Why was "modesty" never part of my Catholic vocabulary?

[Anicette]

I would add that modesty, wearing only long skirts, and even to cover the head is no longer unseen in my area. Many women do that, because they are Muslins and the Muslin population rate is very high.

I can see high schoolers girls that repeats their gymnastics exercises for the baccalaureate in a public place, wearing long skirts and a veil. I see underage interns in the shops I go that are veiled.

The only difference is that it only concerned Muslins.

I only wear long dress and skirts (ankle lenght) but colored one. My daughter too, with shorter lenght skirts. Of course I am an exception, but it is not so much counter cultural, as It can clothes that can be “fashionable”.

It is a personal choice for cultural reasons and matter of preference. It started at first when I attended a traditional parish, by chances. Of course skirts where not a mandate, and nobody said me something but if someone want to integrated better, it was the way. Ankle-lenght was the only choice that was acceptable for me because I didn’t want to exposed my legs, but the majority of women wore shorter skirts. Very few women wore head covering for mass.
Then I had to left my skirts for professional reasons, to now go to skirts only after a lot of discussion with someone here…

It is not a dogma. It may change in the future if my circunstances changed or if I think I have no longer something to proove to someone else.
What are my criterias is not to let my legs naked, and wear tee shirts with at least short sleeves. I can be more relaxed during summer holidays with tops that are not seen as modest.
For practical reasons, I am often very discovered with large neckines, or tops largely opened because of breastfeeding. It is temporary, and I think in a short time I will no longer expose my breasts.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I was never aware of a great emphasis on modesty growing up. The age where fashion would have been an issue for me would have been through the 70’s but I never felt an urge to push boundaries. I think I’ve always just naturally preferred covering up.

Talking about the influence of Protestantism on the subject, like most countries I think, Australia has some ‘bible belt’ areas that see a strong emphasis on modesty and other such values. They are a mix of Protestant and Catholic but are more locally united by a brand of political and ideological conservatism than Christianity per se.

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

I have to admit I am pretty ignorant about Australia. I’m kind of put off visiting because you have those huge spiders! There are probably some pretty huge ones in the United States, but not in the parts I tend to be in. Seriously, though, I think my overall impression of Australia is that it’s somewhat similar to Britain (constitutionally, for example), although more conservative and with more support for right-wing populism (e.g. on climate change), and that it’s considerably more conservative than Canada and New Zealand, which tend to come across as very liberal/progressive. I know some Australians who post a lot on social media about injustices toward Aborigines, and they are big fans of Jacinda Ardern. I guess they must be in the minority, otherwise Australia would have a prime minister more like her. Sorry, I know that’s not very sophisticated or knowledgeable. As for the Christian aspect, I know almost nothing.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

prohibition of women wearing pants (trousers).

IIRC, in Exodus there’s a prohibition of men and women wearing each other’s clothes. (I forget the exact verse but it’s in there.)

I grew up wearing skirts & dresses but in my teens switched to wearing pants/slacks. Dresses were for church and even then only on holy days like Pascha.

When I went on pilgrimage in 2004, the priest who heard my confession took one look at me (I had a T-shirt & skirt on) and gave me as a penance: “Get rid of all your immodest clothing.” That was the toughest penance I ever had.

Shortly after I came back from retreat, someone said they’d give me $ 20.00 if I wore a pair of slacks. (Don’t laugh; this really happened.) I replied: “Is your soul worth that much?” I should have replied: “Is that the equivalent of thirty pieces of silver?”

I gave up pants, slacks etc in 2004 and have not regretted it. Even during summer when it’s the hottest I still try to dress modestly. People look at me and say: “Aren’t you hot?” and I reply: “No, are you cold?”

Or as one of the priests told us during retreat: “If you think it’s too hot, think how much hotter it will be in hell.” POWERFUL. Right between the eyes.

 

[catholic03]

Or as one of the priests told us during retreat: “If you think it’s too hot, think how much hotter it will be in hell.” POWERFUL. Right between the eyes.

It certainly is powerful. I see so many young women dressed very immodestly. Women and men need to look out for each other’s Eternal Lives. I, as a young man, ensure that I dress modestly - I wish that more young women would do so.

God bless you and other holy women who are modest as Our Lord intends.

 

[27lw]

Secondly, I am puzzled by the culture of modesty. It seems like for some Catholics it’s a touchstone, a shibboleth, a way of identifying whether somebody belongs to the tribe. Their approach to modesty isn’t within the continuum of the culture in which they live, it is consciously countercultural.

It is countercultural by definition to try to live as a committed Christian, in our society. Does our society honor Christian values? Didn’t St. Pope John Paul call our culture “the culture of death”? If you’re living your life more in line with Christianity then yes, you’re probably out of step with the world.

 

[Anicette]

Or as one of the priests told us during retreat: “If you think it’s too hot, think how much hotter it will be in hell.”

Without making people fear of hell, on the practical side, when it is hot, a long skirt can be less hot than a tight trouser. The skirt does not tight the tight and air can circulate.
It is even what a religious priest in habit said us to justify that he don’t have too hot in heavy summer in a hot country.
And I also known a priest who choose to wear cassock versus back trouser when it is very hot for the same reason.

So a woman is a long skirt when it is very hot may not be as silly as some may think. And too add to wear a loose top with sleeves and cover ours legs is a good idea to protect ourselves from burning contrary to a mini short and bare shoulders. That’s what I had done in Spain without suffer from the summer.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Now that I think of it, I am cooler in a long skirt.

 

[Anicette]

I have to admit I am pretty ignorant about Australia.

edit to not been misunderstood:
I am very ignorant too, except Autralia is a very hot country and people are concentrated on the littoral.
Beach + hot+ western country= people in swimsuits and who are wearing very short clothes.

That’s only my experience, but in Northern France people wear longer clothes than in the South in summer. And I had a big cultural/modest shock when I was in Spain to see what people wore. I couldn’t be confortable. And I know I am not alone.

 

[Minks]

Having grown up on a farm, I began helping to bale hay in my 13th summer. My pappaw always said to dry thoroughly after a bath and use talcum powder, then dress fully in cotton, with a close-fitting neck and close-to-the-skin cuffed sleeves. Naturally, our field ensemble included socks and long pants.

We don’t often see grasshoppers, now, but the fields used to be rife with grasshoppers and a couple of other hopping insects that could get up your pants leg and all the way to your knee in one stinking hop! No fair, so we sometimes tucked our pants legs inside our socks. We all wore men’s buttoned down, long sleeved shirts. Since perspiration about the face and neck were uncomfortable, we wore cotton bandanas around our necks. We could lower our faces into a raised bandana triangle for a bit of relief from drippy sweat.

Our clothes would become soppy with sweat, but they didn’t stick to us, and air-dried fairly well. Most importantly, we didn’t get the dreaded chaff and dust down our necks, and up our sleeves, itching like mad. I tried working in the hot sun both ways, covered as much as possible and just wearing a short-sleeved tee shirt. Without question, a cotton coverup from top to toe was cooler and more comfortable than an itchy coating of sweat laced with dust, chaff, and smashed insects.

 

[graciew]

and smashed insects.

LOL
I loved your post, Minks. So descriptive…
Unbearable gnats and horseflies … how can they find the square millimeter left uncovered?

 

[Lost_sheep2]

Ah, you shouldn’t have problems with spiders unless you’re camping out in the bush or something haha. Obviously there are some spiders everywhere but it’s not as bad as some Americans think. Snakes in some places would be a bigger issue. When I was a kid (living in a semi rural area) it wasn’t a shock to find a snake in the garden, and we used to have a carpet python living in our roof.

We probably are more conservative than New Zealand or Canada, but outside of more traditional/conservative rural areas it’s still fairly progressive (at least in my opinion). Climate issues are probably the only thing I can think of where we are much more right wing. Certainly speaking my mind on issues like gay ‘marriage’ and abortion would get me in trouble with school/work. And pretty much any time our PM says anything that doesn’t cater to left wing progressivism there’s an uproar about it. He doesn’t seem to be very popular and I would guess a lot of Aussies would prefer someone like Jacinda Ardern. Personally I don’t care for politics and don’t pay attention to it unless I have to.

Australia’s not too bad though, it must be alright considering the number of people who immigrate here As long as you don’t mind hot weather and the wildlife that is xD

 

[Minks]

Minks:

and smashed insects.

LOL
I loved your post, Minks. So descriptive…
Unbearable gnats and horseflies … how can they find the square millimeter left uncovered?

I don’t know, but they’re magicians! Thank you for the compliment.

Those were summers in the 50s and a prevalent insect was a tiny straight line, at first glance, looking much like the single little bits of a one-day beard when the sink has not been rinsed well after a guy has shaved in a hurry. Called “Oats Bugs,” I’ve not seen them in decades, probably thanks to Monsanto and their ilk. They didn’t bite, but they went after light colors, and especially loved a white shirt. You’d look down and your bare arms, or a white tee shirt, would be covered with them, and being such fragile little guys, when you tried to brush them off, you’d just smash them and would have dark gray streaks of decimated oats bugs on your arms . . . or face.

They sailed right through window screens, so we weren’t “home free,” even when we were at home! Dressing as Pappaw recommended, though, in cool cotton, removed that ick factor. Not that cotton made you feel cool, but it wasn’t as hot as clothing made of other fibers.

 

[Newhills]

My question, therefore, is this: why was “modesty” never part of my Catholic vocabulary?

Targeted & slow degradation of society & values maybe

 

[Minks]

@do_justly_love_mercy

Certain words, buzzwords, or catch-phrases are often more in vogue in one era than in another, and more so in some localities than in another. In the wake of Vatican II, Church representatives who were placed within individual parishes by bishops as “Directors” had precious little to say about basic concepts of the Church, so I doubt that modesty was in their radar. It was the “whatever you can get by with” era in terms of speech, clothing, audacity, and behavior. Societies don’t often backtrack to previous standards, although the pendulum does swing, as we’re seeing to some small extent within our Church today.

As pointed out in previous posts, there were surely other everyday words and phrases that you heard frequently, that had to do with developing your standards for speech, dress and behavior, so you didn’t place special emphasis on them in relation to what you now know has to do with modesty.

Whereas some students, especially rebellious ones, must be frequently admonished, others only need suggestions. From what you say about your teen years, you were fairly malleable, so your mother’s saying, “Why don’t you try that pastel blue top and those cute slacks we bought at Macy’s?” may have been sufficient to steer you into the eventual proper, but upwardly mobile, young woman that your parents hoped for (assuming that they did ).

It dosn’t sound as though you were constantly pushing the envelope with outrageous or vulgar speech or audacious behavior, either, so you didn’t force the adults in your life to hammer their ideas into your thinking.

 

[pulchraesamicamea]

I am a millennial person in my 20s and I’ve been Catholic since 2015.

To be honest, I grew up in the Protestant Christian tradition. However, I was always told to dress respectfully when I’m at church. I always wanted to be modest and loved old-fashioned clothing. I never wanted to show my shoulders. And after I became Catholic, modesty just became an everyday part of my life.

I think it’s just how I was raised. My parents always told me that it’s good to be modest.

 

[graciew]

Never seen anything like that bug that I can remember…but then as you say, it might have disappeared completely.
Thanks so much for sharing. Very enjoyable posts.Childhood memories…

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

I have to admit, my impressions of Australia are inevitably skewed by the fact that the only Australians I meet are the ones who choose to live in the US or Europe, which are usually liberal left-leaning types, often from Melbourne. It’s the same as Americans in Europe. One of my British friends was talking about his impression of the typical American, and it turns out that the average American is Niles Crane.

To give you an idea about the sort of Australians I know, Rolf Harris came up in conversation. An Australian girl said that she didn’t have to wait for Harris to be a convicted pedophile to realize what an awful person he was. She had known what an awful person he was when he played a didgeridoo. I was confused. Apparently it’s “problematic” for a white person to play a didgeridoo. She no longer celebrates Australia Day, as it’s also “problematic”.

If I could avoid the hottest of the weather and also the spiders, I’d probably like Australia. A lot of the wildlife is really cute, e.g. wombats, echidnas, platypuses, kangaroos, koalas. But I was told that pretty much every Australian home has a huntsman spider somewhere, and that idea really freaks me out!

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

Certain words, buzzwords, or catch-phrases are often more in vogue in one era than in another, and more so in some localities than in another.

Yes, the buzzwords or catchphrases that I see a lot on this forum are “the Marylike standards of modesty”, the decree of Pope Pius XI, and the clarification by the Vicar General of Rome, Cardinal Pompili, which dates back over 90 years now. Growing up, I always tended toward pretty modest fashions anyway, partly because I already seemed to attract more attention than I was comfortable with. But certainly neither my parents nor anyone in my parish ever used the term “Marylike” or cited Pius XI or Cardinal Pompili. Perhaps this is something I would have heard about if I’d gone to Catholic school.

 

[OddBird]

But I was told that pretty much every Australian home has a huntsman spider somewhere, and that idea really freaks me out!

< freaking-out mode>

That reminds me of the day I was innocently scrolling through pictures of finished projects on a knitting forum, and someone had posted a pic of a huntsman spider inspecting their newly finished tea cozy on the coffee table.

</ freaking-out mode>

Ahem, carry on.