Why wasn't abortion made illegal when the Republicans had all the power?

[vern_humphrey]

Laws can accomplish little or nothing if people’s hearts are not turned against abortion. That is where the fight needs to be concentrated.

It may be that making abortion illegal would cause some modest reduction in the practice but I highly doubt it. There are too many ways abortion could still be performed in this day and age (for example self-induced in the privacy of one’s home using drugs bought from overseas/via the internet/on the black market).

I’ll never tire of saying this, and any on this board who have lived in places or times where abortion was illegal can testify to this: people who really want an abortion will risk punishment (and even their very lives) to have one. The idea is to convert mindsets so that people do not desire abortion or feel forced into it

Of course, as long as we cannot officially show society’s condemnation of abortion by passing laws against it, we can’t “convert mindsets.”

This fascination we Catholics have with linking abortion, law and politics really does not acknowledge the realities of life in our millennium.

This fascination some Catholics have with treating abortion as something different from what it is, the deliberate killing of an innocent and helpless human being, really does not acknowledge the realities of life in our millennium.

 

[mary_bobo]

President Clinton did not veto that bill when it came before him, President Bush did.

Got the facts wrong. Clinton vetoed the bill Bush signed the bill.

Yet again, the Democratic Party proves to be the abortion party.

I refer you to post #35. Mea culpa.

 

[mschrank]

Hard to tell if you are serious or tongue in cheek on this one (isn’t that a shame that I can’t tell based on some posts I’ve seen on this Board).

If serious, then let’s propose death by a thousand little cuts, flaying, crucifixion, the oubliette or some other horrific method of execution - that would really make folks afraid.

If tongue in cheek - thank you.

I’ve always been partial to burning at the stake.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

Laws can accomplish little or nothing if people’s hearts are not turned against abortion. That is where the fight needs to be concentrated.

It may be that making abortion illegal would cause some modest reduction in the practice but I highly doubt it. There are too many ways abortion could still be performed in this day and age (for example self-induced in the privacy of one’s home using drugs bought from overseas/via the internet/on the black market).

I’ll never tire of saying this, and any on this board who have lived in places or times where abortion was illegal can testify to this: people who really want an abortion will risk punishment (and even their very lives) to have one. The idea is to convert mindsets so that people do not desire abortion or feel forced into it.

This fascination we Catholics have with linking abortion, law and politics really does not acknowledge the realities of life in our millennium.

But so long as abortion is enshrined in our society and promoted as a good thing (“choice” is a good thing, right? Everybody likes to have a “choice”, that’s what America is all about!), Fr. Pavone, the Pope, all the Catholics in the world can preach from the rooftops about the horrific, murderous reality of it, and it won’t make a bit of difference. If something is illegal, however, it automatically carries a stigma. Sure, people still do illegal things (that’s why prisons are full!), but society at large doesn’t approve, and most people want to be law abiding citizens and have others see them as good and righteous (even if they’re not religious at all, but civically good and righteous). Pedophilia is illegal, and, outside of NAMBLA, everyone acknowledges it for the abomination that it is (and pedophiles still abuse children, and need to be restrained and controlled and helped to change their mindset that this is a “good thing”). Abortion is not the sexual abuse of children, but worse, the MURDER of children! We need society to start recognizing that as the abomination that it is, but we can’t so long as law allows it! Sometimes behavior has to change first, before attitudes can.

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[vern_humphrey]

But so long as abortion is enshrined in our society and promoted as a good thing (“choice” is a good thing, right? Everybody likes to have a “choice”, that’s what America is all about!), Fr. Pavone, the Pope, all the Catholics in the world can preach from the rooftops about the horrific, murderous reality of it, and it won’t make a bit of difference. If something is illegal, however, it automatically carries a stigma.

And that is the crux of the argument. For people in the main to believe abortion is wrong, society must say it is wrong. And society does that by making it illegal.

As long as abortion is a “right,” we can never make headway in coinvincing the people people who count – the ones considering abortion – that it is really a “wrong.”

 

[seekerz]

Making abortion illegal is not going to make people hate it any more than making alcohol illegal made people hate beer. Maybe if it had never been made legal your reasoning about the stigma etc would have applied but alas, some magical stroke of a pen is not going to suddenly change people’s attitudes to hating something they once supported or were indifferent to.

Some like to use the analogy of slavery without acknowledging that the former slaveowners didn’t wake up one morning and suddenly hate slavery because the law changed - force had to be applied to abolish the practice. The problem with applying force in the case of abortion is, it can very easily today, be disguised and swept under the carpet away from the view of even the most astute. So how are we going to force the end of something we can’t even detect?

All that will change with a law (in the unlikely event it does change) is the way in which abortion is carried out. On the other hand, for every heart that is changed, more will turn against the practice (everybody who’s convinced will influence others) and lives will be saved.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Making abortion illegal is not going to make people hate it any more than making alcohol illegal made people hate beer. Maybe if it had never been made legal your reasoning about the stigma etc would have applied but alas, some magical stroke of a pen is not going to suddenly change people’s attitudes to hating something they once supported or were indifferent to.

We didn’t sit around and twiddle our thumbs on racial prejudice – we passed laws. The laws lead the change in attitude.

Some like to use the analogy of slavery without acknowledging that the former slaveowners didn’t wake up one morning and suddenly hate slavery because the law changed - force had to be applied to abolish the practice. The problem with applying force in the case of abortion is, it can very easily today, be disguised and swept under the carpet away from the view of even the most astute. So how are we going to force the end of something we can’t even detect?

The same way we enforce other laws that are often swept under the carpet – by identifying the practitioners and targeting them.

All that will change with a law (in the unlikely event it does change) is the way in which abortion is carried out. On the other hand, for every heart that is changed, more will turn against the practice (everybody who’s convinced will influence others) and lives will be saved.

And you guarentee all this psychoanalyzing?

 

[TMC]

Making abortion illegal is not going to make people hate it any more than making alcohol illegal made people hate beer. Maybe if it had never been made legal your reasoning about the stigma etc would have applied but alas, some magical stroke of a pen is not going to suddenly change people’s attitudes to hating something they once supported or were indifferent to.

Some like to use the analogy of slavery without acknowledging that the former slaveowners didn’t wake up one morning and suddenly hate slavery because the law changed - force had to be applied to abolish the practice. The problem with applying force in the case of abortion is, it can very easily today, be disguised and swept under the carpet away from the view of even the most astute. So how are we going to force the end of something we can’t even detect?

All that will change with a law (in the unlikely event it does change) is the way in which abortion is carried out. On the other hand, for every heart that is changed, more will turn against the practice (everybody who’s convinced will influence others) and lives will be saved.

I think that making abortion illegal would reduce the numbers, but its hard to say how much. Some studies suggest very little. Some people think that making it illegal will help convince people its wrong, but others say that the opposite.

I think that regardless of legality, the only way to end the practice in any meaningful way is to convince people that it is wrong. The problem so many activists have, is that they don’t really understand that pro-choice people really do not think its wrong. The vast majority do not believe that an early term unborn child is a real person yet. Its hard to convince them otherwise, because they then have to admit they have supported killing children.

As for the GOP, its hard to believe them when they say this is a top priority. I agree that the USSC is an issue now, but the Congress has not exactly tested the limits of Roe and Casey, and there other ways to work at the edges with the power of the purse and so on. Just don’t see them trying that hard, frankly.

 

[vern_humphrey]

II think that regardless of legality, the only way to end the practice in any meaningful way is to convince people that it is wrong.

As long as the court says it’s a right, it will be difficult to convince a lot of people that it’s really a wrong.

 

[MelanieAnne]

We need to re-define CHOICE as a society. I am pro-CHOICE too, I just make the CHOICE at a more appropriate time.

A person can CHOOSE not to have sex, not to risk making a baby. That’s REAL choice because the only one you are choosing for is yourself. This kind of CHOICE applies to both male and female.

When abortion is chosen, the baby doesn’t get to pick. That’s not real choice. That’s why the time of the choice has to be narrowed down to the right time.

I don’t think this is a matter of making more laws, or re-interpreting existing ones, so much as it is educating about life. Let pregnant women see the child. Educate them. This is what has been constrained so far. No one wants to show the woman about to have an abortion who she is about to kill.

And we can’t just educate pregnant women, we also need to educate the rest of society. Most people I know (the non-Catholics) don’t know what “partial birth abortion” means. When I explain it, they are horrified. These euphemisms are used to disguise the truth of the procedure, so to correct that we have to tell the whole truth, to define the words. Abortion in any form is infanticide.

 

[JReducation]

I am completely convinced that politicians’ rhetoric on abortion, for and against, is just that, all talk. Both parties know very well that a federal law prohibiting abortion would be ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. The only options would be to overturn Roe v. Wade or a constitutional amendment. These are possible, but not popular.

That being said, politicians from both sides take advantage of the lack of knowledge that the average American has regarding government by dangling abortion as a campaign issue during every election. Abortion has become the proverbial carrot to get votes.

The easiest path would be to reopen the matter before the Supreme Court, but who’s going to do that and how? Even then, there is no guarantee that the Court will retract its former ruling. A constitutional amendment would be an option, but it is both costly in terms of votes to those who propose it and probably has less chance of passing given the current mindset in the USA seems to favour less government intervention in matters that people consider private.

Just a disclaimer: I’m all for overturning Roe vs. Wade, but am at a loss as to how this will happen. The next alternative is good catechesis on moral choices.

 

[aimee]

We need to re-define CHOICE as a society. I am pro-CHOICE too, I just make the CHOICE at a more appropriate time.

A person can CHOOSE not to have sex, not to risk making a baby. That’s REAL choice because the only one you are choosing for is yourself. This kind of CHOICE applies to both male and female.

When abortion is chosen, the baby doesn’t get to pick. That’s not real choice. That’s why the time of the choice has to be narrowed down to the right time.

I don’t think this is a matter of making more laws, or re-interpreting existing ones, so much as it is educating about life. Let pregnant women see the child. Educate them. This is what has been constrained so far. No one wants to show the woman about to have an abortion who she is about to kill.

And we can’t just educate pregnant women, we also need to educate the rest of society. Most people I know (the non-Catholics) don’t know what “partial birth abortion” means. When I explain it, they are horrified. These euphemisms are used to disguise the truth of the procedure, so to correct that we have to tell the whole truth, to define the words. Abortion in any form is infanticide.

I wasn’t a wanted child…but my mother gave me a chance at life and a life with my adoptive parents…
adoption is a choice…and a chance

 

[MelanieAnne]

I wasn’t a wanted child…but my mother gave me a chance at life and a life with my adoptive parents…
adoption is a choice…and a chance

You got that right!!

There are many loving parents-in-waiting who would love to have a child, but cannot. I remember a young woman in my RCIA class who had made the hard choice to give up her child to adoption because, at the time, she knew she was not able to give the child a good home. She mourned the loss, but she knows she made the best choice for her child and the adoptive parents were, of course, thrilled beyond measure. She chose LIFE. This is where we need to put our energy, into choosing and respecting life.

 

[aimee]

You got that right!!

There are many loving parents-in-waiting who would love to have a child, but cannot. I remember a young woman in my RCIA class who had made the hard choice to give up her child to adoption because, at the time, she knew she was not able to give the child a good home. She mourned the loss, but she knows she made the best choice for her child and the adoptive parents were, of course, thrilled beyond measure. She chose LIFE. This is where we need to put our energy, into choosing and respecting life.

I met my biological Mom some years ago and we have a cordial relationship…God is good…

 

[john1863]

Why wasn’t abortion made illegal when the Republicans had all the power?

The reason is that you cannot possibly ban this act without changing minds.
Would any of you say that we should know the very minute a woman conceived?

What could we call that? “Womb watch.”

Abortions have been happening since humans have had babies.

If a woman, or a couple intens to kill their child…good luck in proving that. The modern abortion industry may be a blessing, at least for those who love life…you have somewhere to attempt to change minds.

John

 

[MelanieAnne]

I met my biological Mom some years ago and we have a cordial relationship…God is good…

Hi Aimee,

I am so glad for you. You not only had parents who loved you, you had a biological mother who had the courage, and the love, to give you to your parents.

I remember, so clearly, the young woman from my RCIA class ~ her name was Heather. She was so young when in class, so she must have been even younger when she made the decision to give her child up. She wept for the loss of her child. She knew she had made the right decision, but still, she continued to pray for her child and wonder about her life.

I pray that all young mothers in a similar situation will have the courage to make the same choice Heather did.

 

[seekerz]

John1863, while I don’t agree with all of your wording, you seemed to have pretty much hit the nail on the head. What’s to be achieved from outlawing something that can be hidden from detection? It pains me to see so much energy go into an effort that is several decades too late. The real chance for legal bandaids was back before Roe v. Wade. Politicians play us and we let them because we refuse to open our eyes lest we see.

To add to what someone said several posts above, it’s not just that pro-choicers don’t see abortion as wrong. It’s also about those who are too spoiled, selfish and callous to welcome a child. It’s also about those who see abortion as the lesser of two evils: the greater evil in their eyes being bringing a child into less than perfect circumstances.

I know of some people out there have had their innermost beings so warped by negative life experiences that they truly seem to believe a child is better off dead than unhappy in life. No amount of shouting abortion is wrong is going to sway such people because life as they know it itself seems wrong to them; their own lives seem wrong and they have no clue it is they lack that makes them feel that way.

The only law that going to cure people like that is the law of God’s love touching their hearts and the only ones who can do the touching are we who live in His love: not the legal system, not the political system, but us.

 

[john1863]

seekerz,

My words may not be as eloquent as I may like…but you did very well with this paragraph:

I know of some people out there have had their innermost beings so warped by negative life experiences that they truly seem to believe a child is better off dead than unhappy in life. No amount of shouting abortion is wrong is going to sway such people because life as they know it itself seems wrong to them; their own live

In a nutshell,

John

 

[MelanieAnne]

Seekerz, there’s another long-term effect and that is the rationalization of those who had an abortion long ago. In my experience, such persons continue to advocate that abortion should be allowed, even if they would no longer choose one. I believe someone may have already mentioned this effect, but I have seen it within my own circle of associates.

I know someone who had an abortion years ago. At the time, she thought it was “not a good time” to have a baby, even though she was married at the time. (Which is beyond my understanding, but that’s an entirely different topic!)

To this day, she continues to advocate “a woman’s right to choose”. I strongly suspect it is because she cannot bear to look at what she did as anything other than a “choice”. To look at it as murder would be too hard for her. So those who have had abortions will continue to advocate abortion to validate their own choice, almost reflexively. It’s so sad.

 

[geovet]

question,

Who will be at the local mill tomorrow trying to help give someone a better choice?

George