Why We Fight

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Matt25:
Where has the Church said in so many words that Just War is a positive good?

Do you agree with the Holy Father that War is always a defeat for humanity?

If so how can a defeat constitute a good?

If not why not?
I can’t speak for the Holy Father, but I know in the Catechism based upon Magistarium teachine, it says a war can be just. Something that is just is good. So a war can be good, even though in every war there are elements of evil. We are human and they creep in. But you can have a just war. By saying that then the Church is saying you can have a war, that in a general sense, is good.

There is no such thing as a just evil.
 
In A Just War in a Time of Terrorism: A Franciscan Perspective, David B. Couturier, OFM. Cap (fi-na.org/page1.html)
considers the Just War criteria.

On the criteria that one wages war in order to establish peace he says this~ War must be waged with peace as the end in mind. War is not a moral good; it is, at best, a necessary evil.

Obviously it is just his opinion but surely peace and war cannot both be moral goods can they?

Parenthetically he also says~ As I stated earlier, the principles used to justify going to war are integral. If any of these requirements are missing or not in evidence, then the war is not considered just. Also, if there is evidence to the contrary that indicates that one of these principles is not fulfilled, then the war is not considered just. So, if it can be proven that the motivation for war is not peace but expansion or access to resources, (ie. more water or more oil), then the war cannot be claimed as just.

There is also an interesting consideration of the question @ sspx.org/against_the_sound_bites/just_war.htm

“War is still a physical evil, with suffering and loss, and, at the same time, the cause of moral evils which will perhaps accidentally follow —souls will be called before the judgment seat of God without being prepared, or called in the drunkenness of massacre, or in the hatred for the enemy. As such, war is a consequence of original sin, a feature of our present fallen state.”

" Nevertheless, even for the Christian there exists the danger of exalting war as such, as it is willed and carried on by men. War as such is always a disaster and a crime, at least materially and at least on one of the belligerent sides."

"
Finally, there is the objection which is foremost in most minds: the indisputable horror and cruelty of war. How is it possible to ensure that the disorder and suffering caused by the war will not fly out of control and thereby lose all proportion to the original offense? War will always entail the incalculable loss of human lives, moral and material disasters —and these upon people who, for the most part, do not have direct responsibility for the infliction of the original injury. How firm is the hope that, following such suffering, justice, order, and peace will be restored? This danger, which has been present as long as men have been on earth, has increased exponentially by scientific and technological developments in military hardware. Add to this that the solidarity among nations today almost invariably extends military conflicts to several nations, and one sees that evil consequences may indirectly affect generations to come.

Many modern theologians consider that today there is no morally admissible hypothesis by which a state could resort to war. John XXIII accepted this position in his encyclical Pacem in Terris: *“In this age which boasts of its atomic power, it no longer makes sense to maintain that war is a fit instrument with which to repair the violation of justice.”
*

The theory that the outcome of war can be a moral good does not necessarily mean that the war itself is a moral good. Not least because the course and outcome of the war cannot be foretold with certainty by any of the persons involved in it.
 
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Matt25:
The theory that the outcome of war can be a moral good does not necessarily mean that the war itself is a moral good. Not least because the course and outcome of the war cannot be foretold with certainty by any of the persons involved in it.
We are not talking outcomes when we talk Just War theory. A just war is a moral good in and of itself. It does not depend upon an outcome. Your off base here.
 
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Matt25:
The theory that the outcome of war can be a moral good does not necessarily mean that the war itself is a moral good. Not least because the course and outcome of the war cannot be foretold with certainty by any of the persons involved in it.
We are not talking outcomes when we talk Just War theory. A just war is a moral good in and of itself. It does not depend upon an outcome. Your off base here.

Outcomes often have to do with talent. Germany was evil but won a lot of battles in WWII because they had better equipment and better generals, not because they were morally good.
 
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gilliam:
A just war is a moral good in and of itself. It does not depend upon an outcome. .
War can never be a moral good as such. It is not Gods will that his children kill each other. At its best Just War doctrine is permissive in the same way that “an eye for an eye” was permissive. In a sinful world as a result of sin wars will occur. Just War limits the damage done but it is the least worst option not a preferential option.

It is like divorce under the Mosaic dispensation "7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?” 8 He said to them, “It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.” Matt 19

BTW outcome is not just final result. I was really thinking of collateral damage during the course of a war. And the fact that since we are all sinners some solidiers will inevitably commit unjust acts against “the enemy” in every war. And of course the whole notion of “enemy” in war is not love and pray for as we are commanded to.

incommunion.org/articles/essays/peace-in-the-fathers
  • In his 14th Homily on Philippians, Chrysostom states:* God is not a God of war and fighting. Make war and fighting to cease, both that which is against Him, and that which is against thy neighbour. Be at peace with all men, consider with what character God saveth them. ‘Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.’ Such always imitate the Son of God: do thou imitate Him too. Be at peace. The more thy brother warreth against thee, by so much the greater will be thy reward. For hear the prophet who saith, ‘With the haters of peace, I was peaceful’ (Psalm 120, 7, Septuagint). This is virtue, this is above understanding, this maketh us near God; nothing so much delighteth God as to remember no evil. This sets thee free from thy sins, this looseth the charges against thee: but if we are fighting and buffeting, we become far off from God: for enmities are produced by conflict, and from enmity springs remembrance of evil
 
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Matt25:
War can never be a moral good as such. It is not Gods will that his children kill each other. At its best Just War doctrine is permissive in the same way that “an eye for an eye” was permissive. In a sinful world as a result of sin wars will occur. Just War limits the damage done but it is the least worst option not a preferential option.
You are forgetting your obligation to defend the innocent. If the only way you can defend them is by war, than the war is a good. That is way it is called just. It really is not that complicated. You are trying to make it more complicated because you are trying to say something the Church does not teach.

You can cut and paste stuff as much as you want, but it doesn’t take away what the Church teaches in the Catechism. I could have quoted a lot of items where Popes actually started wars, but I didn’t because, like what you are quoting they are irrelavent.

Anyway, we are going around in circles on this. I think I am done with this discussion. If you want to argue more, maybe someone else can argue with you on this.
 
Was dropping nuclear devices on Hiroshima and Nagasaki Just?

Did it protect the innocent?

Was it a moral good?

abc.net.au/rn/relig/enc/stories/s996588.htm

**David Rutledge: **There was commentator in the journal First Things, who said that when Christian go off to fight a just war, they’re following Christ, but at a distance. And I wonder if, in your pacifism, you’re talking about something much more immediate, you’re talking about pacifism as the road to Calvary, if it has to be that way, as following Christ in such a way as to be led unresisting to a horrible death, if that’s what your Christianity calls you to do? Is that the kind of end that you have in mind?

**Stanley Hauerwas: **It certainly could be. I mean, what is the deep problem? The deep problem of Christian non-violence is: you must be willing to watch innocent people suffer for your convictions. Of course, that’s true. In the hard cases, it means it’s not just your death, it’s watching other people die, whom you might have been able to defend. Now of course, you want to try to do everything you can that would prevent that alternative. But you may have to envision that.

But look: the just warriors are in exactly the same position. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, on just war grounds, were murder. There’s no other description for that. Just warriors need to argue that it would have been better for more people to die on the beaches of Japan, both Americans and Japanese, than to commit one murder. That’s what the position should be committed to holding. So of course, any account of serious attempt to morally control war, would mean that if you’re a just warrior, you’re going to have to watch the innocent suffer for your convictions – just like the pacifist does. But on the whole, most people who argue on just war grounds don’t want to acknowledge that. But they should.
 
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Matt25:
Was dropping nuclear devices on Hiroshima and Nagasaki Just?
Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.
- Catholic Catechism


There are injustices in all wars. That is why we try to avoid them. But that does not mean that some wars are not just. If there is no other choice, there may actually be a duty to enter in upon war.

2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.

- Catholic Catechism

See, this is why I say we are going around in circles.
 
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Matt25:
**David Rutledge: **

**Stanley Hauerwas: **
QUOTE]

Now your quoting non-catholic theologians to back you up? Better to just talk to me instead of cutting and pasting from anti-war sights isn’t it?
 
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gilliam:
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Matt25:
**David Rutledge: **
**Stanley Hauerwas: **
QUOTE]

Now your quoting non-catholic theologians to back you up? Better to just talk to me instead of cutting and pasting from anti-war sights isn’t it?
Well I did ask you to comment about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Were they just? Were they moral goods?

Its a shame you are unwilling to answer.
 
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Matt25:
Well I did ask you to comment about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Were they just? Were they moral goods?

Its a shame you are unwilling to answer.
I thought I did by inference.

I don’t think they were moral goods. As I pointed out though, they were not wars but incidents in war. I also am not in favor of carpet bombing cities like we did in WWII. Now that we have the technology to avoid doing such things. I was not alive during WWII and don’t know all the ins and outs of that war. Maybe Hiroshima and Nagasaki could have been avoided, I would hope and pray so. I do know a lot of WWII vets who swear that had we not bombed those cities MILLIONS more would have died. That would not have been a good thing. But with the little knowledge that I have, if I had to make the decision, I would not have targeted cities.
 
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gilliam:
Maybe Hiroshima and Nagasaki could have been avoided, I would hope and pray so. I do know a lot of WWII vets who swear that had we not bombed those cities MILLIONS more would have died. That would not have been a good thing
I understand the arguments behind detonating nuclear weapons against people. I have never though heard a clear explanation as to why two such bombs were necessary. I fear that the death of thousands of Japanese people was less important than the desire of some to experiment with their shiny new weapons.

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gilliam:
But with the little knowledge that I have, if I had to make the decision, I would not have targeted cities.
There you align yourself with the view of the Church
shc.edu/theolibrary/resources/handbook_warpeace.htm
“Any act of war aimed indiscriminately at the destruction of entire cities or extensive areas along with their population is a crime against God and man himself. It merits unequivocal and unhesitating condemnation.” Vatican II, Church in the Modern World (1965) 80.
“Not even by the broadest definition can one rationally consider combatants entire classes of human beings such as school children, hospital patients, the elderly, the ill, the average industrial worker producing goods not directly related to military purposes, farmers and many others. They may never be directly attacked.” U.S. Bishops, The Challenge of Peace (1983) 108.
“Under no circumstances may nuclear weapons or other instruments of mass slaughter be used for the purpose of destroying population centers or other predominantly civilian targets.” U.S. Bishops, The Challenge of Peace (1983) 147.
 
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