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anhphan
Guest
Thank you. Wish you a merry christmas.
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anhphan
Guest
Thanks a lot!
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, if you look through history, you can see many examples of the Church baptizing pagan holidays and converting them to Christian feasts. Pagan celebrations were systematically replaced with memorials to saints. What became the Christmas season is also when the winter solstice was celebrated for millennia by indiginous peoples whose calendars were based upon solstices.
The Church also took over buildings this way, converting them for use of the Mass, or for monastic communities.
Christianity is based in the Jewish culture, into which it was born. We believe that the God of Abraham created everything, including the sun. He is the God of the Sun, Moon, stars and people.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
I agree it was celebrated at different times by early Christians but the pagan feast came after Christians began celebrating Christ’s birth on December 25th, see post #1 and #16.
Also, in the article by Andrew McGowan above, in post #7 it says that the idea of Christmas replacing a pagan festival didn’t really take hold until the 18th and 19th centuries, so could that have been a theory spread due to anti-Catholicism at that time.
Also, two saints quotes:
Saint Hippolytus of Rome, died 235AD:
“The first Advent of our Lord in the flesh occurred when He was born in Bethlehem on December 25th.”
and
Saint Theophilus, Bishop of Caesarea, died 181 AD,
“We ought to celebrate the birthday of Our Lord on what so ever day the 25th of December shall happen.”
God bless
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Brendan_64
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Yes, but the cult of Sol Invictus was established in AD 274 on 25th December, long after Christmas had already been celebrated by Christians on 25th December.
I think there is often an erroneous tendency to assume that because pagans celebrated on a particular date that this must automatically predate Christian feasts on the same date.
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Crocus
Guest
Not directed necessarily you, you’re just the last poster; was there even a December 25th before the Gregorian calendar of 1582?
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anhphan
Guest
Thank you guys a lot. Wish you guys a merry christmas
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Brendan_64
Guest
Yes. The Julian and Gregorian calendars are pretty much identical. Apparently the difference is down to year numbers divisible by 100 not counting as leap years in the Gregorian calendar, but those divisible by 400 are or something like that to correct a drift in time, or something like that, over the years. Apparently this makes the Gregorian calendar year on average 10.8 minutes shorter.
Julian calendar - Wikipedia
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Now I’m confused. God sending His Son into the world as a baby to save mankind had nothing to do with fictional Sun God Mira. So we would be having Christmas with or without fictional Sun God Mira.
We celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25, but really it does not matter if Jesus was born on Dec 25 or Dec. 24, Dec 26, Septermber 25 or whatever. What matters is that he was born and that’s why we celebrate, regardless of what day the Church chose for the party.
Easter is a movable feast, so the vast majority of the time it is not going to fall on the actual day Jesus rose from the dead. It doesn’t matter because the important thing is what we are celebrating, not whether, considering all the calendar changes and historical evidence etc, we get it on the exact right anniversary day of the event.
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BartholomewB
Guest
Yes, there have certainly been 31 days in December in every year since 46 BC, the “year zero” of Julius Caesar’s calendar reform. Before that, probably not. In the pre-Julian Roman calendar December may have had only 29 days, though I don’t think anyone knows in detail exactly how that calendar worked.
However, under Julius Caesar’s rules, the 25th day of December was not called “the twenty-fifth” but “the eighth day before the Kalends of January.” @Brendan_64’s post gives a link to Wikipedia where the reverse or countdown numbering system is explained.
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runningdude
Guest
There is a pagan holiday from some tradition on any day of the year. To choose a random date, had Jesus been born on July 16th, Christians would have been accused of usurping the pagan Egyptian birth of “Seth” (whoever “Seth” is).
If you browse the linked website above, almost any date could be a plausible target for Christianization. It is best to accept that December 25th was chosen based on various dates mentioned in the Gospels, and to also accept that some preexisting pagan customs were adopted for the Christian observance.
If you browse the linked website above, almost any date could be a plausible target for Christianization. It is best to accept that December 25th was chosen based on various dates mentioned in the Gospels, and to also accept that some preexisting pagan customs were adopted for the Christian observance.
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Dovekin
Guest
There has been a winter solstice for a long time, and most cultures have noticed it. Stonehenge and similar structures were constructed to align with the sun at equinoxes or solstices. These are the earliest calendars we have. The cult of Sol Invictus in Rome recognized this near universal celebration.
It is possible that early Christians recognized the yearly rebirth of the sun as a natural sign that expressed the reality they encountered in Christ., and so they chose Dec 25. It is even possible God chose the winter solstice as the moment when the Son of God would be born. (Some early thinking reasoned from redemption after the spring equinox to birth 9 months later at the winter solstice)
Christmas has an anti-Arian component to it, emphasizing the infant Jesus incarnating God as opposed to Arian ideas of a human person becoming like God. This fit well with the inversion of roles that characterized solstice festivals like Saturnalia. The dying of the light is reversed by the lengthening of the days. The birth of Christ as an infant was greeted as a redemption of all the world, bringing light to those in darkness.
po18guy
Well-known member
Maybe, just maybe, the real eternal God chose that day to shame those who worship false gods. Do not forget that Christianity is not a religion that is earth based and climbs to heaven. Quite the opposite: it exists in heaven and has condescended to earth. We do not construct the artifice of a divine nature with human hands - we partake of the Divine Nature as a grace from God in heaven.
Huge difference.
Huge difference.
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Gingersnaps4
Guest
That’s just what people who are hostile to Christianity like to say to try to diminish our Holy Day to try to hijack it and secularize it. It’s quite maddening because I don’t see any Jewish or Muslim holidays being hijacked and secularized. Yes there would still be Christmas, or the Christ-Mass. no matter what the date ended up being. Even if that had been the DATE of a pagan festival, that’s definitely not what it was once christians started celebrating The Mass of Christ or Christmas on that day. The Christmas tree as we know it started with St Boniface and the first Nativity scene originated with st Francis of Assisi. Some of the things that people say are pagan are outright falsehoods. I wish all these anti-Christian people that say Christmas is pagan would actually go celebrate the actual pagan holiday as it was, instead of with the trappings of Christmas.
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
"The Emperor Aurelian introduced the cult of the Sol Invictus or Unconquered Sun to Rome in A.D. 274. Aurelian found political traction with this cult, because his own name Aurelian derives from the Latin word aurora denoting “sunrise.” Coins reveal that Emperor Aurelian called himself the Pontifex Solis or Pontiff of the Sun . Thus, Aurelian simply accommodated a generic solar cult and identified his name with it at the end of the third century.
Most importantly, there is no historical record for a celebration Natalis Sol Invictus on December 25 prior to A.D. 354. Within an illuminated manuscript for the year A.D. 354, there is an entry for December 25 reading “N INVICTI CM XXX.” Here N means “nativity.” INVICTI means “of the Unconquered.” CM signifies “circenses missus” or “games ordered.” The Roman numeral XXX equals thirty. Thus, the inscription means that thirty games were order for the nativity of the Unconquered for December 25th. Note that the word “sun” is not present. Moreover, the very same codex also lists “natus Christus in Betleem Iudeae” for the day of December 25. The phrase is translated as “birth of Christ in Bethlehem of Judea
The date of December 25th only became the “Birthday of the Unconquered Sun” under the Emperor Julian the Apostate. Julian the Apostate had been a Christian but who had apostatized and returned to Roman paganism. History reveals that it was the hateful former Christian Emperor that erected a pagan holiday on December 25. Think about that for a moment. What was he trying to replace?
These historical facts reveal that the Unconquered Sun was not likely a popular deity in the Roman Empire. The Roman people did not need to be weaned off of a so-called ancient holiday. Moreover, the tradition of a December 25th celebration does not find a place on the Roman calendar until after the Christianization of Rome . The “Birthday of the Unconquered Sun” holiday was scarcely traditional and hardly popular. Saturnalia (mentioned above) was much more popular, traditional, and fun. It seems, rather, that Julian the Apostate had attempted to introduce a pagan holiday in order to replace the Christian one! "
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Gab123
Guest
Understand that the Church does not celebrate a date but rather the great event of the light of Christ coming into the world, tha is, the birth of Jesus Christ—the incarnation of God becoming man and entering human history. The New Testament describes Jesus as the rising sun:
Because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven to shine on those living in darkness”-Luke 1:78-79
Thus when the early Christians spread the gospel they encountered the pagan world whose greatest pagan celebration was that of the sun god on December 25. The early Christians converted the pagans, preaching that God Himself came into the world thus replacing their pagan celebration with the birth of Christ, the light of the world.As Jesus testified:
“I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” -John 8:12
Because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven to shine on those living in darkness”-Luke 1:78-79
Thus when the early Christians spread the gospel they encountered the pagan world whose greatest pagan celebration was that of the sun god on December 25. The early Christians converted the pagans, preaching that God Himself came into the world thus replacing their pagan celebration with the birth of Christ, the light of the world.As Jesus testified:
“I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” -John 8:12
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MagdalenaRita
Guest
There are a few different links and articles in the posts above that show that the celebration of the sun god came after (354AD) Christians began celebrating Christs birth on Dec. 25th.
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Gab123
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Pagan worship predated the gospel.
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otjm
Guest
According to Luke, shepherds were in the field keeping night watch.
Why night watch? because when sheep are giving birth, they may need assistance, and the sheep give birth when they are ready - which can occur anywhere within the 24 hour period.
And when do sheep give birth? It begins in March. as to all the machinations to set Christ’s birth on December 25th, unless archaeologists come up with the decree of Caesar Augustus requiring the enrollment of all, which would possibly narrow the time down a bit, the Bible appears to indicate that the birth occurred in about March. When the early Church celebrated the birth of Christ, the date varied until it was settled upon December 25th, and unless someone finds ancient writings as to why that date was chosen, the bottom line is we don’t know.
Why night watch? because when sheep are giving birth, they may need assistance, and the sheep give birth when they are ready - which can occur anywhere within the 24 hour period.
And when do sheep give birth? It begins in March. as to all the machinations to set Christ’s birth on December 25th, unless archaeologists come up with the decree of Caesar Augustus requiring the enrollment of all, which would possibly narrow the time down a bit, the Bible appears to indicate that the birth occurred in about March. When the early Church celebrated the birth of Christ, the date varied until it was settled upon December 25th, and unless someone finds ancient writings as to why that date was chosen, the bottom line is we don’t know.
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MagdalenaRita
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So from the same link as in my last post,
“Palestine is not England, Russia, or Alaska. Bethlehem is situated at the latitude of 31.7. My city of Dallas, Texas has the latitude of 32.8, and it’s still rather comfortable outside in December. As the great Cornelius a Lapide remarks during his lifetime, one could still see shepherds and sheep in the fields of Italy during late December, and Italy is at higher latitude than Bethlehem.”
As far as Scripture, I’m using the same link:
"Now we move on to establishing the birthday of Christ from Sacred Scripture in two steps. The first step is to use Scripture to determine the birthday of Saint John the Baptist. The next step is using Saint John the Baptist’s birthday as the key for finding Christ’s birthday. We can discover that Christ was born in late December by observing first the time of year in which Saint Luke describes Saint Zacharias in the temple. This provides us with the approximate conception date of Saint John the Baptist. From there we can follow the chronology that Saint Luke gives, and that lands us at the end of December. (cont)
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