Why Vatican II?

[Robster7]

Didn’t have time to find/see what I originally wrote. The following questions are purely speculative; I don’t claim they are conclusive; just some things to think about. There was good and bad stuff before V2, there was good and bad stuff after.

The question of how deep the Catholic faith was before V2 when the numbers in church on Sunday and in seminaries looked good is just one of many.

I would wonder how many people actually followed along during Mass, back then, knew what was going on, or were just there to fulfil their Sunday obligation.

As for the long lines for confession, I would wonder how deep was their understanding of the sacrament. A laundry list?

I understand that before Vatican 2, relatively few folks took communion at Mass.

 

[snshn3800]

Didn’t have time to find/see what I originally wrote. The following questions are purely speculative; I don’t claim they are conclusive; just some things to think about. There was good and bad stuff before V2, there was good and bad stuff after.

The question of how deep the Catholic faith was before V2 when the numbers in church on Sunday and in seminaries looked good is just one of many.

Having been there…in my opinion…Catholic faith was expressed much more pre-
Vatican II. There were many services, as well as Mass, that were very well attended.

I would wonder how many people actually followed along during Mass, back then, knew what was going on, or were just there to fulfil their Sunday obligation.

We knew very well what was going on…prayer books were used that had English alongside Latin. I am sure that there were people who attended just to fulfill their Sunday obligation, just like today. But today…rules “seem” so lax, or there is a major lack of education/instruction in our Faith, that alot of people simply don’t attend at all.

As for the long lines for confession, I would wonder how deep was their understanding of the sacrament. A laundry list?

Laundry list, maybe…but at least we had a sense of sin back then, that seems very lacking today. And everyone knew what the Sacrament was about…and went regularly to obtain forgiveness and Sanctifying Grace.

I understand that before Vatican 2, relatively few folks took communion at Mass.

I do not see this as true, but if it was…it was out of respect and fear of committing sacrilege…which seems to be totally absent, today.

 

[missal]

I do not see this as true, but if it was…it was out of respect and fear of committing sacrilege…which seems to be totally absent, today.

Here’s an example of what V2 has done…(why there aren’t any convents/nuns left)

Nearby we have a "Mercy Center which was founded in Ireland in the 1800’s. The diocese here in CT. offered it to the Sisters of Mercy, (1948). It accomodated some 200 novitiates. Those numbers began to decline following V2 in the early 1960’'s which introduced a number of liberal rulings…They dissolved into outside ministries-recommended by V2 “of the times” Since then it has morphed into what is now called a conference and retreat center for HUMAN DEVELOPMENT. It’s now about ‘self-improvement’. It is now owned and run by a selfmade business woman and longtime Buddhist and spiritual director… It contains many programs on Cosmology and Susainability; Buddhist teachings;exploration into the feminine divine. One of the members belongs to the Dominican Sisters of Caldwell, NJ
describes herself as “…having been formed by the three rivers which have shaped the regions of NJ…”
You know- what is the worse part of this is- that it also provides on it’s ‘acres of property’
retreats for Catholics! And they go there!

 

[snshn3800]

Here’s an example of what V2 has done…(why there aren’t any convents/nuns left)

Nearby we have a "Mercy Center which was founded in Ireland in the 1800’s. The diocese here in CT. offered it to the Sisters of Mercy, (1948). It accomodated some 200 novitiates. Those numbers began to decline following V2 in the early 1960’'s which introduced a number of liberal rulings…They dissolved into outside ministries-recommended by V2 “of the times” Since then it has morphed into what is now called a conference and retreat center for HUMAN DEVELOPMENT. It’s now about ‘self-improvement’. It is now owned and run by a selfmade business woman and longtime Buddhist and spiritual director… It contains many programs on Cosmology and Susainability; Buddhist teachings;exploration into the feminine divine. One of the members belongs to the Dominican Sisters of Caldwell, NJ
describes herself as “…having been formed by the three rivers which have shaped the regions of NJ…”
You know- what is the worse part of this is- that it also provides on it’s ‘acres of property’
retreats for Catholics! And they go there!

 

[bobzills]

Here’s an example of what V2 has done…(why there aren’t any convents/nuns left)

Nearby we have a "Mercy Center which was founded in Ireland in the 1800’s. The diocese here in CT. offered it to the Sisters of Mercy, (1948). It accomodated some 200 novitiates. Those numbers began to decline following V2 in the early 1960’'s which introduced a number of liberal rulings…They dissolved into outside ministries-recommended by V2 “of the times” Since then it has morphed into what is now called a conference and retreat center for HUMAN DEVELOPMENT. It’s now about ‘self-improvement’. It is now owned and run by a selfmade business woman and longtime Buddhist and spiritual director… It contains many programs on Cosmology and Susainability; Buddhist teachings;exploration into the feminine divine. One of the members belongs to the Dominican Sisters of Caldwell, NJ
describes herself as “…having been formed by the three rivers which have shaped the regions of NJ…”
You know- what is the worse part of this is- that it also provides on it’s ‘acres of property’
retreats for Catholics! And they go there!

 

[Layman]

You know, this may be why the Jewish patriarchs stuck with male rabbis. At the very least mature men are not likely to go in for displays which make them look stupid.

This sort of thing looks very like paganism come 'round again. Neo-pagansim. Paganism Californian-style; “we’ve got the narcissism and vagueness down pat but we’re not sacrificing virgins just yet”. Queer, in the old-fashioned sense of that word.

Also useless in the face of the certainty of the death of one’s body.

 

[Robster7]

I was just throwing out some topics for discussion. For me, it is difficult to ascertain what was true about the Pre V2 church as opposed to traditionalist view of a lost golden age or the progressivist view of an unenlightened dark age.

I can appreciate the genuine improvements gained by V2 without ignoring the abuses of the phrase “the spirit of V2” used to justify so much nonsense and worse.

I can also appreciate the beauty and solemnity of a Latin high mass and also appreciate the participation allowed by the vernacular Mass.

I grew up in the post V2 Church by the way.

 

[snshn3800]

I was just throwing out some topics for discussion. For me, it is difficult to ascertain what was true about the Pre V2 church as opposed to traditionalist view of a lost golden age or the progressivist view of an unenlightened dark age.

I can appreciate the genuine improvements gained by V2 without ignoring the abuses of the phrase “the spirit of V2” used to justify so much nonsense and worse.

I can also appreciate the beauty and solemnity of a Latin high mass and also appreciate the participation allowed by the vernacular Mass.

I grew up in the post V2 Church by the way.

So sorry. Post-Vatican II Catholic’s have missed so much of our beautiful heritage and Traditions.

 

[lisa09]

So sorry. Post-Vatican II Catholic’s have missed so much of our beautiful heritage and Traditions.

Forgiveness. Pre VII, the mass was really good. After VII, the people just did what they really want to.

 

[portarica]

In general, portarica, you seem to be expressing the attitude or view that is sometimes called “the hermeneutic of rupture,” a way of interpreting Vatican II, kinda like this:
There was a Bad Old Church from which we can’t distance ourselves enough, and from which there isn’t much for us to learn.
But now, thanks to us, we have a Good New Church.

Personally, I’m convinced that things aren’t that simple.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Jesus was all about the growth of faith. His was an optimistic view of man’s potential to do good for the least among us. He also recognized man’s frailties and made forgiveness a central concept among his teachings.

And in probably the greatest stroke of wisdom, His parables remain timeless and applicable to any situation. While some teachings of the church were predicated upon the authority of the church to determine their nature and as a result have suffered with the ravages of time. The teachings in the parables are not determined by their timing or their audience.

V2 had seemed to lead to more transparency and a greater acceptance of Jesus’ message not just because of the insurance policy nature being a member of a particular religion, but because it was the right message for man.

V2 made for a better church , a church that grew to fit better the garments that Jesus laid out.

But an unfortunate side effect was that following Jesus’ message of proactively treating the least like they could be Him,is much more difficult than just believing the apostles creed and getting one’s personal butt into heaven.

It is not only harder to believe that we should be acting like Jesus wanted us to do, but it harder to hide the fact that we are not acting as Christ instructed, while we could still be meeting all the tenants of the pre-V2 church.

V2 was more clearly lighting not only the path to Jesus, but Jesus’ path. That was different tact for the church to take and one that it still struggles with today.

Jesus was not do as I say not as I do. The toughest thing for any individual to do is to put our faith into action in each and every action we take. That is evident in every facet of our lives.

The pre V2 church didn’t ask us as catholics to do what Jesus taught. It still really doesn’t hold our feet to the fire and for that matter it doesn’t ask the temporal church authorities to act as Jesus did.

So we are left in limbo so to speak, we don’t have to act as Jesus taught to be good catholics, but we are told He is the only form of salvation.

I think He had some better things in mind for the church and I don’t think we should misplace the confidence that Jesus had in mankind to make this a better world.

Peace