Why was the Devil allowed to lie to Eve?

[fisherman_carl]

I think I heard somewhere that Adam and Eve were created perfect in the sense that they were created good to the degree in how they were intended to be. However, they were not created perfect in the sense of God’s infinite perfection. So in other words they had room to grow and be perfected. And doesn’t the catechism state that God chose to create the world in a state of journeying to perfection rather than already perfect? Since we are not like God in the sense we are not all knowing, even our own knowledge is in a state of journeying to perfection. Even the devil is not all knowing and is capable of error. Since your conclusions are only as good as your assumptions. And if you are not all knowing then you have to make assumptions

 

[oneofmany]

More important question. Why was the devil here in the first place? Why did God have him thrown down to earth and not somewhere else?

 

[fisherman_carl]

In the garden Adam and Eve were created good and had not yet eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They were not predisposed to break the law until the great deception. It was at this point they viewed the fruit as desirable. You mention culpability, but I think most jury’s would see this as textbook entrapment.

You also mention that God had a plan that allowed for the possibility of us falling. But I don’t think there was a possibility of us not falling since the fall is what paves the way for Jesus and the glory of his resurrection.

There was certainly a trap involved, but the story has the devil as the one who is behind it. My point was that having an intellect and will means that by necessity of our nature that at some point we would have to choose to follow God or not. The clash between good and evil, darkness and light would have to be a battle we would have to fight whether the devil was there in the garden or not. But, what the devil does provide for us is the example of pure darkness. And from that we recognize even more completely the value of pure light. Those who complain about the darkness, the suffering, the evil in this life prove this point. They recognize all the more what is evil and what is good. But isn’t that the point of the story? The fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

And really who is the devil, who is the evil one? Are we not the devil, the evil one, becoming just like him if we ultimately choose to reject God? Looking at the devil is then looking in the mirror of how we would be ultimately if we choose his path. Conversely to choose the path of Christ is to become like him.

 

[Della]

I think I heard somewhere that Adam and Eve were created perfect in the sense that they were created good to the degree in how they were intended to be. However, they were not created perfect in the sense of God’s infinite perfection. So in other words they had room to grow and be perfected. And doesn’t the catechism state that God chose to create the world in a state of journeying to perfection rather than already perfect? Since we are not like God in the sense we are not all knowing, even our own knowledge is in a state of journeying to perfection. Even the devil is not all knowing and is capable of error. Since your conclusions are only as good as your assumptions. And if you are not all knowing then you have to make assumptions

Yes. Even Jesus “grew in wisdom” since he started out as a child. Adam and Eve were like children in that they’d not experienced temptation or been exposed to a scenario in which they had to choose between obeying God and not doing so. In order to help them grow in wisdom and experience, they needed to be tested. They failed their test, and we failed with them in the sense that we couldn’t inherit what they no longer had–sanctifying grace. They’re love for God was imperfect and that fault lies completely on them since God had provided for all their wants and needs and yet they disobeyed him when push came to shove. Love isn’t love if it does not love when challenged. Virtues need exercising in order to be perfected. They’re not automatically given to us–we need to gain them through practicing them–through relying on the grace of God to aid us.

 

[o_mlly]

Yes, God is perfect.

Adam and Eve were not.

Tell me, why on earth would they sin like that?

Did they say “I don’t want to listen to God, I’m going to do what I want to do” - they had the imperfection of pride.

Did they just accept anything the snake told them without thinking? - then they had the imperfection of naivete.

Did they just fall for the lie that the snake told them? Then they had the imperfection of stupidity.

Either which way, they were created imperfect.

They had buggy code. No wonder they crashed!

If the software crashes, are you saying there were no bugs in the software?

Buggy code = software crashes.

Adam & Eve = created imperfect = GIGO. No wonder they fell!

Adam and Eve had infused knowledge but not perfect knowledge. The knowledge they possessed was sufficient to the their needs to live and defend the garden and to obey God. God also gave them free will.

Perhaps a better analogy than software code errors to explain Adam’s failure is the analogy of the perfect plan poorly executed.

 

[BobCatholic]

No, and again no, no, no. Adam and Eve were not created “imperfect” but rather they believed a lie,

And why did they believe a lie? Were they stupid? Naive? Brainwashed (so they had the ability to be brainwashed)? Those are imperfections.

and decided they knew better than God.

Pride. That’s an imperfection.

Even a perfect being can come to a wrong conclusion if he relies on his own wisdom rather than divine wisdom–as you have done.

No. A perfect being cannot come to a wrong conclusion unless an imperfection is present.

A perfect being realizes everything they have is from God. They realize their goodness comes from God. Not from themselves. A perfect being comes to a perfect conclusion because their thinking and reasoning is perfect.

And I willingly admit I am imperfect. That’s why I can’t understand why punishing someone that was created imperfect is a good thing. I don’t understand why we are being temporally held responsible for the sins of our ancestors.

Divine wisdom had made only one law–an easy one to keep, but they didn’t love God enough to trust him–again, that says nothing about their perfection or lack of it, it only tells us they relied on themselves instead of on God.

Right, and people wanting to rely on themselves is an imperfection, and imperfect desire.

Perfect people do not have imperfect desires, nor do they yield to imperfect desires unless there is an imperfection present.

Adam and Eve should have gone to God (who walked with them in the Garden–so he was always available to them) for better understanding. Instead, they believed they could “have their cake and eat it too” as the expression goes. Well, they found out otherwise.

Yup. The self is evil, only God is good. (interpret that as hyperbole)

 

[Giovonni]

There was certainly a trap involved, but the story has the devil as the one who is behind it. My point was that having an intellect and will means that by necessity of our nature that at some point we would have to choose to follow God or not. The clash between good and evil, darkness and light would have to be a battle we would have to fight whether the devil was there in the garden or not. But, what the devil does provide for us is the example of pure darkness. And from that we recognize even more completely the value of pure light.

Had the devil not been in the garden, I don’t think Adam and Eve would’ve eaten the fruit. It is clear that the way they view the fruit changes only after the serpent tells them they will surely not die that day. I agree though that the devil does serve a role. I find it interesting that in Judaism Satan is viewed as someone whose God given job it is to challenge man.

 

[Giovonni]

Yes. Even Jesus “grew in wisdom” since he started out as a child. Adam and Eve were like children in that they’d not experienced temptation or been exposed to a scenario in which they had to choose between obeying God and not doing so. In order to help them grow in wisdom and experience, they needed to be tested. They failed their test, and we failed with them in the sense that we couldn’t inherit what they no longer had–sanctifying grace. They’re love for God was imperfect and that fault lies completely on them since God had provided for all their wants and needs and yet they disobeyed him when push came to shove. Love isn’t love if it does not love when challenged. Virtues need exercising in order to be perfected. They’re not automatically given to us–we need to gain them through practicing them–through relying on the grace of God to aid us.

I would go one step further. In order for true growth there must me be failure. Think of any activity you are an expert in and ask yourself how did you become better? You tried, made mistakes, learned how to improve. Testing or stressing is the means used, but without a breaking down, improvement cannot occur.

If I lift a 5 lb weight I will remain the same because my body is not under stress. When I lift a 50 lbs weight I struggle, my fibers rip, and I become weak. But with nourishment and healing I become stronger than I ever was.

 

[Della]

I would go one step further. In order for true growth there must me be failure. Think of any activity you are an expert in and ask yourself how did you become better? You tried, made mistakes, learned how to improve. Testing or stressing is the means used, but without a breaking down, improvement cannot occur.

If I lift a 5 lb weight I will remain the same because my body is not under stress. When I lift a 50 lbs weight I struggle, my fibers rip, and I become weak. But with nourishment and healing I become stronger than I ever was.

Well, I can’t say I agree completely. Certainly exercise helps by putting a bit of stress on muscles, etc. But doing damage is never a good idea. The idea “no pain no gain” is flawed–people who specialize in gaining strength through exercise will tell you not to do too much too soon and risk injury. I do Tai Chi, for example. At my age and physical condition it’s all I need for daily exercise. If I were to try to run a marathon based on doing Tai Chi alone, I’d fail miserably and possibly die. We build up muscle mass and agility, etc. gradually, not all at once.

Testing Adam and Eve was necessary but the test wasn’t beyond their strength–not if they’d loved God instead of merely obeying out of gratitude or because they’d never had a good reason not to. Being created a perfect human being–but one in need of learning obedience through being tested–shouldn’t have been too much for them. Like Lucifer before them, they had a choice put before them. They decided, of their own free will, to not only disobey but distort their sins into blaming God for their failure–ala many others who simply don’t want to/can’t face the fact that they have to take responsibility for their actions, and that their actions have real consequences.

 

[Giovonni]

Well, I can’t say I agree completely. Certainly exercise helps by putting a bit of stress on muscles, etc. But doing damage is never a good idea. The idea “no pain no gain” is flawed–people who specialize in gaining strength through exercise will tell you not to do too much too soon and risk injury. I do Tai Chi, for example. At my age and physical condition it’s all I need for daily exercise. If I were to try to run a marathon based on doing Tai Chi alone, I’d fail miserably and possibly die. We build up muscle mass and agility, etc. gradually, not all at once.

Actually doing damage is the exact way that muscle is built. However, I agree that too much damage is harmful. God’s infinite wisdom allows him to know how much damage we need to grow in love. He also provided us with rest and nourishment to ensure our recovery. Any good gym trainer will push you to the point of discomfort, recognizing when you’ve had enough, and then they will help you to replenish.

I think of Adam and Eve doing Tai Chi in the garden, happy and content. But it was God’s plan that we be able to run a marathon with him, an eternal one at that. As you know, going from Tai Chi to a 10k would take a lot of time, discomfort, and effort.

Testing Adam and Eve was necessary but the test wasn’t beyond their strength–not if they’d loved God instead of merely obeying out of gratitude or because they’d never had a good reason not to. Being created a perfect human being–but one in need of learning obedience through being tested–shouldn’t have been too much for them. Like Lucifer before them, they had a choice put before them. They decided, of their own free will, to not only disobey but distort their sins into blaming God for their failure–ala many others who simply don’t want to/can’t face the fact that they have to take responsibility for their actions, and that their actions have real consequences.

Free will is not free when we are deceived. Imagine the following: I have a young daughter and I put her in front of a fresh batch of cookies. I tell her not to eat them or she will get sick. I leave the room. Her mischievous uncle enters the room sometime later and tells her, go ahead your dad was just joking. He didn’t mean it. Guess what’s going to happen. She will eat the cookie. Would I be mad at her? No of course not, I would adore her and help her learn how to resist temptation in the future. Maybe I would ask her to wash the dishes (something unpleasant but useful). The next time her uncle comes around she will now be able to resist his mischievous charms.

 

[Della]

Actually doing damage is the exact way that muscle is built. However, I agree that too much damage is harmful. God’s infinite wisdom allows him to know how much damage we need to grow in love. He also provided us with rest and nourishment to ensure our recovery. Any good gym trainer will push you to the point of discomfort, recognizing when you’ve had enough, and then they will help you to replenish.

I think of Adam and Eve doing Tai Chi in the garden, happy and content. But it was God’s plan that we be able to run a marathon with him, an eternal one at that. As you know, going from Tai Chi to a 10k would take a lot of time, discomfort, and effort.

Anyone who thinks Tai Chi is easy knows nothing about it. I never said it was easy nor that it doesn’t require gaining muscle tone against discomfort. No, your analogy fails because Adam and Eve weren’t exercising at all. That’s the point. They were merely riding along, floating on God’s grace. They knew God and still failed to know him in love. Anyone who truly loves does not act as they did.

Free will is not free when we are deceived. Imagine the following: I have a young daughter and I put her in front of a fresh batch of cookies. I tell her not to eat them or she will get sick. I leave the room. Her mischievous uncle enters the room sometime later and tells her, go ahead your dad was just joking. He didn’t mean it. Guess what’s going to happen. She will eat the cookie. Would I be mad at her? No of course not, I would adore her and help her learn how to resist temptation in the future. Maybe I would ask her to wash the dishes (something unpleasant but useful). The next time her uncle comes around she will now be able to resist his mischievous charms.

Adam and Eve did not have a fallen nature, as your daughter does–no offense to her, we all have the same thing. They knew God’s grace and lived in it as perfectly created persons. The deception wasn’t unfairly put before them–they knew better, but they didn’t want to obey–not because the enticement was unfair or too great, but because they failed to love the one whom they were to obey. Sin is not automatic–each of us is responsible according to our circumstances and state of being. God didn’t make the test too hard for Adam and Eve. I will not blame God for the fall–that is impugning his honor who is all good and all compassionate. No, the fault lies completely at Adam and Eve’s feet–and that of the tempter. God’s punishments for their sin makes that very clear.

 

[Giovonni]

Anyone who thinks Tai Chi is easy knows nothing about it. I never said it was easy nor that it doesn’t require gaining muscle tone against discomfort. No, your analogy fails because Adam and Eve weren’t exercising at all. That’s the point. They were merely riding along, floating on God’s grace. They knew God and still failed to know him in love. Anyone who truly loves does not act as they did.

That is exactly my analogy. Adam and Eve were not exercising until the serpent came along. You say they failed to know him in love. That means they lacked something (the ability to truly love). We don’t fail to know something. Either we know it or we don’t. Thankfully God blessed us with the ability to learn and grow.

Adam and Eve did not have a fallen nature, as your daughter does–no offense to her, we all have the same thing. They knew God’s grace and lived in it as perfectly created persons. The deception wasn’t unfairly put before them–they knew better, but they didn’t want to obey–not because the enticement was unfair or too great, but because they failed to love the one whom they were to obey. Sin is not automatic–each of us is responsible according to our circumstances and state of being. God didn’t make the test too hard for Adam and Eve. I will not blame God for the fall–that is impugning his honor who is all good and all compassionate. No, the fault lies completely at Adam and Eve’s feet–and that of the tempter. God’s punishments for their sin makes that very clear.

The idea that something perfect can make an imperfect choice is a logical contradiction. Therein lies the problem. If Adam and Eve are perfect according to God’s standard then they would never be selfish. That’s like God saying “I really hope Adam and his descendants will stay in this garden forever, since they are a perfect resident of my paradise. But… just in case that doesn’t work, Jesus I may need you to go fix this.” In my opinion Jesus was never plan B, he was THE plan.

Ask yourself, would you rather be in the garden or in Heaven? In comparison to Heaven the garden of Eden will be undesirable. Why? Because in Heaven we won’t ever want to sin. We will never be kicked out of Heaven. Imagine that! But Heaven only happens through the fall and Jesus resurrection. Human’s were perfectly created in their imperfection because it accomplishes more than we can even imagine.

 

[Della]

That is exactly my analogy. Adam and Eve were not exercising until the serpent came along. You say they failed to know him in love. That means they lacked something (the ability to truly love). We don’t fail to know something. Either we know it or we don’t. Thankfully God blessed us with the ability to learn and grow.

Your last sentence is correct but not your reasoning. God could not impose loving him on them, but they were perfectly capable of it. Yes, we are blessed with the ability to learn and grow, but love is an action of the will, not something we learn or are endowed with. Either we want to love or we don’t–that’s up to us.

The idea that something perfect can make an imperfect choice is a logical contradiction. Therein lies the problem. If Adam and Eve are perfect according to God’s standard then they would never be selfish. That’s like God saying “I really hope Adam and his descendants will stay in this garden forever, since they are a perfect residents of my paradise. But… just in case that doesn’t work, Jesus I may need you to go fix this.” In my opinion Jesus was never plan B, he was THE plan.

Adam and Eve weren’t imperfect but they didn’t have divine perfection, only human perfection. Even being created perfect didn’t mean they’d automatically love God as he deserves to be loved–totally and unquestioningly. They had to decide to love him in that way, as we all do–that’s free will.

And I don’t believe Adam and Eve, and therefore all of us were meant to go on living in Eden forever, either, for Eden isn’t heaven, it was only the nursery and testing ground. If Adam and Eve had not fallen God would have given us Christ in another way. As C. S. Lewis put it, in some way that would have led him to even greater humility to prove his love for us–but that’s speculation for another thread. No, God knew that Adam and Eve would fall and that we’d need the Redeemer, but still the option to fail or not fail was entirely up to them. God gave them every advantage, but they failed through lack of love–even though they walked with God and knew him they didn’t develop agape love for him, which they could have achieved if they’d obeyed God rather than sinning.

Ask yourself, would you rather be in the garden or in Heaven? In comparison to Heaven the garden of Eden will be undesirable. Why? Because in Heaven we won’t ever want to sin. We will never be kicked out of Heaven. Imagine that! But Heaven only happens through the fall and Jesus resurrection. Human’s were perfectly created in their imperfection because it accomplishes more than we can even imagine.

Now you are contradicting your own definition of perfection. Adam and Eve weren’t “perfectly created in their imperfection.” We know this because God pronounced their creation as “good.” No. Adam and Eve failed because they didn’t subordinate their free will to God’s will for love of him.

 

[Giovonni]

Your last sentence is correct but not your reasoning. God could not impose loving him on them, but they were perfectly capable of it. Yes, we are blessed with the ability to learn and grow, but love is an action of the will, not something we learn or are endowed with. Either we want to love or we don’t–that’s up to us.

Our will was created by God. He could’ve made it anyway he wanted too. Your reasoning is not correct to say God couldn’t create our wills to be more loving. He determined how much we would be able to respond in love because he made our very being.

Adam and Eve weren’t imperfect but they didn’t have divine perfection, only human perfection. Even being created perfect didn’t mean they’d automatically love God as he deserves to be loved–totally and unquestioningly. They had to decide to love him in that way, as we all do–that’s free will.

Free will requires knowledge and the ability to discern truth from falsity. Clearly Adam and Eve didn’t have this because they had no knowledge of good and evil. Limited knowledge = limited will.

And I don’t believe Adam and Eve, and therefore all of us were meant to go on living in Eden forever, either, for Eden isn’t heaven, it was only the nursery and testing ground. If Adam and Eve had not fallen God would have given us Christ in another way. As C. S. Lewis put it, in some way that would have led him to even greater humility to prove his love for us–but that’s speculation for another thread. No, God knew that Adam and Eve would fall and that we’d need the Redeemer, but still the option to fail or not fail was entirely up to them. God gave them every advantage, but they failed through lack of love–even though they walked with God and knew him they didn’t develop agape love for him, which they could have achieved if they’d obeyed God rather than sinning.

Now you are contradicting your own definition of perfection. Adam and Eve weren’t “perfectly created in their imperfection.” We know this because God pronounced their creation as “good.” No. Adam and Eve failed because they didn’t subordinate their free will to God’s will for love of him.

This was a play on words. The literal meaning of it would be something along the lines of this: God created us in such a way that his purpose would be completed. His will is that Jesus is our salvation. But in order to receive salvation we must need to be saved. Everything God does is perfect. Including creating an Adam and Eve who ate the fruit. Including placing a serpent in the garden. Including the incarnation of his Son. Including everything that has happened up to this very moment.

Your speculation that if Adam hadn’t sinned Jesus would still be sent to redeem us some other way fails upon closer examination because being saved requires us to need saving.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Yes. Even Jesus “grew in wisdom” since he started out as a child. Adam and Eve were like children in that they’d not experienced temptation or been exposed to a scenario in which they had to choose between obeying God and not doing so. In order to help them grow in wisdom and experience, they needed to be tested. They failed their test, and we failed with them in the sense that we couldn’t inherit what they no longer had–sanctifying grace. They’re love for God was imperfect and that fault lies completely on them since God had provided for all their wants and needs and yet they disobeyed him when push came to shove. Love isn’t love if it does not love when challenged. Virtues need exercising in order to be perfected. They’re not automatically given to us–we need to gain them through practicing them–through relying on the grace of God to aid us.

Yes. And I think sometimes we forget who God is. God is not just some being who we can put on trial if we don’t like how things are. God is the author of not just our lives but of our true purpose in existence. And since God’s intention in creating us is revealed for a good purpose, and not for evil, we can not say He does not have morally justifying reasons for allowing evil to occur.

I think that where Adam and Eve went wrong is that they failed to trust God had this good purpose for them. Instead they wanted to take matters into their own hands, through the devil, who was offering them a way “to be like God” without having to die. They wanted something good, to be like God, but were not willing to wait for God’s timing. They thought they could attain it prematurely without God. As a consequence they had to struggle on their own without God.

 

[Della]

Our will was created by God. He could’ve made it anyway he wanted too. Your reasoning is not correct to say God couldn’t create our wills to be more loving. He determined how much we would be able to respond in love because he made our very being.

It’s no good saying God coulda or woulda or shoulda have done this or that. He created us in perfection–human perfection with free will. Your argument is very Calvinistic.

Free will requires knowledge and the ability to discern truth from falsity. Clearly Adam and Eve didn’t have this because they had no knowledge of good and evil. Limited knowledge = limited will.

So God didn’t give us free will according to your criteria, and I do emphasis the fact that it is your criteria not God’s. Free will has nothing to do with what we know or don’t know. It’s inherent, not earned or gained.

This was a play on words. The literal meaning of it would be something along the lines of this: God created us in such a way that his purpose would be completed. His will is that Jesus is our salvation. But in order to receive salvation we must need to be saved. Everything God does is perfect. Including creating an Adam and Eve who ate the fruit. Including placing a serpent in the garden. Including the incarnation of his Son. Including everything that has happened up to this very moment.

It still fails because it isn’t true that God created us to fail. God ever hopes that we will love him and do his will–he can do no other. It was a “happy fault” as the saints have said that we fell into sin since it gained for us our Redeemer, but God didn’t intend for us to fall into sin–for God never wills that we sin. I don’t know where you got the idea that we had to sin in order for God’s will to be accomplished but it’s simply not true.

Your speculation that if Adam hadn’t sinned Jesus would still be sent to redeem us some other way fails upon closer examination because being saved requires us to need saving.

As I wrote, it was C. S. Lewis’ idea, not mine. I merely wanted to point out that we cannot know what God would have done if Adam and Eve hadn’t sinned. We can only know what he did because they sinned.

 

[BobCatholic]

Adam and Eve had infused knowledge but not perfect knowledge. The knowledge they possessed was sufficient to the their needs to live and defend the garden and to obey God. God also gave them free will.

Perhaps a better analogy than software code errors to explain Adam’s failure is the analogy of the perfect plan poorly executed.

And why was it poorly executed? An imperfection on the part of Adam and Eve. God created them imperfect.

And I disagree they had sufficient knowledge. Did they know the snake could not be trusted? If they did, they’d know not to listen to what the snake had to say. They didn’t know this, so the information they had was insufficient. But hey, punishment time for messing up because they made a decision based on insufficient knowledge.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Adam and Eve could hardly be faulted for having limited knowledge. It was what they did with the knowledge they had. And, that they did not trust God enough because they bought into what the devil was selling. The devil was the first sleazy salesman.

 

[Dorothy]

More important question. Why was the devil here in the first place? Why did God have him thrown down to earth and not somewhere else?

God uses them to tempt us, and when we resist with His grace we grow to be more like God.

God’s plan is perfect.

 

[o_mlly]

And why was it poorly executed? An imperfection on the part of Adam and Eve. God created them imperfect.

God created Adam with the gift of free will allowing them to potentially to reject God’s will for his own or remain faithful. Free will does not make Adam imperfect. Adam’s abuse of his free will made him and us partially corrupted and now imperfect absent original holiness.

CCC#374 The first man was not only created good, but was also established in friendship with his Creator and in harmony with himself and with the creation around him, in a state that would be surpassed only by the glory of the new creation in Christ.
397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.279

And I disagree they had sufficient knowledge. Did they know the snake could not be trusted? If they did, they’d know not to listen to what the snake had to say. They didn’t know this, so the information they had was insufficient. But hey, punishment time for messing up because they made a decision based on insufficient knowledge.

Adam’s situation, like Mary’s situation was one of sufficient knowledge that God is good and is to be trusted. Adam said “No”; Mary said “Yes.”