Why we need a TLM in every parish!

[PrayforMallory]

1.) The EF is not enriched by the OF. Perhaps the reserve is true, but your comment is not.

2.) Many parishes are close to one another. If someone has to travel a bit for their beloved EF, then that should be a small sacrifice.

3.) LOL!! Never happen.
**
Why we don’t need a TLM in every parish?**

1.) Insufficient demand.

2.) Insufficient resources.

3.)The negative community it often attracts.

You know, there seem to be a growing number of Cardinals that disagree with you…

Supply/Demand only matters at Wal-Mart. The Church isn’t a department store.

As for the negative community, what do you mean? I mean, what’s negative about them? Are they producing too many heterdox activitists? If I polled them would the majority of them support womens’ ordination? Are they acting too casual at Mass? Maybe they don’t know enough about the Church, etc.?

You’re gonna have to be more specific there.

 

[hasikelee]

1. So that it enriches the OF.
2. So that everyone has the opportunity to enjoy the Mass in Latin.
3. So that these debates end once and for all.

Why we don’t need a TLM in every parish.

???

I’ll be happy to have more parishes offer TLM in our area. Currently, the only one is more than an hour away in a bad part of town.

But, is it really practical to have a TLM in every single parish? Keep in mind I am thinking about my surrounding area…I have at least 5 churches to choose from within 1-5 miles, and that triples within 10-20 miles.

Furthermore, many of these parishes have altars, and in some cases entire churches, that will not suffice for a TLM. To prepare them for a TLM, the church would have to do a major renovation project, something many of these cash-strapped parishes cannot do for even necessary repairs.

 

[ethelzguy]

“Convenient?” Some of those people you are talking about only speak Spanish. I know of no one who speaks Latin as their primary language.

I was referring to those who constantly tell us english-speakin folks that “Latin is no big deal, just get a split-column missal”

 

[ethelzguy]

This discussion is so off-topic,.

What did you guys wanna do? Derail it by bringing up Mexican communities and Spanish Masses? Who said he wanted those to not be available?

Suddenly…The EF debate has become one about English supremacy…

No, not at all. I am simply pointing out that many parishes aren’t “local vernacular only”. Many are already bilingual. So, it’s not an issue of supremacy, it’s an issue of practicality.

I’m trying to meet the Latin crowd halfway here. As they say, Latin is the “universal language” of the Church. So, I have proffered a win-win.

The NO/OF folks get to keep their vernacular Mass. The TLM folks get their Mass, the world traveller gets Mass either in the local vernacular or the universal language.

If I visited or moved to Mexico, I expect to have to deal with speaking in Spanish. If I go to France, I’d better bring my little translation book. If I go to Germany…well, you get the picture.

If I go to Italy, I wouldn’t expect the Church there to provide me with an English-language Mass.

Nothing bigoted or supremacist about it. But perhaps not American-style politically correct either.

 

[Spiller]

No, not at all. I am simply pointing out that many parishes aren’t “local vernacular only”. Many are already bilingual. So, it’s not an issue of supremacy, it’s an issue of practicality.

I’m trying to meet the Latin crowd halfway here. As they say, Latin is the “universal language” of the Church. So, I have proffered a win-win.

The NO/OF folks get to keep their vernacular Mass. The TLM folks get their Mass, the world traveller gets Mass either in the local vernacular or the universal language.

If I visited or moved to Mexico, I expect to have to deal with speaking in Spanish. If I go to France, I’d better bring my little translation book. If I go to Germany…well, you get the picture.

If I go to Italy, I wouldn’t expect the Church there to provide me with an English-language Mass.

Nothing bigoted or supremacist about it. But perhaps not American-style politically correct either.

The local vernacular here IS English and Spanish! MANY parts of the world have the Mass in English. More in English than in Latin worldwide is my guess.

Your notion is not “win-win” for native speakers of Spanish!

 

[Spiller]

You know, there seem to be a growing number of Cardinals that disagree with you…

Worldwide attendance at the EF is minuscule compared to attendance at the OF.

Supply/Demand only matters at Wal-Mart. The Church isn’t a department store.

Actually it matters in the Church too. Limited resources will be used as best they can to meet the needs of the faithful.

As for the negative community, what do you mean? I mean, what’s negative about them? Are they producing too many heterdox activitists? If I polled them would the majority of them support womens’ ordination? Are they acting too casual at Mass? Maybe they don’t know enough about the Church, etc.?

I can give you an example. I attend a Latin Rite parish. It is my spiritual home. I also attend an Eastern Catholic parish. At our coffee social at my Eastern parish someone said “Spiller, I can’t attend there because of the Protestant Mass.” I wanted to debate but it hit me – a very ignorant (but not dumb) person who was venting by spewing negativity. No debate would help him. It’s THAT sort of thing I come across in “traditionalist” circles.

You’re gonna have to be more specific there.

 

[SJP]

In my local NO Parish there is currently a major battle between those who want the Mass to be celebrated in English and those who want the Mass to be celebrated in French. It’s a terrible situation and it’s dividing the Parish.

Just one more reason for the Roman Rite to use one language in all places. The official language of the Church…Latin:thumbsup:

 

[PrayforMallory]

Worldwide attendance at the EF is minuscule compared to attendance at the OF.

Actually it matters in the Church too. Limited resources will be used as best they can to meet the needs of the faithful.

I can give you an example. I attend a Latin Rite parish. It is my spiritual home. I also attend an Eastern Catholic parish. At our coffee social at my Eastern parish someone said “Spiller, I can’t attend there because of the Protestant Mass.” I wanted to debate but it hit me – a very ignorant (but not dumb) person who was venting by spewing negativity. No debate would help him. It’s THAT sort of thing I come across in “traditionalist” circles.

I’m not seeing it as “miniscule.” I’m seeing something small that is growing exponentially. It has potential to be utterly huge.

As for limited resources, well, I’m sure that plenty of Latin Mass folks would support the Churches who decided on that. Besides, somehow the Traditional Parishes don’t have a problem pulling it off.

I’ve always wanted to go to an Eastern Rite Mass. Seems pretty cool.

They way to soften that guy’s heart? Bring a TLM to the area!

 

[ethelzguy]

The local vernacular here IS English and Spanish! MANY parts of the world have the Mass in English. More in English than in Latin worldwide is my guess.

Your notion is not “win-win” for native speakers of Spanish!

Ah, but I live in the good ol’ U.S. of A. Where “we speeka da ing”. (Not politically correct, but the way my Grandma said it).

If I moved to Campeche`, I would expect to attend Mass in Spanish. If I moved to Quebec, I would expect to attend Mass in French. If I moved to Germany…

And for our Spanish immigrants, we would have the opportunity to learn English, or the Universal Language of the Church.

Having read literally thousands of posts here at CAF, I find it mildly irritating that after the MP, many Latin lovers were dancing in the streets, proclaiming that the TLM was back and would take over the Church in a decade or so.

When NO/OF folks expressed misgivings about the possibility of having to learn/relearn Latin, they were told to “get away Satan and take your cafeteria Catholicism with you”, or more recently I was told that I was just plain LAZY.

So, if I live in an English speaking country, and don’t particularly want to relearn the Latin Mass, I get called names. But if I suggest that we do away with Spanish-speaking Masses in an English-speaking country to free up Mass space for the TLM, I get called a reprehensible bigot.

and the beat goes on…

 

[Saint_Gemma]

Not all Priests know how to celebrate the Tridentine Mass. Not all Priests know or understand Latin. A lot of Priests would need to be trained and taught how to celebrate the Mass.

Not every Church is suitable for the celebration of the Tridentine Mass. Many modern Churches do not have a suitable altar, not to mention the need for altar rails.

Many Catholics have no interest in the Tridentine Mass. Many are more than happy with the OF and would not attend the EF even if they had the chance.

However, I do think the Tridentine Mass should be celebrated in more parishes around the world. I also think we should expose our children to this Mass when they are young so that they can experience some of the riches of traditional roman spirituality.

Education is the first step that must be taken. We must ensure that all Catholics understand the uniqueness and historical importance of the Tridentine Mass. Only then will we see an increase in the amount of people who want to attend the Tridentine Mass.

In a few years, all new priests should know how to celebrate the Extraordinary of the Roman Rite.
In a few decades, all priests who attended seminaries that are obedient to the pope will know how to celebrate the EF. Problem solved!

 

[ethelzguy]

In my local NO Parish there is currently a major battle between those who want the Mass to be celebrated in English and those who want the Mass to be celebrated in French. It’s a terrible situation and it’s dividing the Parish.

Just one more reason for the Roman Rite to use one language in all places. The official language of the Church…Latin:thumbsup:

Are you in Quebec, by any chance?

 

[SJP]

Are you in Quebec, by any chance?

Ontario

 

[PrayforMallory]

Having read literally thousands of posts here at CAF, I find it mildly irritating that after the MP, many Latin lovers were dancing in the streets, proclaiming that the TLM was back and would take over the Church in a decade or so.

When NO/OF folks expressed misgivings about the possibility of having to learn/relearn Latin, they were told to “get away Satan and take your cafeteria Catholicism with you”, or more recently I was told that I was just plain LAZY.

So, if I live in an English speaking country, and don’t particularly want to relearn the Latin Mass, I get called names. But if I suggest that we do away with Spanish-speaking Masses in an English-speaking country to free up Mass space for the TLM, I get called a reprehensible bigot.

and the beat goes on…

Well, I guess internet junkies kinda forget that the Holy Father and the Curia don’t get their theology from this forum.

Everyone’s a jerk online. Just get on youtube and look at comments. Savage.

There are ways to get introduced to the Latin Mass without bustin out Wheelock’s Latin. I mean, I’m a grad student in Medieval history, so Latin is pretty much mandated, but, you know, anyone can learn the Latin used in the Mass.

Besides, aren’t you a chemist or something in the science area? I think I read that. Your posts are intelligent. I think you could learn the Latin of the Mass easily. We just don’t have the lay guides yet.

I was able to learn the periodic table, even though it was hard for me and I can barely add and subtract. Surely people can learn “Dominus Vobiscum” and “Et Cum Spiritu Tuo” and go from there? It’s not a requirement for anyone, but you know, it’s really cool, at least to me.

 

[Saint_Gemma]

Today I talked to the pastor of my local parish about having the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite regularly. He said that he would allow it if there are enough people interested. He is going to publish a notice in the bulletin asking anyone who wants to regularly attend the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite (traditional Latin Mass) to phone me, so that I can make a list of the people who are interested.

If you want the EF at your local parish, ask for it!

 

[consumedconvert]

1. So that it enriches the OF.
2. So that everyone has the opportunity to enjoy the Mass in Latin.
3. So that these debates end once and for all.

Why we don’t need a TLM in every parish.

???

I favor the idea of a TLM in every city, two or three for large cities. Rural areas, one per area (those people are used to driving a while to get to anywhere anyway!).

There are five parishes within fifteen or twenty minutes of my house. I would be very happy if one should choose to host TLM. If all five did, however, I think it could actually do those who prefer TLM a disservice, because it would split the resources. There are only so many people who have trained or would like to train as TLM Altar servers. Also, I would rather have the option of attending one TLM that was well attended (and well-staffed with servers and priests) than having the option to attend five TLMs that not many people came to.

Perhaps people who want the TLM can pool their resources across local parishes and invite local priests to be celebrants. This kind of community sharing would, I think, make local celebration of TLM all that more feasable.

 

[PrayforMallory]

I favor the idea of a TLM in every city, two or three for large cities. Rural areas, one per area (those people are used to driving a while to get to anywhere anyway!).

There are five parishes within fifteen or twenty minutes of my house. I would be very happy if one should choose to host TLM. If all five did, however, I think it could actually do those who prefer TLM a disservice, because it would split the resources. There are only so many people who have trained or would like to train as TLM Altar servers. Also, I would rather have the option of attending one TLM that was well attended (and well-staffed with servers and priests) than having the option to attend five TLMs that not many people came to.

Perhaps people who want the TLM can pool their resources across local parishes and invite local priests to be celebrants. This kind of community sharing would, I think, make local celebration of TLM all that more feasable.

This post has a lot of common sense and practical wisdom attached to it.

The zeal for it is due to the fact that not everyone has access to it yet, as we’ve seen. I’m from the Deep South (not many Catholics there anyway) and I know a lot of folks that want access, but just can’t get it.

Fortunately I live in the Archdiocese of St. Louis now, and it’s a pleasure.

 

[EasterJoy]

I favor the idea of a TLM in every city, two or three for large cities. Rural areas, one per area (those people are used to driving a while to get to anywhere anyway!).

There are five parishes within fifteen or twenty minutes of my house. I would be very happy if one should choose to host TLM. If all five did, however, I think it could actually do those who prefer TLM a disservice, because it would split the resources. There are only so many people who have trained or would like to train as TLM Altar servers. Also, I would rather have the option of attending one TLM that was well attended (and well-staffed with servers and priests) than having the option to attend five TLMs that not many people came to.

Perhaps people who want the TLM can pool their resources across local parishes and invite local priests to be celebrants. This kind of community sharing would, I think, make local celebration of TLM all that more feasable.

I agree with this. It is also not unusual for a city to have a few older churches which are much more appropriate settings for a TLM. Better to have one well-attended TLM in a great setting than a lot of poorly-attended ones in less-ideal settings. This would also give every TLM the priests most prepared to offer the Mass well, too.

Since so many priests are already saying so many Masses on a given Sunday, this might be the only solution from a human resources standpoint, too. If the priests are over-extended, they won’t do the Masses they offer the justice the Mass deserves.

 

[LilyM]

If thet Church had stuck to its original intent and left Latin as the rule, it wouldn’t matter who attended what Mass.

Latin was a unifying force that allowed people of all backgrounds to celebrate together. They may not be able to converse after Mass well, but they could celebrate with one another.

If we had a single language for these Masses, as we did for many many centuries, there would be no need for Spanish masses, English masses, etc.

Talk to our good friend brotherholf here - he could tell you about the good old days when, in spite of all having Latin masses, there were still ‘Italian’, ‘Irish’, or ‘German’ or what have you Catholic parishes - sometimes the churches were ACROSS THE ROAD from each other - and the twain didn’t often meet.

See a parish isn’t just about the Mass - the Italians will want to have their St Joseph’s day celebrations for example - mostly in Italian of course, the Irish will celebrate St Patrick’s Day and so on. There’s loads of Catholic cultural overlay in different countries that does NOT translate across nationalities.

 

[Joannm]

Latin was a unifying force that allowed people of all backgrounds to celebrate together. They may not be able to converse after Mass well, but they could celebrate with one another.

.

Actually where I grew up, during the Latin Mass period, each ethnic group had its own parish and people didn’t really celebrate mass in parishes with other backgrounds. It wasn’t until the demographics started changing in the mid-60’s that people of different backgrounds came together in parishes in my area. By then the Mass was in English.

 

[Saint_Gemma]

Worldwide attendance at the EF is minuscule compared to attendance at the OF.

Actually it matters in the Church too. Limited resources will be used as best they can to meet the needs of the faithful.

I can give you an example. I attend a Latin Rite parish. It is my spiritual home. I also attend an Eastern Catholic parish. At our coffee social at my Eastern parish someone said “Spiller, I can’t attend there because of the Protestant Mass.” I wanted to debate but it hit me – a very ignorant (but not dumb) person who was venting by spewing negativity. No debate would help him. It’s THAT sort of thing I come across in “traditionalist” circles.

And before the Novus Ordo Missae became the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, no one attended it!

Even if the pope was the only person who liked a form of the Roman Rite that was not currently the Ordinary Form, he could still promulgate it, and make it the Ordinary Form. Anyone who disobeyed would still be a disobedient Catholic. I am not saying that His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI will make the traditional Mass of the Roman Rite the Ordinary Form of said rite; rather, I am merely saying that even if he was the only person who liked it, which he is not, he could still make it the Ordinary Form.

Even if a Mass had to be popular for the pope to promulgate it, the fact that the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite is not popular now does not mean that it will not be popular in the future. From 1965 to 2007, the traditional Mass of the Roman Rite was effectively banned. You cannot expect for it to become popular again in less than a year after 42 years of suppression.