Why Was Pope John Paul II So Great?

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tafan2 said:
a semi-totalitarian government
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How is it “semi-totalitarian”? I know there are issues with the press and with free elections, but it is much, much freer than it was under the USSR. The right to bear arms, while not absolute (it is not “absolute” anywhere in the world aside from the USA), is fairly liberal by world standards.
 
The Russian government poisons dissents who are fled to England - that counts for semi-totalitarisn in my book, YMMV.
 
@Adamek , I have, one of my very best friends grew up in China during the Cultural Revolution. I have also studied communism extensively, all of its evil and horror.
My only point is that the Soviet Union under a communist party and Eastern Europe were not destined to fall, without the assistance of outside force, particularly St John Paul II, the Great.
 
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tafan2 said:
The Russian government poisons dissents who are fled to England - that counts for semi-totalitarisn in my book, YMMV.
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It’s not my goal to be an apologist for the Russian government, but our hands aren’t entirely clean either. The Tuskegee Experiment, Leonard Peltier, certain assassinations and “suicides” that just don’t sound quite right, the list goes on.
 
I was 17 when JPII was elected Pope and I was instantly ‘in love’. It was something about him that made you 100% sure of Christ and the Catholic Church. When he came to Australia in 1985? I think it was, I was 23 and volunteered as an usher at the Papal Mass. My role was to stand towards the back of one section of the stadium and guide people to their seats. I was really disappointed to have been so far back from the Mass. At the end of Mass, all the ushers were called down to the front and Pope JPII came slowly around in the pope mobile touching our hands and greeting us. It was the best moment of my life.

Many years later when my life was touched by deep tragedy and I was questioning whether God was even there, my faith was completely carried by the thought “if Pope JP believes, then I believe too”. That gift has stayed with me and I hope and pray that in some way my children who didn’t know Pope John Paul II can have some of that assurance through my faith and my love of him.

A funny thing is that often I will reference Pope JP using a capital H for him. I’ve often found myself going back to correct it, but he just brings Jesus so close to me it’s as if He was really there in the Pope.
 
For me, when he came to Los Angeles in 1987. I wanted to go so badly to see him, but it wasn;t meant to be. However, seeing how he made every young person in that room feel important and as though THEY were members of the church and not the future, but the NOW. He made you feel as though you were the most important person in the room of thousands. Even watching the video of that visit now, I still get teary. When he kissed Tony Melendez…whoa. That was HUGE back then.

My boss and I see so much of JP2 in Pope Francis and we LOVE him. (You should all hear my boss “POPEEEEYYYYYYY” It;s so cute. )
 
I certainly don’t claim our hands are clean. I am just pointing out that the common narrative that Communist Party rule in Russia would have collapsed regardless is not necessarily true. So I gave a scenario of why that may have been the case, part of that was an off-hand remark about the state of Russia today, nothing more.

I will add, another poster has pointed out that it I was just engaging in speculative alternative history (my wording, not his) and anything could have happened. That is exactly my point. The idea that it would have collapsed without JP II is just speculative alternative history. What we know is this: it did collapse in Russia and Eastern Europe, and the person who was most responsible for that collapse was St John Paul II the Great.
 
tafan2 said:
I certainly don’t claim our hands are clean. I am just pointing out that the common narrative that Communist Party rule in Russia would have collapsed regardless is not necessarily true. So I gave a scenario of why that may have been the case, part of that was an off-hand remark about the state of Russia today, nothing more.

I will add, another poster has pointed out that it I was just engaging in speculative alternative history (my wording, not his) and anything could have happened. That is exactly my point. The idea that it would have collapsed without JP II is just speculative alternative history. What we know is this: it did collapse in Russia and Eastern Europe, and the person who was most responsible for that collapse was St John Paul II the Great.
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I can’t really say I disagree with this. Would Soviet communism have collapsed without JPII? If another run-of-the-mill Italian cardinal had been elected? Who can say? The fact is that it did, and his being the Pope had a lot to do with it. Communism never did really “work” in Poland, and my “ex-” wife can attest to this. She told me that it is as though you picked the most incompetent, politically connected people to run industry, the economy, and the government. Party loyalty was the coin of the realm, not ability. Doubtless there were competent people here and there, but competence wasn’t required. Consumer goods were not produced to meet demand, but according to quotas. Many were of poor quality. Supplies of food could be cut off on a whim. Martial law actually eased living conditions, as the regime wanted their people to be relatively contented and not cause problems. You could not attend Mass and be a party member, indeed, police officers were not allowed to go to Mass. People basically had to choose whether to prosper in society, or to practice their Catholic faith. We watched all 14 hours of the miniseries Amerika (ABC, 1988, televised once and never shown again) and she said it was actually pretty accurate. So I probably know a fair amount about communist society. I have been to Poland nine times (1990 through 2005).

The banner reads “the government takes care of the people”:

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twf said:
This has been beaten to death… but St JPII was simply respecting the middle eastern custom of kissing a gift. He wasn’t revering the Quran as we would venerate the Gospel Book. He was showing respect for a gift.
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So, the Holy Saints and Martyrs of the early Church weren’t as reverential to their separated Roman brethren and separated Roman Gods. Alas, the gesture of goodwill, respect of gifts and peacemaking with the Romans was lost on them. Quite the fundamentalists we have in the early Church, isn’t it?
 
The Quran is a book. Its not comparable. Your post comes off as very disrespectful towards the late Holy Father.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
I have to think that 100-150 years should pass before the Church canonizes a saint.
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With then invention of telephones, automobiles, airplanes, computers, the internet and instant communication, the Church no longer has to rely on horses. After all, you can watch the Holy Father give a homily live in the Internet. Most Catholics over the past 2000 years never saw or heard a pope speak.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I think the thing he did that made the biggest impression on me was forgiving his assassin in the prison. I remember that famous photo of him meeting with the assassin was even in a Patti Smith video for “People Have the Power”. It was a very powerful image and I remember thinking it showed how holy the Pope was, that he would go meet with and forgive someone who almost killed him.
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This is it. Fr. James Martin shared it on his Facebook page yesterday. Very moving photo.

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The greatness of every saint comes in the way in which they lived the will of God in their lives.
 
I would add that communism in Poland resulted from occupation by an outside force. Had it been a result of Poles it might have been harder to resist.
 
twf said:
The Quran is a book. Its not comparable. Your post comes off as very disrespectful towards the late Holy Father.
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Disrespectful? Ask yourself if any of the Saints or the Popes (e.g. St. Peter) in bygone days would have kissed a book like the Quran? If you still find the comment disrespectful, would you likewise kiss the Quran and suggest others to follow suit, following in the footsteps of the late Holy Father Pope John Paul II?
 
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