Why wasn't abortion made illegal when the Republicans had all the power?

[Nohome]

Ah…now I see the distinction you are making. My apologies. It’s all clear to me now.

So, according to science, life never begins. (or it did…at the dawn of time…we’ve just been transforming ever since.)

I guess, in that case, we should be able to kill anyone at any age at anytime. I mean, they have only transformed, so their life never really began. :juggle:

Cute, but seriously, science really doesn’t care when life begins. I can’t think of a reason science would care.

Your second comment, equally cute, is a matter of civil law, not science.

Nohome

 

[johnnykins]

Interesting arguments johnnykins. I’m not sure what the punishments for someone who broke an abortion law would be - I doubt that it would be capital punishment.

Too often you hear/see people say its “murder” - well where does that lead you to? So murder of an adult is a capital crime, but a baby - well that’s different. If you agree to that - we’re already talking the same language - just a matter of degree separates us.

But, since you apparently accept that it is morally wrong and the taking of a life, why do you argue that it should be legal?

I didn’t argue it should be “legal” I argued that it should not be made a crime - and by that I mean subject to criminal prosecution. That may be hair splitting, but I see nothing to be gained to civil society by suggesting we put people in jail over this issue. It will cause people to dig their heels in and oppose acknowledging the problems - especially the moral problems - with abortion. If we agree that criminal sanctions are not appropriate then i think we can start building a societal consensus on the wrongness of abortion, develop support plans for those who would otherwise want abortions, and generally deal with the issue in a way to reduce the numbers, support children and families and not feed the criminal justice ogre devouring our nation. The very hint of criminality will lead to continued claims for the morality of abortion as a “Choice” that will eat at the very moral fiber of the nation and world. So let’s just all say its morally wrong, but that we need to all be supportive of both the mothers, children and others involved so they don’t go down that road.

In the other cases you mentioned, war and self-defense, the person killed has actually done something and/or the action (i.e. war) was based on an action by someone else that brought about the killing. What did an unborn child do that they deserve to die? I don’t see the equivalency.

Not trying to make any equivilency - simply noting some other reasons for allowed killing in response to your question.

EDIT ADD: BTW…I applaud other efforts (and don’t care which party proposes them) that discourage abortions, but we can do those at the same time that abortion is also made illegal.

 

[rlg94086]

Cute, but seriously, science really doesn’t care when life begins. I can’t think of a reason science would care.

Your second comment, equally cute, is a matter of civil law, not science.

Nohome

As I said, I understand the distinction you are making. IOW…science is useless in the discussion of whether abortion should be made legal or not. So, I don’t care what science says on the matter, and you shouldn’t either. Bottomline…life begins at conception, therefore it should be protected. Since science doesn’t care when it begins, there is no scientific argument against that fact.

 

[Nohome]

As I said, I understand the distinction you are making. IOW…science is useless in the discussion of whether abortion should be made legal or not. So, I don’t care what science says on the matter, and you shouldn’t either.

Yes, I agree.

Bottomline…life begins at conception,

No, I disagree.

it should be protected. Since science doesn’t care when it begins, there is no scientific argument against that fact.

O.K., fine. Just don’t try to manage the unborn as citizens, it opens a legal pandora’s box.

Nohome

 

[MelanieAnne]

I have a question about this “capital punishment for abortion” issue. Does anyone truly believe, were Roe v. Wade overturned, that anyone would be facing capital punishment if they had an abortion? Or does this line of argument have some other purpose?

Were Roe v. Wade to be overturned sometime in the future, abortions would not necessarily become illegal overnight. The only thing that would happen would be that the legality of the procedure would revert to state law rather than federal law. The individual states would decide whether or not the procedure would continue and, if so, under what circumstances.

I know of no situation in the past, prior to Roe v. Wade, where anyone connected with performing an abortion was given the death penalty, so is this just a red herring? If not, what is this argument based on?

 

[rlg94086]

Yes, I agree.

No, I disagree.

O.K., fine. Just don’t try to manage the unborn as citizens, it opens a legal pandora’s box.

Nohome

While we disagree on whether life begins at conception, I am in complete agreement that they should not be managed as citizens. Please let me know who is advocating that. I don’t know the wording of the personhood amendment which is the question of this thread, but I am pretty certain that it would not give all the rights of citizenship to an unborn child.

 

[ribozyme]

You shouldn’t keep your head buried in ultraliberal blogs…it skews your view of reality.

What about reading stuff from the Economic Policy Institute, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities and from Center for American Progress? Stuff like this:

According to the most recent Gallup data from May of this year, a plurality of the country (49 percent to 45 percent) considers itself pro-choice rather than pro-life —an entirely typical result. Indeed, all 28 polls (save one, where there was a tie) where Gallup has asked this question, dating back to 1995, have returned a pro-choice plurality or majority.

Interestingly, a variant wording of this question used by Newsweek yields an even stronger pro-choice result. Newsweek asked: “Which side of the political debate on the abortion issue do you sympathize with more: the right-to-life movement that believes abortion is the taking of human life and should be outlawed; OR, the pro-choice movement that believes a woman has the right to choose what happens to her body, including deciding to have an abortion?” In the three times Newsweek has asked this question since 1998, an average of 54 percent selected the pro-choice option, compared to 37 percent who selected the right–to-life option.

In addition, in a January Gallup poll, 59 percent of the public either believes abortion laws should remain as they are (36 percent) or be made less strict (23 percent). This is an even more typical result: every Gallup poll since 2003 has returned either 59 percent or 60 percent support on this question

americanprogress.org/issues/2007/06/wtprw_repro.html

and

americanprogress.org/issues/2007/04/opinion_abortion.html

 

[rlg94086]

What about reading stuff from the Economic Policy Institute, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities and from Center for American Progress? Stuff like this:

americanprogress.org/issues/2007/06/wtprw_repro.html

and

americanprogress.org/issues/2007/04/opinion_abortion.html

I’ve read those, and I believe they are accurate (which is why I am am skeptical of the author I quoted). However, I think momentum is on our side. The candidates are not as vocally pro-choice as they used to be and the Democrats for Life are getting some traction.

Also, I remember reading that younger people are more pro-life, which gives me hope…it probably has to do with the pro-choicers who aborted there wouldbe pro-choice children versus the pro-lifers who had the children and taught them the truth (some call it “the Roe effect”).

So, I pray. And, while I would prefer that my Catholic Democratic friends would vote Republican, I am at least heartened that many of them are fighting to bring pro-life stances to the forefront of their party. It has paid off…just listen to the nuanced positions. Democrats now claim that they are pro-life and trying to reduce abortions. They used to proudly argue that there was nothing wrong with abortion.

 

[johnnykins]

I have a question about this “capital punishment for abortion” issue. Does anyone truly believe, were Roe v. Wade overturned, that anyone would be facing capital punishment if they had an abortion? Or does this line of argument have some other purpose?

Were Roe v. Wade to be overturned sometime in the future, abortions would not necessarily become illegal overnight. The only thing that would happen would be that the legality of the procedure would revert to state law rather than federal law. The individual states would decide whether or not the procedure would continue and, if so, under what circumstances.

I know of no situation in the past, prior to Roe v. Wade, where anyone connected with performing an abortion was given the death penalty, so is this just a red herring? If not, what is this argument based on?

The issue of abortion as murder subject to capital crime treatment is a logical extension of the polarization of the issue and use of the term “murder” that so frequently attaches itself to the issue. If indeed it is treated as murder then one has to suppose that those states that retain execution will need to be looking at that analysis. It’s true that prior to Roe no state that I am aware of treated abortion as murder - of course the rhetoric was not nearly as strident - nor was murder referenced in much of the discussion concerning abortion at that time. It was a separate offense. Will that continue? Hard to say. With states having declared embryos to be people the easy analysis leads to treating a blastocyst the same as a 15 year old. Possibly we should - but society is not ready for that, IMHO. Read many posts on this board and the issue of treating abortion as a capital offense is anything but a red herring - or a mere hypothetical possibility in the minds of many. Add to all that the demagogic criminalization of so much that has arisen over the past 20 years so that politicians can be “strong on crime” and the possibility of a serious attempt to treat abortion as a capital issue is further strengthened.

 

[MelanieAnne]

The issue of abortion as murder subject to capital crime treatment is a logical extension of the polarization of the issue and use of the term “murder” that so frequently attaches itself to the issue. If indeed it is treated as murder then one has to suppose that those states that retain execution will need to be looking at that analysis. It’s true that prior to Roe no state that I am aware of treated abortion as murder - of course the rhetoric was not nearly as strident - nor was murder referenced in much of the discussion concerning abortion at that time. It was a separate offense. Will that continue? Hard to say. With states having declared embryos to be people the easy analysis leads to treating a blastocyst the same as a 15 year old. Possibly we should - but society is not ready for that, IMHO. Read many posts on this board and the issue of treating abortion as a capital offense is anything but a red herring - or a mere hypothetical possibility in the minds of many. Add to all that the demagogic criminalization of so much that has arisen over the past 20 years so that politicians can be “strong on crime” and the possibility of a serious attempt to treat abortion as a capital issue is further strengthened.

Good point. When I had come in contact with this idea before it often seemed as if the person was using it as a way to ridicule the pro-life stance. But it is certainly true that the rhetoric has become more strident and perhaps some people would favor the death penalty in abortion cases were abortions declared illegal sometime in the future. I have never seen anyone have that as a goal, but I wouldn’t rule it out.

As a first step, rather than perpetuate the endless argument that has been going on since Roe v. Wade was determined and which may not end unless and until the decision is overturned, if then, I’d sooner see the government at all levels get out of the abortion business. No more financing of abortion. No more funding of organizations who provide abortions, regardless of the stated purpose of the funding. People I know that are “pro-choice” even agree with this concept.

That first step, of course, would not end abortion, but at least those who find the practice abhorrent would know that they are no longer paying for it to happen through their taxes. That’s a step that Congress CAN take, and every state government can take.

 

[scott1228]

MA:

That is a red herring. All of those in power that have advocated making it illegal have suggested punishments for the doctors that perform them rather than the women who receive them.

I believe that the women will be punished enough through their guilt, and wouldn’t advocate any criminal penalty for the woman receiving.

Scott

 

[Hastrman]

What about reading stuff from the Economic Policy Institute, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities and from Center for American Progress?QUOTE]

Statistics is an inexact science, and anyone intelligent can get any result they want. So I ask:

1. What were the specific questions asked?
2. What makes a given respondent’s answers “pro-choice” or “pro-life?”

 

[Valke2]

MA:

That is a red herring. All of those in power that have advocated making it illegal have suggested punishments for the doctors that perform them rather than the women who receive them.

I believe that the women will be punished enough through their guilt, and wouldn’t advocate any criminal penalty for the woman receiving.

Scott

If abortion is murder, then I don’t think one should vote for any candidate who won’t impose either a life sentence or capital punishment on any woman who commits the crime. If it is not really murder, than it is everyone who keeps saying that abortion=murder who are putting forth a red herring argument.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

If abortion is murder, then I don’t think one should vote for any candidate who won’t impose either a life sentence or capital punishment on any woman who commits the crime. If it is not really murder, than it is everyone who keeps saying that abortion=murder who are putting forth a red herring argument.

I would prefer graphic representation of what is happening be made available viewing in all schools at all ages that have “sex” education (indoctrination).; If it’s a choice, and evil is a choice, let’s make it a well informed choice. Then maybe it will go back to, like murder, being an illegal choice: Ultrasounds before, video during, presentation of the remains of the dead baby to the mother for burial, not washed down a drain or thrown in the garbage or stacked up like a mountain of corpses.

It is a bumper sticker to try to drive home that this is a human life being killed. Babies are dying; those who have come through grace to see this have a cross to bear: the knowlege that our country is killing off the most innocent of her people in a place that Jesus once was: His mother’s womb.

 

[Valke2]

I would prefer graphic representation of what is happening be made available viewing in all schools at all ages that have “sex” education (indoctrination).; If it’s a choice, and evil is a choice, let’s make it a well informed choice. Then maybe it will go back to, like murder, being an illegal choice: Ultrasounds before, video during, presentation of the remains of the dead baby to the mother for burial, not washed down a drain or thrown in the garbage or stacked up like a mountain of corpses.

It is a bumper sticker to try to drive home that this is a human life being killed. Babies are dying; those who have come through grace to see this have a cross to bear: the knowlege that our country is killing off the most innocent of her people in a place that Jesus once was: His mother’s womb.

If you feel that abortion in murder of babies. If that is how someone is going to frame the argument, then I choose to work within the frame of that argument. If abortion is murder, then the doctor and the patient should be tried as murderers. And the penalties should be the penalties that we as a society impose on murderers.

If someone finds the idea of life in prison or captial punishment for a woman who has an abortion, they need to ask themselves why.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Perhaps legislation is not the way out of this mess. Perhaps, as Michael has noted, education would be of value (except that the pro-abortion folks would have a fit).

We’ve been in a civil war in this country over this issue since Roe v. Wade was decided. Principally, I believe the civil war has come about because we didn’t vote on the decision, instead it was imposed on us by the judges of the Supreme Court.

As a result, both sides of this argument deal in hyperbole and a variety of other obfuscating devices in their rhetoric. There may be a solution to this problem, but passing laws, or even overturning Roe v. Wade will not do it. Abortion is now big business and is for many the first choice in dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. It has become the “natural” choice in our society, it is accepted by a vast number of people as OK and many people see it as a symbol of personal freedom. Those are big problems that will not have any easy fix no matter how much some of us believe that killing the unborn is wrong.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Many Catholics that I talk to that vote for pro-choice candidates state that - while they personally are against abortion - they feel it is a moral issue that should not be decided in the polls. They do not want to push there views on somebody else.

I remind them that slavery was also a moral issue - but they typically dismiss the arguement (quickly) stating that there is no comparing slavery to abortion.

They’re right – as bad as slavery was, slaves were not killed and flushed down the sink or disposed of as “medical waste.”

 

[Al_Masetti]

Perhaps legislation is not the way out of this mess. Perhaps, as Michael has noted, education would be of value (except that the pro-abortion folks would have a fit).

We’ve been in a civil war in this country over this issue since Roe v. Wade was decided. Principally, I believe the civil war has come about because we didn’t vote on the decision, instead it was imposed on us by the judges of the Supreme Court.

As a result, both sides of this argument deal in hyperbole and a variety of other obfuscating devices in their rhetoric. There may be a solution to this problem, but passing laws, or even overturning Roe v. Wade will not do it. Abortion is now big business and is for many the first choice in dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. It has become the “natural” choice in our society, it is accepted by a vast number of people as OK and many people see it as a symbol of personal freedom. Those are big problems that will not have any easy fix no matter how much some of us believe that killing the unborn is wrong.

On television, the show films of cosmetic surgery, organ transplants, tumor removal … you name it. But when is the last time you saw a film of an abortion being performed.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Thank God for WWII and the holocaust. I don’t know what anti-choice people would do without it.{/quote]
My, aren’t we nasty!
Valke2;3400993:

A candidate can be pro-choice and choose on a personal level to be against abortion. There’s a difference between believing abortion is wrong and believing it should be legislated out of existence.

Just like many Germans weren’t personally involved in rounding up people and sending them to the camps – they just supported the ones who were.

There’s a difference between believing gassing people on an assembly line basis is wrong and believing it should be legislated out of existence

 

[MelanieAnne]

On television, the show films of cosmetic surgery, organ transplants, tumor removal … you name it. But when is the last time you saw a film of an abortion being performed.

Exactly. Most people have not only not seen one, they have not even heard it described.

One day I actually told my adult daughter what a “partial birth” abortion was. To me, any reasonable person, even one that was “pro-choice” for the 1st trimester, would classify “partial birth” abortion as infanticide. But my daughter didn’t even know what it was. When she found out, she was horrified. I suspect that most people have no idea what these procedures really consist of.