Why we believe in God

[geometer]

I went to the website but couldn’t follow it. can you summarize?

The website illustrates the relationship of the platonic solids to the tree of life. The Tree of Life is known as a glyph, and organizes the traditional system of Jewish mysticism known as Kabbalah. The ontology of all things according to the mystics emmanates from ten divine attributes, these are called the sephirot, or countings.

The five plationc solids, two star solids, and three compound platonic solids, correspond to these ten emmanations. Most of the corrrespondence is in counting coincidences in the geometrical attributes of the forms and gematria sums of the letters of divine names which are traditionally associated with the ten sephirot.

All of the platonic forms can be constructed within the star dodecahedron, which would be a model of the tree of life, and also a five part metaphor of the soul, derived from the Shema in Deutoronomy 6.

The five parts of the soul are:

heart within soul within mind within might within the senses.

There are ten pairs among these parts which when well ordered correspond to the decalogue.

The ten sephirot are traditionally ordered in a sequence and in that sequence the names of the sephirot are harmonius with the ten phrases of the Our Father.



www.theosopher.com

 

[geometer]

**

This is very true to all former philosophies (mathematics, physics, chemistry, geographic and so on) before they became classical studies.
Christianity though, is a truth, atheists never will understand until they will see – which they will.

Why then do atheists not simply wait and see, instead of arguing, instead of an attitude like: “…let those Christians believe what they might, it doesn’t harm them”.
Christians though think: “…I can’t afford to be guilty, when this atheist walks right into his doom, because I didn’t tell him.

Now; which of the two is love?!
Christians can in love try to, but not really present atheists God’s truth.

The side “geometer” presents in www.theosopher.com**, is totally queer too, might be even funny, but hasn’t got anything to do with faith in God; not the slightest with Catholicism! Simply funky stuff of a sect, founded in the 1800’s by the occultist Helena Petrovna Blavatsky who incorporates geometry into faith. She was rightly called a fraud by many, for the obscure things she claimed.

Theosophy is far off Christianity and Jesus Christ!
This sects efforts of contacting spirits as a medium and stuff, is definitely against Christian Faith. Really nothing to think twice about. A sect of nonchristians – here displaced in any case.

---

one might find more about this queer theme, here
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Steel_Olcott

The essay at my website is about kabbalistic theosophy. It has nothing to do with the promotion of theosophical ideas by Madame Helena Petrovna Blavatsky.

I have read the major works of HPB and she never developed or promoted a doctrine of faith based on geometry. If you have read something from her that leads you to think she did, I would be grateful for a reference to that.

Kabbalah is a system of theosophy, which is based on a contemplation of the tree of life. The fruit of the tree of life represent the ultimate heavenly reward in the last chapter of Revelation, chapter 22.

The kabbalists have provided insights into cosmology which are harmonius with the most recent findings by modern scientific cosmologists.



www.theosopher.com

 

[wina]

It’s very interesting thread. I’ve tried to learn about God from other religion views as I live in the country where there are Buddha, Hindu, Islam even Christian and Catholic. They have many different kind view about God although God is ONLY ONE. So I think God is beyond our understanding and knowledge so we are not able to describe who God really is.
But in my personal opinion, God is love and He is always beside me and help me whenever I face problems in my life:thumbsup:

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Leela’s and all atheists persistent question: “Do you have any evidence” let’s others work and think for them, instead of undertaking any efforts to work out themselves.

No, I’m not going to keep on presenting consideration to those, who’s idleness lets others do this, just for their entertainment.
Lack of ability for reasonable discussion, is no license for continuous asking for further evidence, particularly as negative response is bound to follow. See 1Cor 2,14:
The natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually.

“wina”, you being “prayer warrior”, surely know there is but one God. Christians, Moslems and Jews recognize the single existing God of Abraham and Isaak Gen 28,13. Jews and Moslems however do not recognize Jesus Christ as Son of God and God Himself, though Jesus the Messiah was predicted in the Old Testament in detailed description in very many verses.

See e.g. the nailing onto the cross in Psalm 22,17; the reward for Judas’ betrayal and Judas throwing the 30 pieces of silver back on them, predicted in Zech 11,12-13. And countless details more that give evidence - to those who are willing to understand.

Those who want to understand, will be given understanding. Those who do not, will never understand, according to Acts 28,26: "Well did the holy Spirit speak to your ancestors through the prophet Isaiah, saying: ”Go to this people and say: You shall indeed hear but not understand. You shall indeed look but never see.”
**

 

[twb1621]

This sounds much like the argument that goes something like, “Well, if so many people believe it, it couldn’t possibly be wrong, could it?” But humans are credible creatures, disposed to believe whatever their social group believes - especially when deviating from that belief carries a real threat of persecution and possibly even death.

That is a foolish comparison to make after my previous posts. Regardless, according to your theory of human nature, explain the reaction of the apostles abandoning their fear of torture and death to suddenly go forth and proclaim the gospel leaving the safety of their hiding places if it were not for witnessing the risen Christ…

Another thing to consider is that it wasn’t until at least the 18th century that people really started making scientific discoveries that called Christian belief into question. It’s really interesting to note that in the 19th century, when medical researchers had been dissecting bodies for around 350 years already, people still reacted with horror when they heard of bodies being cut up after death - because how could a body be resurrected when it was all in pieces? The human mind is apt to make connections, and will fabricate them where it finds none that are observably true. The more we find out about the natural world and about the universe, the fewer the gaps our minds are compelled to fill with a supernatural power.

Christian belief has always been called into question by non-believers which shows nothing considering it always questions without substance. You can question anything but it proves nothing wrong. I don’t know where you received your information from but you verify the fact you know nothing of the history of Christianity by the subjects you are raising.

I have to admit that, as a former Catholic, the thing that struck me most forcibly was how many controls exist in the Catholic faith against questioning. Faith is constructed as a virtue - recall Christ’s words to St Thomas: “You believe because you have seen. How much more blessed are they who have not seen, and yet believe?” Questioning church teaching is made out to be an act of arrogance or selfishness. My favourite is the idea of the “false conscience” - if your conscience tells you that going against church teaching is acceptable, preferable or in any way ‘right’, then obviously your conscience is misinformed and in need of instruction.

What’s an honest, rational mind to do?

So you are one of those who once as a Catholic, knew your faith and the teachings of God so well you recognized the falsities of the Church and it’s desire to keep you and others in control for… what was the reason you came up with??? I’d like to see if your ignorance to your faith was comparable to mine before I grew up and actually learned all that I didn’t know in the Truth.

 

[twb1621]

Which religion are you talking about?

You’ve suggested that I look into the origins of Christianity. I have. I was raised by Christian parents. What I was wondering about your posts is whether you looked into any other religions and how you decided that Catholicism is true and the others are false.

Best,
Leela

Well, it takes more than “looking into it” to learn it. If you research the history and origin of Christianity it proves it on its own. All Christian faiths are within the historic studies of Christianity but like the old expression say’s, all roads lead to Rome. Actually it is true in this case. Man can separate from the true Church of Jesus and instill their own theories and beliefs into a new faith as they establish it, but it is still derived from the Catholic faith altered to someone’s theories instead of the teachings as they were. As far as other religious beliefs outside of Christianity, none have the continuity throughout history for as long as history can be researched when you compare both Old Testament and New Testament and the prophecies of each not to mention the accuracy of the prophecies.

 

[Leela]

Well, it takes more than “looking into it” to learn it. If you research the history and origin of Christianity it proves it on its own. All Christian faiths are within the historic studies of Christianity but like the old expression say’s, all roads lead to Rome. Actually it is true in this case. Man can separate from the true Church of Jesus and instill their own theories and beliefs into a new faith as they establish it, but it is still derived from the Catholic faith altered to someone’s theories instead of the teachings as they were. As far as other religious beliefs outside of Christianity, none have the continuity throughout history for as long as history can be researched when you compare both Old Testament and New Testament and the prophecies of each not to mention the accuracy of the prophecies.

Don’t you think any Muslim would say the same about Islam? That if you studied it deeply enough, you could not help but see the truth of it? What is striking to me is that every religion says that every other religion is false, and it is obvious to any Catholic that Islam (or whatever religion you want to insert) has been set up to be immune from honest inquiry and is based on pretty flimsy evidence, but Catholicism is the same way from one who stands outside both traditions. Wouldn’t you have to admit that if you had been raised in a different part of the world, you would have a different religion and be saying the same things about it?

Best,
Leela

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**The fallen off Catholic “Sair” wrote:
“The thing that struck me most forcibly was, how many controls exist in the Catholic faith against questioning.”

There’s absolutely nothing to it. It’s a mere lie!

Those and others are defamatory statements, without any funded background, except hate against what- or whomever they feel hurt by. Typical to a weak person who never thinks twice if it not might be himself who is wrong.

As stated before, the teaching office of the Church, founded by Jesus Christ, has been established to answer questions. To the church all questions are welcome, if asked in thirst for deeper knowledge of God. Not though, if asked in cynicism.

Still, even scoffers the church welcomes any time, as Jesus told us in Lk 15,7 or Mt 18,13
Reading so many verses that all consist of one thing only – love, believe in God grows every time we hear the word of God.

Why would anyone rebuff love?!

**

 

[twb1621]

Don’t you think any Muslim would say the same about Islam? That if you studied it deeply enough, you could not help but see the truth of it? What is striking to me is that every religion says that every other religion is false, and it is obvious to any Catholic that Islam (or whatever religion you want to insert) has been set up to be immune from honest inquiry and is based on pretty flimsy evidence, but Catholicism is the same way from one who stands outside both traditions. Wouldn’t you have to admit that if you had been raised in a different part of the world, you would have a different religion and be saying the same things about it?

Best,
Leela

The difference is in cases like mine at least; I didn’t take anyone’s word for anything if you remember what I posted earlier. Actually Many Muslims are converting to Christianity with the conversion rate growing with time but that is another subject. Many here converted from another faith. Perhaps I am not the typical faithful “cradle Catholic”, that is true, but I am not proud of that either. I was born into a Catholic Family, yes, however, I also went through a conversion. For what I now know I wish I could say I never doubted the faith my parents tried to teach me but I did. My knowledge of my faith and my relationship with our Lord is based on all that I learned on my own from seeking the truth and what was later revealed to me through my relationship with our Christ, not from society or family heritage or anything else. I can only smile when I hear the questions raised such as you have because you think I am from a cookie cutter mold. To my misfortune I have seen more that is ungodly than most care to experience. Fortunately, I also have seen the Godliness as well.

 

[Leela]

The difference is in cases like mine at least; I didn’t take anyone’s word for anything if you remember what I posted earlier. Actually Many Muslims are converting to Christianity with the conversion rate growing with time but that is another subject. Many here converted from another faith. Perhaps I am not the typical faithful “cradle Catholic”, that is true, but I am not proud of that either. I was born into a Catholic Family, yes, however, I also went through a conversion. For what I now know I wish I could say I never doubted the faith my parents tried to teach me but I did. My knowledge of my faith and my relationship with our Lord is based on all that I learned on my own from seeking the truth and what was later revealed to me through my relationship with our Christ, not from society or family heritage or anything else. I can only smile when I hear the questions raised such as you have because you think I am from a cookie cutter mold. To my misfortune I have seen more that is ungodly than most care to experience. Fortunately, I also have seen the Godliness as well.

I understand that you are not a cradle Catholic in a way, but all the questions I asked remain:

Don’t you think any Muslim would say the same about Islam? That if you studied it deeply enough, you could not help but see the truth of it?

Is Catholicism any less immune from honest inquiry than Islam is? The support for Isalm is the Koran and the Islamic tradition just as the support for Christianity is the Bible and the Catholic tradition. All answers are based on the assumption that the Bible is true. If you don’t already believe that, how would anyone come to that conclusion while comparing the Bible to other religion’s sacred texts?

Wouldn’t you have to admit that if you had been raised in a different part of the world, you would have a different religion and be saying the same things about it?

 

[Leela]

**The fallen off Catholic “Sair” wrote:
“The thing that struck me most forcibly was, how many controls exist in the Catholic faith against questioning.”

There’s absolutely nothing to it. It’s a mere lie!
**

Question all you want. The answer is always the same for every religion: have faith. I just can’t imagine on what grounds I could accept the truth of the Bible and reject the truth of the sacred scriptures of other religious traditions.

 

[wina]

Wouldn’t you have to admit that if you had been raised in a different part of the world, you would have a different religion and be saying the same things about it?

I know that the question is not for me, but if you allow me to answer then I will answer with God’s grace, I believe that I will still choose catholic as my religion. Although I’m cradle catholic but you can be sure that I didn’t know anything about my faith until about 1 year ago and even now I’m still learning but the more I learn the more I’m proud of being catholic and I don’t like to judge other religion either.Let all in God’s hand. Just do my best to my life for God and others and let the rest in God’s hand because we as human are not perfect.

 

[LilyM]

There are lots of areas in non-spiritual realms that require us to ‘have faith’ as well.

If I asked you to prove that your husband or wife truly and disinterestedly loved you, every ‘proof’ you could put forward could be rationalised away as being caused by something other than your spouse’s love for you. They might be cynically manipulating you, mad and deluded, interested only in what they can get out of the relationship for themselves (be it sex, money, stability, someone to do their laundry and take out their trash for them or whatever).

To presume that someone is in love with you is indeed a big act of faith. And many people who do so presume find out very painfully just how wrong they are. It’s sadly easy to demonstrate that someone is NOT in love with you, much more so than to positively prove that they really ARE.

On another point, in one of your previous posts you said something about us theists ‘needing to believe’ or some such. Trust me, I get nothing out of believing - especially not believing in the tenets of Catholicsm. I DON’T get an assurance of salvation, unlike some of my fellow Christian.

I DON’T get all my prayers answered in the way I want, I DON’T always get a ‘feeling’ of reassurance or being loved when I want it.

Life would in fact be much easier in a lot of ways if I shed myself of this belief that God exists. Unfortunately, I can no more shed myself of this belief than I can shed myself of my belief that I exist - and Descartes showed how difficult THAT is!

I can’t help going back to Ockham’s razor - with a system as vast and complex as the universe, let alone all the individual plants, animals, minerals, elements and combinations thereof within it, and their relationship with each other, it makes more sense that a vast intelligence created it than that it generated without design. Yes, I know that you might find such an explanation unsatisfying, but I doubt I would get a better answer if I asked you how you know your parents/friends/spouse loves you. Most lovers come up with a variant of ‘I know because I know’, which is all the best of us can do in the face of the mystery that is love

 

[geometer]

bump

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

I DON’T get all my prayers answered in the way I want, I DON’T always get a ‘feeling’ of reassurance or being loved when I want it.

Of course not, and this is very good so! It helps us a lot.
Remember: Very often children ask their dad things, that would be bad for them, and dad says a firm NO - to save his child! A dog askes for the poisoned bit, we don’t let him have it, for we love that animal.

When we pray, we always add:
YOUR WILL BE DONE
for our will is not overlooking it’s consequences.
God only knows what’s good for us in the end.

Take Hiob (I think it’s Job in English?) who suffered so much, but in the end it all turned out for Job’s best.

The book Hiob is one of the greatest literal works on earth. We ought to read in it. It helps a lot when we are about to despair.

It’s senseless to argue (as someone did in another forum) if this man “Job” lived or not, for same thing happened to so many. Here we see and learn ever such a lot. It really helps a lot in our everyday life! and it stops us asking useless and silly questions like the question “WHY” when dreadful things happen.

I remembered that when my son died. And it helped my wife and me a lot.

Even not getting always a ‘feeling’ of reassurance of being loved. For if we had that, (Hiob didn’t either even though he was loved) then we’d be too sure of ourselves and strong believe wouldn’t be so necessary any more.
**

 

[twb1621]

I understand that you are not a cradle Catholic in a way, but all the questions I asked remain:

Don’t you think any Muslim would say the same about Islam? That if you studied it deeply enough, you could not help but see the truth of it?

Is Catholicism any less immune from honest inquiry than Islam is? The support for Isalm is the Koran and the Islamic tradition just as the support for Christianity is the Bible and the Catholic tradition. All answers are based on the assumption that the Bible is true. If you don’t already believe that, how would anyone come to that conclusion while comparing the Bible to other religion’s sacred texts?

Wouldn’t you have to admit that if you had been raised in a different part of the world, you would have a different religion and be saying the same things about it?

Actually no, but one has to get to the point they believe in God before they can go further. Besides, Islam under Mohammed did not come about until 500 years after Christ and certainly did not have the supporting History that exists with the life and prophecy of Christ in the Hebrew. The life of Mohammed in no way is supported as the Life of the Messiah is in the Old Testament. Regardless, my suggestion in the case of your question would be to research the history of Islam and it will provide its own credibility or lack of as the case might be.

As far as belief in the books of the Bible, many scholars and specialists in many fields have provided their finding in regard to the texts of scripture and the books of the Bible and their origins. They have much more credible reasoning behind them attesting to the authenticity to the life of Christ than you could ever produce to discredit His life and I say that in all sincerity.

No, not if I had the same necessity to know the truth as I have in this life of mine. Catholicism is all over the world one sixth of the world population and knowing what I have learned over the last six years, I am most happy about the fact I have the relationship with Him that I have now. What I’d be doing or whatever if I was raised somewhere else is a question that is insignificant because it comes down to His will and my acceptance of Him, not where I am geographically.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**you too dear Leela, as all who refuse God, really do have a “strong help in your disbelieve”. Find out for yourselve who or what this “help” is, written as all aids for life, in the bible. Here; in 2 Thessalonians 2,7-12:

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. But the one who restrains is to do so only for the present, until he is removed from the scene.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord (Jesus) will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming,the one whose coming springs from the power of Satan in every mighty deed and in signs and wonders that lie,
and in every wicked deceit for those who are perishing because they have not accepted the love of truth so that they may be saved.

Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie, that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned.**

 

[Leela]

**you too dear Leela, as all who refuse God, really do have a “strong help in your disbelieve”. Find out for yourselve who or what this “help” is, written as all aids for life, in the bible. Here; in 2 Thessalonians 2,7-12:

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. But the one who restrains is to do so only for the present, until he is removed from the scene.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord (Jesus) will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming,the one whose coming springs from the power of Satan in every mighty deed and in signs and wonders that lie,
and in every wicked deceit for those who are perishing because they have not accepted the love of truth so that they may be saved.

Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie, that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned.**

You keep citing Bible verses to support the truth of the Bible, but that is exactly what is in question in this thread “Why we believe.”

But the Bible does tell us how we may know that it is true based on signs performed by believers. Jesus said that believers like you should be able to…

heal the sick
handle snakes
drink poisons
drive out demons
speak in tongues

Do you have these special powers? If so, you could probably convince me of the truth of the Bible.

Mark 16:9-20
9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.
12Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.

14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

If so, you could probably convince me of the truth of the Bible.

**Luke 16,31:
‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’

But you’re right; question was WHY DO WE BELIEVE.
Answers to this question had been given a lot.
What use is all this answering, when all is refused?!
**

 

[Leela]

**Luke 16,31:
‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’

But you’re right; question was WHY DO WE BELIEVE.
Answers to this question had been given a lot.
What use is all this answering, when all is refused?!
**

Can I infer from your answer that you can’t heal the sick, handle snakes, drink poisons, drive out demons, and speak in tongues? Based on the quote below, that means you are not saved.

Mark 16:15-18 (NRSV)

And he said to them, ‘Go into all the world and proclaim the good news to the whole creation. The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes in their hands, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.’