Why we’re forgetting the Holocaust

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Vonsalza said:
However, I don’t find the premise of preservation to be particularly sound, ergo my dissent.
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I would not want to guess or speak of what your motivations are of feeling this way, but for many of us, allowing a historic site like this to decay and fall in, is the same in the minds of many, as sweeping the crimes of humanity under the carpet. We need this visual reminder to show future generations what mankind is capable of. Hence “never forget.”
 
2towers said:
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Vonsalza:
However, I don’t find the premise of preservation to be particularly sound, ergo my dissent.
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I would not want to guess or speak of what your motivations are of feeling this way, but for many of us, allowing a historic site like this to decay and fall in, is the same in the minds of many, as sweeping the crimes of humanity under the carpet. We need this visual reminder to show future generations what mankind is capable of. Hence “never forget.”
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That’s kind of my point.

When the situation arises where we’re desperate enough on a macro-social level to follow a Charismatic mad man, we DO forget. Gladly.

Read Ordinary Men. It’s the story of guys like you and me that were so upset about killing Jews in WW2 that some contemplated suicide.

A year in, the same men (us) would spend the day liquidating a Jewish community and then roll smokes and joke about their wives/girlfriends/mistresses at night.

When the conditions are right, we absolutely do forget.
 
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With all due respect, I don’t see where you have made that point.

While it is true that in all likelihood that mass killings by dictators will continue to occur, [North Korea] Visual reminders, places, like Auschwitz, Sobibor, Treblinka, Dachau, Belzec, Chlemno, just to name a very few, are needed. Millions of the murdered deserve to have their story told. They deserve a standing memorial. Ink wont cut it. The evidence of such evil needs to be maintained, hopefully as a deterrent and a warning, of what can happen again, should evil of that magnitude be allowed to flourish.

While it is true, that there are people who might find it horrific now, only to participate it later, I utterly reject the thinking that these visual reminders don’t help in discouraging these types of things from happening again. Can it prevent them, no, but it makes it more difficult for an entire society from executing such madness to the levels of WWII.
 
2towers said:
With all due respect, I don’t see where you have made that point.
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To the contrary, I don’t think THEY have made a point that justifies the expense of maintaining these monuments to human horror.

It’s not like genocide stopped in 1945…
Visual reminders, places, like Auschwitz, Sobibor, Treblinka, Dachau, Belzec, Chlemno, just to name a very few, are needed.
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When we get into a tight enough spot that 20% of the population (roughly the % of Germans who were Nazis) are willing to go for it, visual reminders won’t stop anyone from doing anything.
Millions of the murdered deserve to have their story told.
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More died in China in the next decade. Nearly as many died in Ukraine within the next decade after the war ended…

Do you know their stories???

We are awash in industrial-scale human suffering. I need no reminders.
…a warning, of what can happen again, should evil of that magnitude be allowed to flourish.
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If people are ever that desperate again, they won’t care.
 
You really need to wipe the word “axiomatic” out of your vocabulary. You wield it as a means of supporting relativism. There are better and worse arguments in favor of maintaining death camps. Because you cling to the notion that all opinions are simply axiomatic, they’re all of relative value. That’s categorically false. It’s not self-evident that they should be maintained, and those who champion their upkeep don’t believe it’s self-evident either. They have specific reasons for doing so.

You have not addressed, for example, the claim that Auschwitz is a graveyard and therefore it would be inappropriate to permit a “farm or housing development” to be placed upon it. Are you normally against the existence of all cemeteries?

You have not addressed, for example, the claim that as a species we see value in preserving other historical locations. Why not permit medieval buildings, for example, to fall into disrepair? Or the Roman Colosseum?

You have not addressed, for example, the claim that humans have a history of trying to ignore the traces of their immoral actions. Why should Auschwitz be permitted to rot when it was the intention of the Nazis to destroy it and forever hide what took place there?

There isn’t just a nationwide benefit to Auschwitz being maintained. There’s a global benefit. But even on the national level, given the virulent resurgence of antisemitism in Poland, it certainly seems to have a value there, as well.

As for Rwanda, why has Holocaust education been implemented there in the wake of the genocide? Why do Holocaust survivors travel there to help with reconciliation efforts?
 
The average person neither knows nor needs to know the history of the Gypsies, Knanayas, Igbo, Zulu, or any other random group of people in the world. Why are the Jews special?
 
Vonsalza said:
When we get into a tight enough spot that 20% of the population (roughly the % of Germans who were Nazis) are willing to go for it, visual reminders won’t stop anyone from doing anything.
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So what holocaust memorials were standing in honor of millions and millions murdered prior to WWII for the Germans to take note of?
 
2towers said:
We need this visual reminder to show future generations what mankind is capable of.
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It’s really interesting how the Holocaust has taken on a quasi-religious status (including in countries that were part of the Allies).
 
Arkansan said:
The average person neither knows nor needs to know the history of the Gypsies, Knanayas, Igbo, Zulu, or any other random group of people in the world. Why are the Jews special?
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In a phrase, the Final Solution to the Jewish Question.

That said, the educational efforts of my colleagues, me, museums like the USHMM, etc. all teach about the variety of victim groups. No one is saying they’re not significant.
 
gracepoole said:
Yes, and the fact that much of it is wooded over is…creepy. Hearing birds singing, seeing wildflowers and vegetation growing… Very still and very disturbing. I should look at the aerials of it sometime. That’s a great suggestion.
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Yeah, even without any visual cues it’s a place I’d visit ONCE and be too haunted afterwards to ever do it again. I know too damn much about what happened there. And reresearching it yesterday (because of this thread) gave me vivid reminders.
 
Keep reading the thread. You’re really out of your depth here.

And honestly, with that, I’ll head off this thread now. There are enough claims being shared that rub against antisemitic attitudes that I feel…slimy here. I will offer a note of thanks, though, for providing further evidence for classroom discussions of the attitudes that are out there and why our educational efforts are more necessary than ever.
 
Arkansan said:
It’s really interesting how the Holocaust has taken on a quasi-religious status (including in countries that were part of the Allies).
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Could you please explain how the Holocaust remembrances and memorials to the murdered have taken on quasi-religious status?
 
I partly agree in that I believe Jews should not identify themselves or be identified by others ONLY with regard to the Holocaust, just as Blacks should not think of themselves ONLY in terms of slavery. People are so much more than victims of the injustices of the past. At the same time, I think it is important for us to remember the evil deeds of the past, if, for no other reason, than to remind us of what can happen when society and the world are indifferent to the plight of fellow human beings or treat them as less than human. It is a good lesson for all of us to keep in mind even, and perhaps especially, in the present era.
 
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2towers said:
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Vonsalza:
When we get into a tight enough spot that 20% of the population (roughly the % of Germans who were Nazis) are willing to go for it, visual reminders won’t stop anyone from doing anything.
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So what holocaust memorials were standing in honor of millions and millions murdered prior to WWII for the Germans to take note of?
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I’m not aware of any holocaust memorials that pre-date the holocaust. 🤔

But on genocide; Hitler himself is quoted as referencing the Armenian genocide that ended just a few decades earlier.

You saying that the desperation and malaise of the post-Treaty of Versailles German nation wouldn’t have materialized into violence against a scapegoat group if they were told about the Armenian genocide in a sympathetic light?
 
The difference between me and those of your mindset on the issue is that these superficial school trip lessons aren’t going to remind us of anything when we’re placed in a similarly desperate position as the post-treaty German people.

I hope you don’t detect any animosity in the statement. It’s simply cold reality as I see it.
 
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