Why were we all punished because two people ate an apple?

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Can you provide documentation where Dr. Anders or Fr. Mitch stated that the account never happened?

The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390).
 
jtwp5 said:
No one wants to be told they are evil and bad.
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And yet, the fact remains that our true condition as we are is sinful and evil. Maybe we don’t want to hear that, but the loving thing to do is to acknowledge reality so that this condition can be addressed. I don’t want to hear that I am sinful and that the wages of sin are death, both through the natural consequences that sin has on the physical world, on our society, on our relationships, and through God’s righteous judgment of that sin. However, this same God sent his Son, the Son that created all things, visible and invisible, who entered into his own creation and was incarnate and made man, who died on the cross and atoned for our sin, and who will come again and put back aright all of his creation, has demonstrated true love in addressing the issue that came about through our sin.

We would not go to an oncologist and say that they are unloving for telling us we have Stage 4 Cancer and that we will need to pursue an aggressive treatment of the deadly disease.
 
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There is that word fair again.
First the sin was not just eating an apple. Second, if you have ever sinned you would have done what Adam did. The sin was one of pride! The devil told Eve if you eat the apple you will not die; you will be like God! Both lies! We can never be like God! Yes we all want to make our own rules and expect God to do our biding and answer our prayers just the way we want.
 
Imagine if, before you were born, your parents–who had nothing prior–were given a few million dollars by a philanthropic old man. Unfortunately, they squandered it all so you did not inherit those gifts. Instead, you were born in their life of deprivation.

The good news is, the old man’s son has been given everything by the old man and sent to share it with whoever of your parent’s children asks. Even if you make bad choices and squander them again, he will still replenish your account if you express regret and an intention to try and do better.

Rather than unjust, it seems extremely merciful and generous to me!
 
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I look at it like this…

When Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Good & Evil, their DNA was changed.

They are simply passing on their altered DNA to us.
 
Actually, the word “Sin” does not appear in the Bible until Cain and Able. Yes, we are pridefully coaxed into sin. It seems that “scapegoating” is the real transgressions here. Adam blames God for the woman. The woman scapegoats the serpent. We cannot turn towards God if we are constantly scapegoating and pride is a layer of scapegoating.
 
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jtwp5 said:
I don’t understand how it’s fair or just that all of humanity got punished because Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Shouldn’t children be innocent when they’re born? Yet we are made to feel guilty for something we didn’t even cause? No one asked to be brought into this world and no one was responsible for their existence. So why do we have to suffer because of Adam and Eve? How is that kind and loving? Creating humans, knowing they will screw up and then punishing them all? I’m getting sick of Catholicism, seems like it’s nothing but guilting and shaming others. No one wants to be told they are evil and bad.
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The reason for original sin is this:
the good of one person is the good of all.
We are connected as one body. As with all these questions about why evil…the answer lies in goodness. We are made to freely choose goodness. We share in that with everyone. And so we share also in the sufferings and consequences of poor choices.

We claim Adam as our brother and accept him as he is. I wouldn’t want it any other way.
 
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jtwp5 said:
I’m getting sick of Catholicism, seems like it’s nothing but guilting and shaming others.
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I have the opposite view. I see the world as a person floating in the ocean, hanging on to a piece of lumber. Not much hope. Cold, wondering if something was going to eat me alive, wondering how long I could hang on, stay awake. The Church is the ship that has sailors scanning the ocean, looking for someone who is waving at them on the sea. It’s rescue, it’s a warm bed and a hot meal. It’s the promise of being home soon.

I don’t see punishment when I look at Christ on the cross. I see incredible love, undeserved forgiveness, the hope of heaven.

Someone who says ‘I never asked to be born’ is going through a time of being angry. Take your time being ‘sick of it’, but not too long, and move on. Don’t get stuck there. Lift up your eyes and look ahead at the great opportunity in front of you. You have what it takes to be amazing. You have in front of you the ability to impact the world for good. It’s getting up every day and grabbing God’s hand and moving forward.
 
4Reverence said:
Can you provide documentation where Dr. Anders or Fr. Mitch
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Since I have gleaned these ideas from many years of listening to them both on You Tube I didn’t think I’d have a hope of finding any one particular program. But we got lucky here. I would like to point out, as well, that what I said is not new to the forum and this issue has been raised many times with others providing similar responses to my own. So the first link below is Dr. Anders. He answers a question almost identical to the OP here. Listen from the 42 minute mark. Then below that is Bishop Barron who provides a further explanation of what the Garden of Eden story is getting at; that we cannot appropriate to ourselves what the ideas of good and evil will be.

In other episodes, Dr Anders makes it clear that Catholics can read the Adam and Eve story literally if they choose but there is no obligation to do so.


 
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Thinking about the story of Adam and Eve, you know what I get out of it? That the devil is a liar. And he’s a smart liar. Now, today, is my turn to figure it out. To make good decisions. Smart choices.

He wants you and me to be shipwrecked on the rocks. Don’t fall for it.
 
If doesn’t matter what you call it it is rebelled against God. They were very intelligent and wanting to be like God which was a tremendous sin!
Then they looked like foolish children. They ran and hid. Good came looking for them! They they played the blame game! Anyway the question was why do we suffer from the effects of their sin? We would have done no better and we still do no better!
 
The issue for me is human death.

That is the part that there is no making right. Not “disordered desires” or any of the rest of it.

ICXC NIKA
 
Two things in regards to your response.
  1. If one chooses to not take Adam and Eve’s story literally how can one explain original sin and its origin?
  2. If the story of Adam and Eve can’t be taken literally how can we refer to Jesus as the new Adam and Mary as the new Eve.
 
These questions have all been dealt with before. I’m not Catholic and concern myself no further than what I have heard from those who know more about it than I. You’ll have to ask them.
 
“Prayer is the place of refuge for every worry, a foundation for cheerfulness, a source of constant happiness a protection against sadness.”
- Saint John Chrysostom

If you haven’t discovered this yet, it’s good news.
 
Techno2000 said:
It’s more than just an allegory.
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It’s an allegory for the “original fault” of the first human parents. While original sin from the action of the first human parents is theologically true, the story is figuratively written.There’s not a literal man named Adam and a literal woman named Eve that lived 5, 000+ years ago in Eden and ate a piece of forbidden “fruit”, thus condemning humanity.

Allegory definition is - the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence; also : an instance (as in a story or painting) of such expression.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/allegory

The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390).
https://www.catholic.com/tract/adam-eve-and-evolution

Do I seem to “bossy” or project a “know-it-all” image with this response? I just re-read my response and I’m like, “dang, that seems over the top”. I apologize if I appear rude because that isn’t my intent.
 
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jtwp5 said:
I don’t understand how it’s fair or just that all of humanity got punished because Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Shouldn’t children be innocent when they’re born? Yet we are made to feel guilty for something we didn’t even cause? No one asked to be brought into this world and no one was responsible for their existence. So why do we have to suffer because of Adam and Eve? How is that kind and loving? Creating humans, knowing they will screw up and then punishing them all? I’m getting sick of Catholicism, seems like it’s nothing but guilting and shaming others. No one wants to be told they are evil and bad.
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The doctrine of Original Sin doesn’t say that we’re evil or bad; rather, it tells us that there’s something very vital missing in us. And we’re here to decide, by our choices and actions, if we want it back, or if we, like Adam did as taught by the Church, prefer ourselves to God.

So the Church’s teachings aren’t about condemnation; they’re about information, about the knowledge we need to have in order to understand this very broken and messed up world, where truth isn’t held in high esteem, where selfishness and ego often run the day, with strife and harm of each other frequently the result. It explains a state of being that man finds himself in: cut off in some manner from God, from his fellow man, from the rest of creation, and from himself.

And regardless of whether or not we had anything to do with our own creation or existence, isn’t it true that we want it; don’t humans actually cherish their existence at the end of the day, generally speaking, over the alternative? Even in this messed up world.
 
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jtwp5 said:
No one asked to be brought into this world and no one was responsible for their existence.
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We don’t get to choose. That is ultimately justice, whether you accept it or not. It is human idea that we have to consent to everything. You do not ask for it to rain, yet it sometimes does- sometimes it’s good sometimes it’s bad. Really, idea you have to want everything around you in order for it to happen is ridiculous.
jtwp5 said:
No one wants to be told they are evil and bad.
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Again, does not matter. Why is it bad to be told you are evil and bad? Rejoice! Jesus was sent to people who are “evil and bad”- He was sent to save them! Seriously though, humans are not evil and bad just because of Adam and Eve. We take much more responsibility in that, but it is our choice whether we are bad or good.
jtwp5 said:
Yet we are made to feel guilty for something we didn’t even cause?
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No, you are not made feel guilty. You bear consequences. If your mother somehow torn all your clothes into shreds, would you be one guilty for it? No. Would you have nothing to wear? Yes. It is a consequence, not really guilt. Baptism cleanses us of that.
jtwp5 said:
Creating humans, knowing they will screw up and then punishing them all?
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There was possibility they would not screw up. God did not create us to screw up, but gave us free will to do so. He had backup plan for every situation, though.

Many Saints were born with Original Sins (most of them). Yet they became so much like God that they now hold place near Him- and they could do that. It is possible. Why is idea that we have to work to be good and to get to our final destination (God) so terrifying to you? If you want to just receive without being ever tempted or tried, if you just want to be happy without ever needing to choose or sacrifice, you do not understand that God wants us to grow in faith. Same way humans reach obstacles in their daily lives which they need to overcome to grow and get stronger, we overcome sins and obstacles to get closer to God.
jtwp5 said:
I’m getting sick of Catholicism, seems like it’s nothing but guilting and shaming others
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Why others? Most perfect Saints shamed and guilted themselves. If someone guilts and shames you, he just helps you with your job! Be grateful, because if someone does find error in you, then you can eradicate that error without needing to look for it. One great Saint once said that if someone criticizes him, he wonders “just this much? I deserve much more criticism for all my sins!”.

Ultimately, what is problem with is pride (trying to hide your errors and being ashamed and hateful if someone points them out) and sloth (wanting to be perfect without ever needing to do anything).
 
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SeraficLeo said:
Everyone knows it was Eve who bit it first. Therefore it’s all her fault. I resent the two people remark it’s sexist.

(PLEASE REALIZE THIS IS INTENDED TO BE A JOKE).
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It is historical fact that the first man to roll his eyes was Adam. :roll_eyes:
 
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