Why was abstaining from meat considered a penance if it was a relatively rare luxury for many?

[Vico]

Funny you mention this. The Cathar Perfects didnot eat meat.You can look up their beiefs why.They ate fish because it was believed it didn’t reproduce exactly like say a cow would through intercourse. These were the leaders of their church.For ordinary believers who were married and had children, the dietery issue of meat may have been different. The Church launched a crusade against them, considering them heretics.

For fish, what I read is that some Cathars did not eat fish, others did. This was because of a belief that the soul of animal could be imprisoned if it was eaten. The Cathars did not believe in the Holy Trinity.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

Bread and either cooked or raw vegetables, along with fruit? Nuts and legumes? Either plain water or juices?

This plus too much peanut butter, equals Great Lent.

But seriously, Americans have the distinct advantage of peanut butter, vegan substitutes like almond milk, soy patties, and shellfish.

Also, Orthodox monastics give up meat for life, and eat fish instead. They also fast on Monday in addition to Wednesday and Friday in honor of the Holy Bodiless Hosts, the nine orders of angels, as a reminder that they are struggling to live the Angelic Life.

vegetable, or margarine

We use vegatable oil, margarine, avocado oil instead.

fasting leaves the body weakened to some extent, and aside from the spiritual aspect, serves to “slow down” the body and make body and soul more suitable for prayer and contemplation. Is that right?

Yes. That is one aspect of fasting that most of us Orthodox are familiar with as well. Part of fasting is to take your focus off of the appetitive aspect of the soul for physical food and refocus that appetite for God. Fasting during these periods is supposed to be accompanied by increased prayer and almsgiving to help exercise the other aspects of the soul, the intelligent and incensive.

Fasting, almsgiving and prayer are not beneficial, according to St. Seraphim of Sarov unless we do it for Christ and realize that they are not good in and of themselves, but are indispensable means to acquiring the Holy Spirit, which is the goal of every Christian soul.

Here’s more on the aspects of the soul and their corresponding sinful weaknesses, from Evagrius Ponticus, an early dessert Father, if you would like to read more:

Evagrius Ponticus: “The Eight Evil Thoughts (Logísmoi)” | First Thoughts

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

Bread and either cooked or raw vegetables, along with fruit? Nuts and legumes? Either plain water or juices?

This plus too much peanut butter, equals Great Lent.

But seriously, Americans have the distinct advantage of peanut butter, vegan substitutes like almond milk, soy patties, and shellfish.

Also, Orthodox monastics give up meat for life, and eat fish instead. They also fast on Monday in addition to Wednesday and Friday in honor of the Holy Bodiless Hosts, the nine orders of angels, as a reminder that they are struggling to live the Angelic Life.

I wondered about the peanut butter. It does contain oil, at least just a bit.

Would Orthodoxy accept soy analogues and similar things (Morningstar Farms, Impossible Burger, Beyond Meat)? It certainly keeps the letter of the law, but I think you can say that it violates the spirit. This said, I do use them, as I have to have protein for medical reasons. A Beyond Burger on the grill is virtually impossible to distinguish from beef. Very tasty.

HomeschoolDad:

vegetable, or margarine

We use vegetable oil, margarine, avocado oil instead.

I wondered about that, but if this is the case, why not olive oil? It does come from a vegetable. Possibly too luxurious? (If so, the same reasoning could be used for high-quality meat analogues.)

HomeschoolDad:

fasting leaves the body weakened to some extent, and aside from the spiritual aspect, serves to “slow down” the body and make body and soul more suitable for prayer and contemplation. Is that right?

Yes. That is one aspect of fasting that most of us Orthodox are familiar with as well. Part of fasting is to take your focus off of the appetitive aspect of the soul for physical food and refocus that appetite for God. Fasting during these periods is supposed to be accompanied by increased prayer and almsgiving to help exercise the other aspects of the soul, the intelligent and incensive.

Fasting, almsgiving and prayer are not beneficial, according to St. Seraphim of Sarov unless we do it for Christ and realize that they are not good in and of themselves, but are indispensable means to acquiring the Holy Spirit, which is the goal of every Christian soul.

Actually, I find the “penance” to be more in the “aggravation factor” than anything else — “no, you cannot just eat whatever you want, it has to be certain types of food, and they’re harder to find, especially if you’re outside the home”. I ran into this situation just today.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

I wondered about the peanut butter. It does contain oil, at least just a bit.

Would Orthodoxy accept soy analogues and similar things (Morningstar Farms, Impossible Burger, Beyond Meat)? It certainly keeps the letter of the law, but I think you can say that it violates the spirit.

Yes. We have some who go very Pharisitcal in scrutinizing every little ingredient or pitting the spirit vs the letter, but most of us poor chaps just keep the fasts according to our strength, don’t scrutinize ingredients very harshly and try and focus on limiting portions and increasing prayer or devotion. Beyond Burgers and Impossible Whoppers are a lifesaver during grumpy fast days.

I know of one Orthodox Bishop who blessed his parishes to use Mayo because he said that he once toured a Mayonaise factory and the amount of egg used was so little as to be negligible.