Why we need to stand up against Anti-Gay sentiment

[PRmerger]

In fact, it is only humored in the wacky and self-refuting world of moral relativism…

Or, borrowing from Peter Kreeft, in the worlds of academia and the lunatic asylum, where all manner of absurd ideas will gain traction.

 

[Rau]

And by “the Church”, what is meant is “the teaching authority of the Church”.

Some folks who are woefully misinformed about Catholicism might think that quoting
“Fr. Obscura From The Mideval Ages” equates to “the Church taught geocentrism”.

I think this slightly misses the point. While I concur that the Church never taught geocentrism, I don’t know what the Bishops and Pope of the day accepted as scientific fact or likelihood. I assert the Church does not teach anything about the capacity of a man who experiences SSA to experience, in the present or subsequently, OSA. But they do choose to accept that the experience of some people is “exclusive SSA”. Is that, objectively, an error? It is certainly not manifest error! Would it have bearing on what is taught? No, it would not.

 

[PRmerger]

I think this slightly misses the point. While I concur that the Church never taught geocentrism,

That’s exactly the point. It refutes the assertion made by someone that the Church did indeed teach geocentrism.

I don’t know what the Bishops and Pope of the day accepted as scientific fact or likelihood

Now this ^^, this does miss the point and is, indeed, irrelevant.

What the individual Bishops and Popes “accepted” personally is otiose.

I assert the Church does not teach anything about the capacity of a man who experiences SSA to experience, in the present or subsequently, OSA. But they do choose to accept that the experience of some people is “exclusive SSA”. Is that, objectively, an error? It is certainly not manifest error! Would it have bearing on what is taught? No, it would not.

 

[Rau]

…What the individual Bishops and Popes “accepted” personally is otiose…

I have followed this thread carefully, and all its predecessors. I’m fairly sure I’ve not missed any point in addressing the issues jjr9 raised over and over. He shifts ground from post to post - one minute claiming something is taught, another that it is merely claimed, though in all cases holding that it is manifestly in error. I’ve explained to him that what he finds unacceptable is first and foremost not taught, and secondly, should the Pope and Bishops in fact accept it, that’s their business and of no relevance to what is taught.

 

[jjr9]

You are making a very elementary error in having great ignorance of what the magisterium is.

You need to offer a document, FROM THE TEACHING AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH, which affirms your claim.

You have not been able to do this.

Best to retract and just say, “Some folks in the Church taught that the earth was the center of creation. But when I said it was the magisterium, I was mistaken”.

Please read up on what constitutes the magisterium of our Catholic Church.

(Here is an example of your error: Edith Stein was a theologian. But she was not a member of the magisterium.

Theologians do not equal the magisterium.)

QED.

You are skeptical that the Magisterium maintained the centrality of the earth, that is not my concern.
Thomas doubted the Resurrection of the Lord.

Why are you not skeptical about the mythical “homosexual person”?

God bless

 

[PRmerger]

You are skeptical that the Magisterium maintained the centrality of the earth, that is not my concern.
Thomas doubted the Resurrection of the Lord.

Why are you not skeptical about the mythical “homosexual person”?

God bless

Yeah. I am skeptical.

And, like Thomas, I want to see proof.

Jesus showed his wounds to Thomas.

Now, still waiting for something from the magisterium that taught geocentrism.

Now, please do some research for what the magisterium is before you respond. And, again, theologians do not equal the magisterium. Remember, St. Teresa of Avila is a doctor of the Church but she is NOT a member of the magisterium.

(Please note folks, the above is ONLY rhetorical. We all already know, as this has been asked of jj multiple times and** he would have provided it had he had it**—feverish search on google to find documentation of this notwitstanding–that THE MAGISTERIUM NEVER, not even once, taught geocentrism)

The Magisterium once asserted the sun circles the earth the Magisterium corrected this false
claim.

 

[jjr9]

Yeah. I am skeptical.

And, like Thomas, I want to see proof.

Jesus showed his wounds to Thomas.

Now, still waiting for something from the magisterium that taught geocentrism.

Now, please do some research for what the magisterium is before you respond. And, again, theologians do not equal the magisterium. Remember, St. Teresa of Avila is a doctor of the Church but she is NOT a member of the magisterium.

(Please note folks, the above is ONLY rhetorical. We all already know, as this has been asked of jj multiple times and** he would have provided it had he had it**—feverish search on google to find documentation of this notwitstanding–that THE MAGISTERIUM NEVER, not even once, taught geocentrism)

Are you skeptical about the mythical “homosexual person”?

God bless

 

[jjr9]

Yeah. I am skeptical.

And, like Thomas, I want to see proof.

Jesus showed his wounds to Thomas.

Now, still waiting for something from the magisterium that taught geocentrism.

Now, please do some research for what the magisterium is before you respond. And, again, theologians do not equal the magisterium. Remember, St. Teresa of Avila is a doctor of the Church but she is NOT a member of the magisterium.

(Please note folks, the above is ONLY rhetorical. We all already know, as this has been asked of jj multiple times and** he would have provided it had he had it**—feverish search on google to find documentation of this notwitstanding–that THE MAGISTERIUM NEVER, not even once, taught geocentrism)

I don’t know why this is so difficult for you I found the minutes from the 1916 trial of Galileo in part
it says:

“the Pope and the whole Congregation of the Holy Office, ordered and enjoined the said Galileo, who
was himself still present, to abandon completely the above-mentioned opinion that the sun stands still
at the center of the world and the earth moves, and henceforth not to hold, teach, or defend it in any
way whatever, either orally or in writing; otherwise the Holy Office would start proceedings against him.
The same Galileo acquiesed in this injunction and promised to obey.”
(ref) tc.umn.edu/~allch001/galileo/library/1616docs.htm#conreport

Are you able to understand that the Pope and the whole Congregation of the Holy Office promoted
the false idea that sun circles the earth?

The minutes further say:

“whose content is that the doctrine attributed to Copernicus (that the earth moves around the sun and
the sun stands at the center of the world without moving from east to west) is contrary to Holy Scripture
and therefore cannot be defended or held”

I hope this help you.

God bless

 

[Thorolfr]

I don’t know why this is so difficult for you I found the minutes from the 1916 trial of Galileo in part
it says:

“the Pope and the whole Congregation of the Holy Office, ordered and enjoined the said Galileo, who
was himself still present, to abandon completely the above-mentioned opinion that the sun stands still
at the center of the world and the earth moves, and henceforth not to hold, teach, or defend it in any
way whatever, either orally or in writing; otherwise the Holy Office would start proceedings against him.
The same Galileo acquiesed in this injunction and promised to obey.”
(ref) tc.umn.edu/~allch001/galileo/library/1616docs.htm#conreport

Are you able to understand that the Pope and the whole Congregation of the Holy Office promoted
the false idea that sun circles the earth?

The minutes further say:

“whose content is that the doctrine attributed to Copernicus (that the earth moves around the sun and
the sun stands at the center of the world without moving from east to west) is contrary to Holy Scripture
and therefore cannot be defended or held”

I hope this help you.

God bless

As a Lutheran, I’m glad to discover that the Catholic Church is not infallible. If the Magisterium has has made mistakes like this one, who knows what other errors it’s made and is still making. Thanks for clarifying this for me jjr9.

 

[PRmerger]

As a Lutheran, I’m glad to discover that the Catholic Church is not infallible. If the Magisterium has has made mistakes like this one, who knows what other errors it’s made and is still making. Thanks for clarifying this for me jjr9.

 

[jjr9]

As a Lutheran, I’m glad to discover that the Catholic Church is not infallible. If the Magisterium has has made mistakes like this one, who knows what other errors it’s made and is still making. Thanks for clarifying this for me jjr9.

To be clear the Magisterium has not made many errors as far as I know and none in terms
of faith and morals. The only outstanding error I am aware of is acceptance of the mythical
“homosexual person” as real and I am confident the Lord will have the Magisterium correct
this error in His Time. In regard to infallibility I know of no errors in what has been declared to
be infallible officially as dogma. I apologize for any confusion.

God bless

 

[andrewstx]

Actually I remember, not too long ago there were a number of pages claiming that the universe was actually geocentric.

 

[PRmerger]

Actually I remember, not too long ago there were a number of pages claiming that the universe was actually geocentric.

Oh, you can find pages and pages of folks claiming that vaccines are toxic, the earth is 6000 years old, the Holocaust never happened, we never landed on the moon.

Not sure what your point is about folks on pages making weird claims?

 

[Lea101]

We can be against homosexual behavior but stand up for them when they are being beaten up, denied jobs, victim of hate crimes, when their families disown them. We can be friends with them (it’s not contagious you know). Plus, homosexuals are more prone to mental illnesses because of the shunning/how abnormal they feel. That’s what I think when I saw the title of this thread, and maybe that’s kind of what the OP means.

I feel as Christians, some of us here tend to assume any of those activities=endorsing homosexuality because we are not constantly reminding everyone that it is wrong. They are still human beings with dignity and they deserve to be treated as such. I don’t understand why this has always cause some sort of controversy amomg the religious. If you expect sinners to come to the church and change, give them a reason to.

As for the marriage thing- you can label it any other way, but it’s still wrong. It’s not a church marriage, but still. I understand they want marriage for legal issues (healthcare etc) so I understand the sympathy, but it’s against our religion so we cannot support it.

 

[jjr9]

Yeah. I am skeptical.

And, like Thomas, I want to see proof.

Jesus showed his wounds to Thomas.

Now, still waiting for something from the magisterium that taught geocentrism.

Now, please do some research for what the magisterium is before you respond. And, again, theologians do not equal the magisterium. Remember, St. Teresa of Avila is a doctor of the Church but she is NOT a member of the magisterium.

(Please note folks, the above is ONLY rhetorical. We all already know, as this has been asked of jj multiple times and** he would have provided it had he had it**—feverish search on google to find documentation of this notwitstanding–that THE MAGISTERIUM NEVER, not even once, taught geocentrism)

I do not understand why you denied the well known truth that at one time the Magisterium
in error claimed the sun circles the earth while at the same time accepting the false claim
from the Magisterium that the mythical “homosexual person” is real with no substantive
reason or harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith.

Will you explain?

I am confident the Lord will have the Magisterium correct this error in His Time.

God bless

 

[Rau]

… the mythical “homosexual person” is real with no substantive
reason or harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith…

When you refer to the mythical “homosexual person”, what do you understand People using that term to mean by it?

 

[jjr9]

We can be against homosexual behavior but stand up for them when they are being beaten up, denied jobs, victim of hate crimes, when their families disown them. We can be friends with them (it’s not contagious you know). Plus, homosexuals are more prone to mental illnesses because of the shunning/how abnormal they feel. That’s what I think when I saw the title of this thread, and maybe that’s kind of what the OP means.

I feel as Christians, some of us here tend to assume any of those activities=endorsing homosexuality because we are not constantly reminding everyone that it is wrong. They are still human beings with dignity and they deserve to be treated as such. I don’t understand why this has always cause some sort of controversy amomg the religious. If you expect sinners to come to the church and change, give them a reason to.

As for the marriage thing- you can label it any other way, but it’s still wrong. It’s not a church marriage, but still. I understand they want marriage for legal issues (healthcare etc) so I understand the sympathy, but it’s against our religion so we cannot support it.

Do you agree with the Magisterium that a group of people experience exclusive SSA?
I do not. I believe it is cruel for the Magisterium to encourage confused people that they
are something that doesn’t exist. I believe SSA is real a temptation. SS behavior is real
a sin and the “homosexual person” a myth.

The CCC 2358 says in regard to the mythical “homosexual person”:
“They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust
discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”

Should not all people be treated this way?

God bless

 

[Rau]

Do you agree … that a group of people experience exclusive SSA?

Have you ever asked a person who identifies as homosexual what they experience? Do you believe they may answer truthfully, or will they lie to you, concealing what they truly experience? I believe most will answer truthfully.

Perhaps you are correct and that persons identifying as homosexual are “confused” (though it’s not clear what that *actually *means when it comes to “what we experience”) . Perhaps it is this very “confusion” (a “psychological genesis”, no less?) which is at the root of their experience? So confused that they fail to recognise (experience) OSA? [After all, it is objectively true that some people find they are not drawn to the opposite sex, isn’t it?]

What then? Would they still not be properly called homosexual, as that term is understood? After all, it’s about what they experience, not why.

“They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”

You might not be aware, but persons identifying as homosexual, sometimes regardless of their behaviour, have been mistreated, viewed as evil people, and been discriminated against in many ways, moreso in the past, but also today. Some people, calling themselves Christians, even believed they were justified in this uncharitable behaviour. It is good that the Church states unequivocally how wrong that is, while simultaneously upholding the moral law. I hope you agree.

 

[jjr9]

Have you ever asked a person who identifies as homosexual what they experience? Do you believe they may answer truthfully, or will they lie to you, concealing what they truly experience? I believe most will answer truthfully.

Perhaps you are correct and that persons identifying as homosexual are “confused” (though it’s not clear what that *actually *means when it comes to “what we experience”) . Perhaps it is this very “confusion” (a “psychological genesis”, no less?) which is at the root of their experience? So confused that they fail to recognise (experience) OSA? [After all, it is objectively true that some people find they are not drawn to the opposite sex, isn’t it?]

What then? Would they still not be properly called homosexual, as that term is understood? After all, it’s about what they experience, not why.

You might not be aware, but persons identifying as homosexual, sometimes regardless of their behaviour, have been mistreated, viewed as evil people, and been discriminated against in many ways, moreso in the past, but also today. Some people, calling themselves Christians, even believed they were justified in this uncharitable behaviour. It is good that the Church states unequivocally how wrong that is, while simultaneously upholding the moral law. I hope you agree.

You can deny the truth that the “homosexual person” is a myth. You can rationalize your position
in many ways emotional argument, false compassion see Bishop Sheen’s good explanation of
false compassion:
Part 1 youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jXQP3UJnagM
Part 2 youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ip7pKqfhWeo
or you can put faith in the Magisterium’s erroneous claim that a group of people experience exclusive
SSA.

You have not and cannot show substantive reason or harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith to
show the “homosexual person” is real.

You say “Perhaps it is this very “confusion” (a “psychological genesis”, no less?) which is at the
root of their experience?”

You and the Magisterium ignore what St Paul told us 2000 years ago as to what the root of their
experience is in Romans 1:28.

28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning
mind to do what is improper.

To be clear I believe that those who wish to self-identify as a “homosexual person” are putting
their will before God’s Will. I will disregard the rationalizations.

God bless

 

[Rau]

You can deny the truth that the “homosexual person” is a myth. You can rationalize your position
in many ways emotional argument, false compassion see Bishop Sheen’s good explanation of
false compassion:
Part 1 youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jXQP3UJnagM
Part 2 youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ip7pKqfhWeo
or you can put faith in the Magisterium’s erroneous claim that a group of people experience exclusive
SSA.

You have not and cannot show substantive reason or harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith to
show the “homosexual person” is real.

You say “Perhaps it is this very “confusion” (a “psychological genesis”, no less?) which is at the
root of their experience?”

You and the Magisterium ignore what St Paul told us 2000 years ago as to what the root of their
experience is in Romans 1:28.

28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning
mind to do what is improper.

To be clear I believe that those who wish to self-identify as a “homosexual person” are putting
their will before God’s Will. I will disregard the rationalizations.

God bless

Is it your understanding that the sacred deposit of faith incorporates an enumeration of all the conditions that may afflict we humans. I don’t believe it does.

I thought you said the persons experiencing SSA were just confused. You seem to be suggesting something else now…

And by the way, here’s a News Flash: Good and faithful Catholics experience SSA. Yet, they acknowledge God and pray to him daily. Pray to stay strong and live well. There are some such persons who post here on CAF. Good people. How can this be jjr9?