Why was "modesty" never part of my Catholic vocabulary?

[Lost_sheep2]

Yeah, that’s pretty typical of liberal Aussies from Melbourne. The whole ‘Australia Day is racist’ stuff is pushed pretty strongly in schools here but the majority of people outside of big cities seem to be more moderate. They’re not the types you’re likely to come into contact with if you live in Europe or the US though.

We do have a lot of huntsman spiders- I think they’re pretty cute xD they don’t really harm anyone. If you’re scared of spiders though I can see why they’d be scary. But don’t be fooled by our wildlife looking cute haha, they certainly are, but most of them can kill you. I certainly wouldn’t want to end up face to face with an angry kangaroo.

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

Yes, I saw photos of somebody who was attacked by a wombat. It seems that those cuddly balls of fur can inflict some damage if you get on the wrong side of them.

 

[Anicette]

I would have confess that modesty was not part of my vocabulary before coming here.

I don’t know how to traduce appropriately this word in french!
The Catechism of the Catholic Church use the word “pudeur” to traduce “modesty”.

Yet, If I look online the two definition does not seems to be equal.
In french we used this word to decribe an attitude of being afraid to reveal our bodies or before sexual realities. It is not something that is always seen as positive by the general opinion.

Only wikipedia English for “Modesty” entry explain it as a “mode of dress is a mode of dress and deportment which intends to avoid the encouraging of sexual attraction in others”.
We don’t have something similar in Wikipedia french for “pudeur”, and “modestie” has another sense, a more moral one.

I don’t think that Frenchs are immodests people and that french Catholics are raised as immodests, but may the modesty as a movement that wanted to be codified with more or less success, an Anglo Saxon exception?

What do you think?

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

That’s interesting. The word pudeur, as you say, is originally about feeling shame. Indeed, in English, people occasionally still use the Latin word pudenda to refer to the sexual organs. The literal translation of the gerundive in English is something like, “things of which to feel ashamed”. Modestie, on the other hand, is more like the English word “humility”.

In English, the word “modesty” confusingly has several quite different meanings. You can say, “Modesty did not allow him to boast of his achievements”, meaning that somebody was very humble, but you can also say, “She had only a towel to protect her modesty”, which is to do with shame and its avoidance.

 

[OddBird]

I don’t know how to traduce appropriately this word in french!

Yes, me neither ! “Modestie” doesn’t have the same meaning, “pudeur” isn’t quite it either. Maybe “décence” (since law texts use “tenue indécente”) ?

As a fellow Frenchwoman, I see it as something influenced by Puritanism, which isn’t a French phenomenon.

 

[englands123]

Personally I do not believe any person can be taught how to be Modest. Perhaps a young child can , I dunno.

It’s either in your heart or it isn’t.

You generally find modesty in folk from poor backgrounds , who grew up with very little or nothing.

Cambridge dictionary: modesty noun (QUIET SUCCESS)

The Church shouldn’t have to explain Modesty either.

 

[englands123]

I mean look at that lottery for example … How many on this site play it ?

Ask yourself why ?

Almost every modest person I know rejects the lottery for simple reasons.

 

[Anicette]

The Church shouldn’t have to explain Modesty either.

Maybe not in the practical details, because everyone has is own definition. We don’t want to show or hide the same parts of the body, in a similar manner and we all have differents reasons for it.

But I disagree that the Church has nothing to say in the topic. She recognizes that modesty is something that protects the virtue of chastity, She is in her role in promoting it, for individuals and for the whole society.

Almost every modest person I know rejects the lottery for simple reasons.

Could you be more explicit, please?

 

[Anicette]

Yes, me neither ! “Modestie” doesn’t have the same meaning, “pudeur” isn’t quite it either. Maybe “décence” (since law texts use “tenue indécente”) ?

A good idea!

Yet it seems to me that modesty, when it is embraced really at heart by someone goes more far that simply being “décent”. It may be a way to cover the shame she feels over her body in the presence of others and to protect the divine mystery of her person.

I thought of “sobriété” when we speak of clothes- “vêtements sobres”. But It doesn’t traduce all the others aspects of the word.

That’s strange because I speak here with people a lot about something that’s I don’t understand completely! Yet I see the ramifications It had in my daily life… Crazy!

As a fellow Frenchwoman, I see it as something influenced by Puritanism, which isn’t a French phenomenon.

I agree. It is something more Protestant than Catholic. That’s why we have a focus on clothes among some conversatives evangelicals movements and even a dress code that may be very different (almost excentric) than the average fashion among small groups of them. Two exemple, the skirts only women, and the bathing costumes that is a compromise between muslin costumes and current traditional western standards. I don’t say that I find that wrong.

My hypothesis. Catholic theology and ecclesiology over marriage, celibacy sexuality and procreation is very rich, coherent, immuable, yet deepen over the centuries. Protestants don’t have that. They can be very liberal or more conservative over theses topics. The conservatives would choose to focus their sex obsession and their inner (and right) feeling that people need restrictions over topics such as modesty, purity…

And as Catholics live next to Protestants in Anglo-saxon areas, they are more aware of the modesty topic that Catholics from others cultural areas. And the result is endless debate threats on CAF…

 

[Anicette]

What a surprise, @do_justly_love_mercy you taught me the" pudenda" word, and I just learnt that we can use “pudenda” too in French to design the external genital organs! Yet, very old word!

“Modestie” in French is to be humble. It seems that English use the french word with the same definition.

Thanks you for giving the definition of modesty.

 

[OddBird]

to protect the divine mystery of her person.

You’re right, “décence” doesn’t translate this.

Do you remember when, some two or three years ago, young designers proposing “mode pudique” (which I guess was how “modest fashion” was translated) made the headlines in French media ? There was a distinct overtone of “we’re being taken over by the Islamists/American evangelicals”. I looked some of them up, as I really liked what they did, but they’re way too expensive for me - and I’m not sure such expensive clothes are “modest” either, at least in the Christian sense.

My hypothesis. Catholic theology and ecclesiology over marriage, celibacy sexuality and procreation is very rich, coherent, immuable, yet deepen over the centuries. Protestants don’t have that. They can be very liberal or more conservative over theses topics. The conservatives would choose to focus their sex obsession and their inner (and right) feeling that people need restrictions over topics such as modesty, purity…

I agree. I can testify that it’s something about which Protestants groups in France are either very aware (to the point of being a bit obsessive) or completely clueless.

I don’t say that I find that wrong.

Me neither. My own swimwear looks a bit like a tenniswoman’s minidress

 

[englands123]

How many people buy lottery tickets for fun reasons or out of good will.

The point I’m making , yes gambling is not good. But for most gamblers it’s a addiction .

Winning millions is not out of addiction ? It’s out of greed or wanting more than you have already been given.

 

[Anicette]

So not being modest if because of disfunction that is out of will, such as gambling?

 

[Anicette]

Sorry for being late!

Do you remember when, some two or three years ago, young designers proposing “mode pudique” (which I guess was how “modest fashion” was translated) made the headlines in French media ? There was a distinct overtone of “we’re being taken over by the Islamists/American evangelicals”. I looked some of them up, as I really liked what they did, but they’re way too expensive for me - and I’m not sure such expensive clothes are “modest” either, at least in the Christian sense.

Well, a little, i remember of heavy protestations on the radio about islamic mode that are promoted, but I don’t remember exactly all. I was very deeply absorb by my babay at that time.

What was about? Was it about some advertising on the media by some (muslin) compagnies?

Have you got the name or the internet website links of these designers/compagnies, please?

I also remember what mess it was when some mayors forbid their beaches to women who wear a “burkini”!
Whoo! So the swimsuit is now a mandate??

Not to mentionned the woman with a veil on the beach that had been verbalized!
(I was used to wear without complex a scarf on my head if it is too funny… ha!)
Thanksfully the constitutional court had overturned theses municipals stops!

Me neither. My own swimwear looks a bit like a tenniswoman’s minidress

Good for you!

I wish my siwmsuit to be more covering! makes me wants to see what some modest (christian) compagnies sell on the other side of the Atlantic.But it is very expensive and we can’t try!

and I’m not sure such expensive clothes are “modest” either, at least in the Christian sense.

What sort of clothes? What do you mean and what is your opinion?

well, I think veil is superfluous and not traditional in modern post-christian societies.
Anything that catches the eyes such as false jewelry may not be modest.