ordained Friars Minor. You will see an increase in Friars Minor in other con clerical ministries.

I don’t see what is wrong with the directive of Perfectae Caritatis in Vatican II when it tells us to go back to that. It’s sending us back to tradition, a tradition that has been supported and approved by the Church for 800 years as of September 2009.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[killyclogher]

Where I grew up our priests and laity have been martyred for centuries for practicing the Faith of our Fathers. In my grandparents day we held mass’s in caves and also secretly in homes. We had betrayers who got a bounty for each priest who was turned over. Thousands of priests (and laity) were martyred over the centuries. I grew up in easier times and was just taunted w/ name calling, such as, whore, whore of babylon, Jezebel, go back to Rome (by transplanters), romish, papist, latinists, etc., didn’t have a vote, housing, jobs, etc. We fought them all the way and would have died for our Church. Then came Vat II who conformed exactly to the demands of our ‘enemies’. We were even instructed to say the Protestant Paper Noster, sing their hymns and farewell to Latin. We were betrayed. These Protestant changes destroyed the Church/Parish/Community bond. I left the Church as did 6 more of 9 siblings, as did most of my friends. It’s only through the grace of God I’m back but the rest of my siblings are not nor have their kids been brought up as Catholics. They’re humanists now. I sent mine to a Catholic school and she learned how to become a secularist. Vat II destroyed many families. Sad.

 

[JReducation]

Where I grew up our priests and laity have been martyred for centuries for practicing the Faith of our Fathers. In my grandparents day we held mass’s in caves and also secretly in homes. We had betrayers who got a bounty for each priest who was turned over. Thousands of priests (and laity) were martyred over the centuries. I grew up in easier times and was just taunted w/ name calling, such as, whore, whore of babylon, Jezebel, go back to Rome (by transplanters), romish, papist, latinists, etc., didn’t have a vote, housing, jobs, etc. We fought them all the way and would have died for our Church. Then came Vat II who conformed exactly to the demands of our ‘enemies’. We were even instructed to say the Protestant Paper Noster, sing their hymns and farewell to Latin. We were betrayed. These Protestant changes destroyed the Church/Parish/Community bond. I left the Church as did 6 more of 9 siblings, as did most of my friends. It’s only through the grace of God I’m back but the rest of my siblings are not nor have their kids been brought up as Catholics. They’re humanists now. I sent mine to a Catholic school and she learned how to become a secularist. Vat II destroyed many families. Sad.

First of all, Vatican II did not destroy any families or the Church. There were people who ran with the statements of Vatican II and did what many do with the Bible. They started to quote things out of context and use it that way. When things are taken out of context, there is a danger of losing the message. This has happened after every single Council in the Church. Vatican II is not the exception. My own community was founded in response to the world that followed the Lateran Council in 1209. It took 50 years for the dust to settle and the Lateran Council to be implemented correctly.

We do not pray the Protestant Our Father, because there is no such thing. The doxology that we pray at mass is part of an ancient custom that had been suspended in the Church. When the Protestant Reformation occurred they recovered this ancient custom. The Catholic Church recovered it when it renewed the liturgy. However, if you notice, the doxology is not attached to Lord’s Prayer. It is said separately.

The Latin was never taken away. If you watch the mass on EWTN the Franciscans still use the Latin, but they use the Ordinary Form of the mass promulgated by Paul VI. It’s the exact same form as is used in modern languages. The celebrant has the option of using Latin or modern language.

The Tridentine mass was not always the form of the mass in the Catholic Church. It was put together by the Franciscans little by little and the Council of Trent polished it and promulgated it. Nonetheless, it took 50 years to get it right. Pius V came up with the final form for it.

All of these things are not new in the Church. The Church is always in a state of self-examination and renewal. As our holy father Francis always told us, we have to be patient because the Holy Spirit does not work in our time frame or in the manner that we want. He works through human beings and through human limitations. Things take time to take shape. It took almost 400 years for the Church to come out with a formal declaration that Jesus is truly God and Man. It was always believed, but the how was debated from day one of the Church’s existence. If a dogma takes 400 years to state it correctly, 50 or 60 years to correct the details in the mass is not a long time.

Be patient my friend. All things happen and all things fall into place when there is love, patience and trust.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[banjo]

For anyone interested, Star of the Bay Press; 2008, has published a book intitled The Signs of The Times: Understanding The Church Since Vatican II; Fr. Richard W. Gilsdorf. I just receved it last Friday so I can’t offer any commentary as yet.

 

[killyclogher]

First of all, Vatican II did not destroy any families or the Church. There were people who ran with the statements of Vatican II and did what many do with the Bible. They started to quote things out of context and use it that way. When things are taken out of context, there is a danger of losing the message. This has happened after every single Council in the Church. Vatican II is not the exception. My own community was founded in response to the world that followed the Lateran Council in 1209. It took 50 years for the dust to settle and the Lateran Council to be implemented correctly.

We do not pray the Protestant Our Father, because there is no such thing. The doxology that we pray at mass is part of an ancient custom that had been suspended in the Church. When the Protestant Reformation occurred they recovered this ancient custom. The Catholic Church recovered it when it renewed the liturgy. However, if you notice, the doxology is not attached to Lord’s Prayer. It is said separately.

The Latin was never taken away. If you watch the mass on EWTN the Franciscans still use the Latin, but they use the Ordinary Form of the mass promulgated by Paul VI. It’s the exact same form as is used in modern languages. The celebrant has the option of using Latin or modern language.

The Tridentine mass was not always the form of the mass in the Catholic Church. It was put together by the Franciscans little by little and the Council of Trent polished it and promulgated it. Nonetheless, it took 50 years to get it right. Pius V came up with the final form for it.

All of these things are not new in the Church. The Church is always in a state of self-examination and renewal. As our holy father Francis always told us, we have to be patient because the Holy Spirit does not work in our time frame or in the manner that we want. He works through human beings and through human limitations. Things take time to take shape. It took almost 400 years for the Church to come out with a formal declaration that Jesus is truly God and Man. It was always believed, but the how was debated from day one of the Church’s existence. If a dogma takes 400 years to state it correctly, 50 or 60 years to correct the details in the mass is not a long time.

Be patient my friend. All things happen and all things fall into place when there is love, patience and trust.

Fraternally,

JR

JReducation, I was there and watched it happen before my very eyes. The Church took the Protestant Our Father by adopting their ending. I know because it was used as yet another taunt along with the switch to English from Latin and also adopting their hymns. They even taunted us about the Protestant pastors who went to “papish Rome” and helped make the “correct” changes. See, they said, we were right. We were betrayed - plain and simple. You didn’t live where I grew up so you really don’t know. These and other changes destroyed our close links with the Church. How could they turn against us was the cry. It also destroyed my family and many others. I visit home often and where Mass’s were so full there was standing room only flowing out onto the street - now there are empty pews. You can dispute it but until you’ve walked in my shoes you don’t really know. They even brought in the distracting dancing girls, folk singers and guitars to tempt but to no avail. You are talking about people who used to stop in their tracts in the street or anywhere they happened to be to pray the the Angelus when the bell rang. Fasting and Mass before school every day. Stations of the Cross every Friday. Confessions every Saturday. I have fond memories of going out for walks to pick flowers for the May Altar etc. Vat II was an injustice. It deprived people of their Catholic Heritage for which many were martyred.

When I came back my biggest shock was seeing people standing and Receiving Him into their dirty hands. The distracting standing and sitting and not enough kneeling gives no time to prepare to Receive and when one was really getting into preparation one has to stand and shake hands with people who had just blown their nose. All this activity leaves no time to meditate and really get into the magnitude of what’s really Happening. The loud talking before and after inside the Church was also a shock. I remember in the past even when ones shoes would make a noise people would tiptoe so as not to distract people who were praying or someone would whisper to ask a question about something even then people would frown and forget it when there’s a Baptism after Mass which happens often so one can’t even stay over to pray - it’s a total free for all. There was a reason the Baptismal Font was in the back of the Church. It could have been a service by the High Church of England which I’ve attended in the past.

EWTN has a beautiful Mass and set a great example but unfortunately they are the exception. I’m one of the lucky ones who live where there’s a respectful NO Mass so much so that people come from other parishes to attend. I tolerate the Mass in English, even the Protestant Our Father (for thine is the Kingdom etc), but those Protestant hymns which no one can sing have gotta go.

 

[JReducation]

JReducation, I was there and watched it happen before my very eyes. The Church took the Protestant Our Father by adopting their ending. I know because it was used as yet another taunt along with the switch to English from Latin and also adopting their hymns. They even taunted us about the Protestant pastors who went to “papish Rome” and helped make the “correct” changes. See, they said, we were right. We were betrayed - plain and simple. You didn’t live where I grew up so you really don’t know. These and other changes destroyed our close links with the Church. How could they turn against us was the cry. It also destroyed my family and many others. I visit home often and where Mass’s were so full there was standing room only flowing out onto the street - now there are empty pews. You can dispute it but until you’ve walked in my shoes you don’t really know. They even brought in the distracting dancing girls, folk singers and guitars to tempt but to no avail. You are talking about people who used to stop in their tracts in the street or anywhere they happened to be to pray the the Angelus when the bell rang. Fasting and Mass before school every day. Stations of the Cross every Friday. Confessions every Saturday. I have fond memories of going out for walks to pick flowers for the May Altar etc. Vat II was an injustice. It deprived people of their Catholic Heritage for which many were martyred.

When I came back my biggest shock was seeing people standing and Receiving Him into their dirty hands. The distracting standing and sitting and not enough kneeling gives no time to prepare to Receive and when one was really getting into preparation one has to stand and shake hands with people who had just blown their nose. All this activity leaves no time to meditate and really get into the magnitude of what’s really Happening. The loud talking before and after inside the Church was also a shock. I remember in the past even when ones shoes would make a noise people would tiptoe so as not to distract people who were praying or someone would whisper to ask a question about something even then people would frown and forget it when there’s a Baptism after Mass which happens often so one can’t even stay over to pray - it’s a total free for all. There was a reason the Baptismal Font was in the back of the Church. It could have been a service by the High Church of England which I’ve attended in the past.

EWTN has a beautiful Mass and set a great example but unfortunately they are the exception. I’m one of the lucky ones who live where there’s a respectful NO Mass so much so that people come from other parishes to attend. I tolerate the Mass in English, even the Protestant Our Father (for thine is the Kingdom etc), but those Protestant hymns which no one can sing have gotta go.

I don’t know where you live. We have a parish that has 7 masses every Sunday. The Church holds about 800 and there is always a crowd standing in the back. We have two brothers hearing confessions every Saturday for an hour. On days when he have penance services we have two brothers and three secular priests hearing confessions for two or more hours. Every Thurs night we have adoration of the Blessed Sacrament for the youth and there are about 200 kids or more from 6 to 8. There are stations of the cross during lent, four parish retreats a year, may crownings, adoration on the feast of Corpus Christi, a Life Teen Mass on Sundays with 1,000 kids and their families, and 65 different parish ministries run by lay ministers.

We have communion in the hand, standing, masses for all tastes from organ to guitar, mass in English, French and Spanish. None of our friars speak Latin.

I don’t know why you insist on calling it the Protestant Our Father. The doxology, “for thine is the kingdom, etc” is as Catholic as the Pope. It was used before the time of Jesus until the 4th century of the Church and is still used by the Orthodox. Roman Catholics recovered it in the 1960s. The Protestants recovered it in the 1500s.

We also have a religious community of 7 friars who run the parish. The oldest is 43. That’s a young community. Three are ordained. The superior is not ordained, but he is a theologian. The pastor who is beneath him is ordained. There is another ordained friar who is an associate and another non ordained friar who is an associate. The other ordained friar is a mental health therapist with Catholic Charities and the other friars work with the school and the local hospital.

We also have a community of 40 Secular Franciscan brothers and sisters who are contemplatives or active in the pro-life apostolate

This is what a post Vatican II parish is supposed to look like. I’m sorry that you feel so hurt by all of this. But in some places it is doing wonders for the Church.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[killyclogher]

I don’t know where you live. We have a parish that has 7 masses every Sunday. The Church holds about 800 and there is always a crowd standing in the back. We have two brothers hearing confessions every Saturday for an hour. On days when he have penance services we have two brothers and three secular priests hearing confessions for two or more hours. Every Thurs night we have adoration of the Blessed Sacrament for the youth and there are about 200 kids or more from 6 to 8. There are stations of the cross during lent, four parish retreats a year, may crownings, adoration on the feast of Corpus Christi, a Life Teen Mass on Sundays with 1,000 kids and their families, and 65 different parish ministries run by lay ministers.

We have communion in the hand, standing, masses for all tastes from organ to guitar, mass in English, French and Spanish. None of our friars speak Latin.

I don’t know why you insist on calling it the Protestant Our Father. The doxology, “for thine is the kingdom, etc” is as Catholic as the Pope. It was used before the time of Jesus until the 4th century of the Church and is still used by the Orthodox. Roman Catholics recovered it in the 1960s. The Protestants recovered it in the 1500s.

We also have a religious community of 7 friars who run the parish. The oldest is 43. That’s a young community. Three are ordained. The superior is not ordained, but he is a theologian. The pastor who is beneath him is ordained. There is another ordained friar who is an associate and another non ordained friar who is an associate. The other ordained friar is a mental health therapist with Catholic Charities and the other friars work with the school and the local hospital.

We also have a community of 40 Secular Franciscan brothers and sisters who are contemplatives or active in the pro-life apostolate

This is what a post Vatican II parish is supposed to look like. I’m sorry that you feel so hurt by all of this. But in some places it is doing wonders for the Church.

Fraternally,

JR

I was mainly talking about where I grew up, which is N Ireland, and doing a comparison of my Parish from then and now. Happy your Parish is doing well. Have you done a comparison? My current Parish, which has a respectful NO, is also doing well but thereagain people come from other parishes which makes one wonder how well their Parishes are doing. I don’t know it well enough to know. I currently live a 20min train ride from Manhattan.

As for the Our Father - one lives and learns - we were kids and so ingrained that they owned it we never thought to look it up. Thanks for setting me straight after all these years. Few people understand the strife which was N Ireland and how much we depended on the Church. We were hurt and angry at the time, all water under the bridge, unfortunately the fallout remains.

 

[PJM]

I see Vatican II like the Council of Trent. You are right about reaffirming every single teaching, just as Trent did in the reformation era

Dear friend in Christ,

I’m going to show my ignorance here, but that good for my humility

I have read the documents of both Councils (and others), but these two in particular, and I frankly fail to see the comparison.

First, because the factors leading to these two Councils were vastly different.

Second, because Trent actually defined Dogma and Church Doctrines, is a way that I don’t see in Vatican II.

I am nowhere near being an expert on the matter, nor is that a goal of mine, but I would like to gain a better understanding of your claim.

My personal and limited understanding puts Trent right up there with the First Council of Nicea. But again, that just a laymans take.

I do recogonize that Vatican II has had a profound effect of faith practices, specifically, the Sacred Liturgy. But again, my perception and understanding, is that Vatican II was simply a tool that opened futher the door of disent with Rome and the Authority
defined in vatican I, on the power of the Primacy of Peter.

I truly look forward to your opinions.

God bless you my friend.

 

[bkovacs]

Very sad Killyclogher. JReducation look at the statistics. It is not better by a long shot. Maybe for those who never knew what the church was like before V2 it is, but not for many of the traditionalists who love the traditions of the past. The reverence, silence, mysticism. I remember being an altar boy, the altar rails, holding the incense, lighting all those candles, holding the patten, setting up for Mass. All these things are now a thing of the past in most parishes. Most of the tasks, which were done by altar boys (servers) are now done by lay people. I am glad to see you have found your calling as a Secular Franciscan. But you need to look beyond your own community. To the others in the church, who want nothing more than a return to the traditions of the Catholic church that have existed for thousands of years. Yes the Mass of 1962 is one of those traditions, but also the rubrics, and spirituality. These traditions must live on. This is what traditionalists fight for. This is why Marcel Lefebvre did what he did. He wanted the traditions to live on. Even the Franciscan traditions of the past. Example, for the Dominicans, it was the ancient Dominican Liturgy. Very beautiful and mystical compared to the modern day Dominican Mass, which is nothing more than the NO Mass. Please do me a favor. Frequent the New Liturgical Movement, WDTPRS by Fr Zuhlsdorf, Rorate Caeli, and various other traditional Catholic websites to get a better understanding of where we are coming from. You will like what you see, and will learn allot about the Catholic church and it’s traditions.

 

[Tsuwano]

Very sad Killyclogher. JReducation look at the statistics. It is not better by a long shot. Maybe for those who never knew what the church was like before V2 it is, but not for many of the traditionalists who love the traditions of the past. The reverence, silence, mysticism. I remember being an altar boy, the altar rails, holding the incense, lighting all those candles, holding the patten, setting up for Mass. All these things are now a thing of the past in most parishes. Most of the tasks, which were done by altar boys (servers) are now done by lay people. I am glad to see you have found your calling as a Secular Franciscan. But you need to look beyond your own community. To the others in the church, who want nothing more than a return to the traditions of the Catholic church that have existed for thousands of years. Yes the Mass of 1962 is one of those traditions, but also the rubrics, and spirituality. These traditions must live on. This is what traditionalists fight for. This is why Marcel Lefebvre did what he did. He wanted the traditions to live on. Even the Franciscan traditions of the past. Example, for the Dominicans, it was the ancient Dominican Liturgy. Very beautiful and mystical compared to the modern day Dominican Mass, which is nothing more than the NO Mass. Please do me a favor. Frequent the New Liturgical Movement, WDTPRS by Fr Zuhlsdorf, Rorate Caeli, and various other traditional Catholic websites to get a better understanding of where we are coming from. You will like what you see, and will learn allot about the Catholic church and it’s traditions.

Many of the things you mention as being a mark of the pre Vatican II Church are still very much present in the present Church. In my parish, and many other parishes where I’ve attended mass, reverence, silence and a sense of mysticism and prayer continue to be part of the way we approach our Lord in the Liturgy. Candles are always present on the altar and incense is often used when appropriate. Some things are missing in many churches, such as altar rails, but many would argue this is a good thing. Altar boys, or servers, unless they are Deacons, are lay people. Besides, we continue to use altar servers in our church during every liturgy. I remember the pre Vatican II Church too, but I have no desire to return to it and I certainly don’t see Marcel Lefebvre in the same positive light that many others do. Are there problems within the Church? Of course there are. There were problems in the pre Vatican II Church as well. These problems can be solved by trusting that the Holy Spirit guides, and has always guided, the Church, and will never abandon us. Trust and hope are also signs of a mature Christian faith.

 

[LeroyCRHP]

The past two churches I have attended, each for about 10 years doubled in parishers while I was there and each had major expansions while I was there. Present church is ~4000 families or about 12,000 people. There are 7 masses and most at standing room only even with the expansion. Very alive, spiritual, faithful, reverent parish. The parking lot has many cars in it every day at all hours. Our 4 priests are super and very connected. Next weekend we have Destination Jesus where >850 teenagers will gather for a weekend. Our Bishop is coming and really is a great time for the teenagers. Of course a mass with 1500 people in it is different than a mass with 30 in it like I attended at the local TLM mass. I keep having this feeling like some people are stuck in time, even when the church has spoken, ie Vatican II. There is also personal accountability and for myself growing up with no religion, going through RCIA when I was 32 and without the church I would not be as blessed as I am and I consider myself more blessed than I can ever give back. I know there are dying parishes, the one’s I know of are also in dying towns or dying part of town and that is sad. My cradle catholic wife’s parish is dying as most have moved away for jobs so the parish suffers and the neighborhood goes down but that is something other than what the Catholic Church is doing. When the Pope speads, I listen through my local Priests. I think that is the right thing as a parisher. If they say we are singing Gregorian chants or whatever, I’ll listen and be there. >1Billion Catholics can’t be wrong… What is that little saying week that has* “I believe in the one holy catholic and apostolic church”* GLORY TO THE ONE CATHOLIC CHURCH!

Many of the things you mention as being a mark of the pre Vatican II Church are still very much present in the present Church. In my parish, and many other parishes where I’ve attended mass, reverence, silence and a sense of mysticism and prayer continue to be part of the way we approach our Lord in the Liturgy. Candles are always present on the altar and incense is often used when appropriate. Some things are missing in many churches, such as altar rails, but many would argue this is a good thing. Altar boys, or servers, unless they are Deacons, are lay people. Besides, we continue to use altar servers in our church during every liturgy. I remember the pre Vatican II Church too, but I have no desire to return to it and I certainly don’t see Marcel Lefebvre in the same positive light that many others do. Are there problems within the Church? Of course there are. There were problems in the pre Vatican II Church as well. These problems can be solved by trusting that the Holy Spirit guides, and has always guided, the Church, and will never abandon us. Trust and hope are also signs of a mature Christian faith.

 

[JReducation]

Very sad Killyclogher. JReducation look at the statistics. It is not better by a long shot. Maybe for those who never knew what the church was like before V2 it is, but not for many of the traditionalists who love the traditions of the past. The reverence, silence, mysticism. I remember being an altar boy, the altar rails, holding the incense, lighting all those candles, holding the patten, setting up for Mass. All these things are now a thing of the past in most parishes. Most of the tasks, which were done by altar boys (servers) are now done by lay people. I am glad to see you have found your calling as a Secular Franciscan. But you need to look beyond your own community. To the others in the church, who want nothing more than a return to the traditions of the Catholic church that have existed for thousands of years. Yes the Mass of 1962 is one of those traditions, but also the rubrics, and spirituality. These traditions must live on. This is what traditionalists fight for.

I thank you for your kind response. There are a few points that I’d like to speak to. Do not assume that I have no familiarity with the statistics. I’ve been involved in pastoral care since 1969 in four dioceses in the United States, a diocese in South America and the Diocese of Rome.

I spent many years in religious formation to become a Franciscan, from undergraduate to STD in Franciscan Theology and Mysticism. I am not unfamiliar with theology and liturgy, nor am I unsympathetic tot he feelings of those who call themselves traditionalists. How could I be, when I belong to a religious family that has a tradition that will celebrate its 800th birthday this September.

I am not a Secular Franciscan. I am a Secular Franciscan Brother. We are a cell of the Secular Franciscan Order. We profess the egangelical councils, live in community, and are active in pastoral care, especially to the poor, elderly, disabled and do a great deal of spiritual direction with diocesan priests. Don’t think that I do not understand these men and what they have to deal with on a day to day basis trying to run parishes and meet the demands of the laity, which are often unreasonable, because the laity expects these men to live and work as if they were religious, when they are not. They are secular men who are priests.

Many of the traditions before Vatican II are not thousands of years old. For example, Gregorian chant was resurrrected in the 19th century after not being used in public for several centuries. It was maintained by the Benedictine Monks as their exclusive form of prayer. It was not the desire or the goal of the Benedictines to make this the form of prayer of the secular world. This was introduced by the Carolingian movement of the 12th and 13th centuries. It fell into disuse when the famous organ compositions were introduced into the liturgy. As I sadi above, rediscovered in the 19th century. It has nothing to do with Pope Greogory. It was given his name as a marketing tool by the Carolingian movement. Nonetheless, it is a beautiful way to pray and I and many others are sympathetic and appreciative of it.

To show how it was not a universal tradition, I will give you one simple example. Franciscan Friars and Secular Franciscans were forbidden to use it as a form of prayer by St. Francis himself. The rule clearly states that the psalms and prayers of the mass for the Franciscan orer are to be recited, not chanted. Francis wrote hymns using popular Italian melodies using the Italian language for his brothers and sisters to use in worship. This tradition has been maintained among Franciscans for 800 years, until Pope Paul VI told the Franciscans tha they could chant.

The other points that you make about silence, altar servers, lighting the candles, incense and so forth are very present in many parishes around the world. They may not be present in every parish or used less, but they are not gone by any stretch of the imagination.

The Dominican rite was never abrogated by Vatican II. It was an order than came from the General Chapter of the Order of Preachers. This was their decision to make the rite available on a case by case basis. It is up to the local prior.

The Franciscans never abrogated the Tridentine mass. It was the decision of the General Chapter of 1972 where the brothers ordered the Superior General to adopt the Pauline revisions of the mass as the ordinary form for the Order. To this day, the General Chapter has determined that the Ordinary Form of the mass remains the ordinary form for the order as well. A superior may give permission for an ordained friar to celebrate the extraordinary form. This has not been taken away. Some friars have asked for the permission and it has been granted provided that there is pastoral need for it. There is a sensitivity to the needs of groups of people, when such groups exist in large numbers and when the celebration of such liturgies is not in conflict with the local community of religious. Religious superiors have an obligation to protect their communities from divisions, before they entertain the wishes of the laity.

In the case of secular or diocesan priests, that is up to the local bishop. He is their Ordinary. Religious working for the local bishop must also subscribe to his policies.

But there is holiness out there if you look for it. There is also sympathy and a desire to supply for the needs of those who call themselves Traditionalists. However, in order to do so, clergy cannot be forced. They must feel comfortable with some of these older customs. There has to be fairness to both sides so that the mass does not become a source of contention. That would be totally inappropriate and offensive to the sacred sacrifice of the mass.

I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[bkovacs]

The more I learn about the ordinary form and all the changes that have taken place. The more I begin to realize that this is not the Catholic church i grew up with. Nor is it a Catholic church that I am comfortable in. I hate and despise what Protestantism has done. It has taken Christianity and watered it down so much. And unfortunately the mainstream Catholic church has also been watered down tremendously thanks in part to pleasing Protestants. Sure you may think that Catholic church is growing, but it is due not to tradition, but in suiting the demands of all kinds of people. This is definately not Roman Catholicism. I often say to myself how can the Catholic church ever become united with the Eastern Orthodox churches, with such a Protestant mentality in Catholicism, and I realize it can’t. Many Protestants are converting to the Orthodox church, but they are not changing anything. They are coming over because they want a traditional church. Not a church that tries to cater to all sorts of people. I would not be surprised at all if in the future their will be another huge schism take place once again in the Catholic church. And this will be all over tradition, modernism and Vatican 2. Don’t be surprised!. But this time, the modern day Catholic church may become Popeless. And the traditional Catholic church will retain both Rome and the Pope.