Why women cant be Catholic Priests

[simpleas]

If it’s symbolic of Christ washing the feet of the Apostles, which it is, why would women have to be included?

They obviously don’t.

Are women too dense that an accurate re-enactment of what actually happened that night would confuse them in that Christ showed the Apostles that as the new leaders of the commission they received, they were to go out with the attitude of servants towards those they lead?

Nope, but they question why the leaders couldn’t possibly ordain women as servants too.

Why would this be offensive to women that those who lead us are made to understand they are there to serve? Peter balked and was appalled at having his feet washed by Christ and yet, we have women today who insist it’s their right? If they aren’t priests, why do they need the lesson that leadership in the Church is to serve? The lack of humility is kind of sickening, really.

It’s not offensive to learn that we all are to serve, but maybe offensive that men are given this ‘right’ because of their sex, and woman not so.

It’s one thing if your priest or even Pope Francis decides to include whoever they wish. It can be symbolic in two ways. In the original and historically accurate way or in the way of the priest showing that the priesthood serves all people. It would be humbling to be chosen but to insist on it as a right is the antithesis of Christianity. Your pastor has the right to decide which way he would like this to be presented at Mass. The message is the same either way. The only thing I disagree with him about is not having it at all by being cowed by women who insist on having their feet washed. How arrogant can they be as if it’s some privilege?

I do not know whom the priest was speaking of, whether it was people in the parish or the diocese or the church as a whole. He didn’t say anyone had insisted women be included, but it’s obviously sure that some people will ask if the priest is including women as it has been introduced into the roman missal.
He is celebrating Maudy thursday, but I can’t recall what he said he was doing instead, just that he needed 4 men to help with something. So yes it’s his call what he does.
And yes it would be very humbling to be asked.
I remember years ago when I used to take part in the walk of witness on a Good friday evening, when the cross would be carried around the local churches/areas in the community. I remember men did the carrying, until one year when I was asked to carry the cross, I was very humbled.

 

[simpleas]

It is subjection but not just of women. When everyone including the clergy themselves abide by the truths that are taught in which the end result is we live forever with God in heaven, it’s not reality that it’s “subjection of women to men.

Yes you can say it’s subjection of both, but more so for women.

Holy Orders is not about us showing how we image God. It’s about Christ. We aren’t worshiping ourselves at Mass.

Yes I agree it’s about Christ.

Only a man can stand as ‘another Christ’ so Holy Orders does show how men image God more than women.

 

[Elizabeth3]

I haven’t heard of this.

Blessed Be the Name of the Lord - Christianity Today

Why 'Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier' is somewhere between heresy and idolatry.

www.christianitytoday.com

From some of the writings I have read noone is trying to take away calling God father, they are trying to add/include the feminine reality of God as described in the creation account.

Christ revealed to us the name of the Father. Who are we to add/include anything to God? There is no “feminine reality of God.” The perfections of fatherhood and motherhood are found in Him but He has no gender. To try to add anything to His name, which was revealed to us, is to create Him in our image.

I am not trying to imply that at all, you are misunderstanding what I’m saying…

Then what are you saying? Are you saying that the consequences of sin was that man, who would now be tempted to dominate woman, and through which Christ came to show us the way back to our original unity, means that Christ never meant for men only to be ordained as priests? That would only be true if the priesthood was about domination of women. The priesthood is something set apart for a sacred purpose to serve the people of God. You’re conflating two different things and making it seem like they go together. Returning things back to their original unity has to do with leadership as service instead of domination. It doesn’t mean everyone is called to be leaders.

Nope, but they question why the leaders couldn’t possibly ordain women as servants too.

Women do serve. They’re consecrated and called nuns and sisters. They just can’t stand in person Christi as Christ offering Himself to the Father in worship because we are meant to see Christ as He came as a man who offered Himself for all.

It’s not offensive to learn that we all are to serve, but maybe offensive that men are given this ‘right’ because of their sex, and woman not so.

Men aren’t called to the priesthood as a “right.” Was it offensive that Christ was a man and called Twelve Apostles who were men?

I do not know whom the priest was speaking of, whether it was people in the parish or the diocese or the church as a whole. He didn’t say anyone had insisted women be included, but it’s obviously sure that some people will ask if the priest is including women as it has been introduced into the roman missal.

Then all he would have to do is say yes or no. He’s not obligated to do it one way or the other. It’s his choice. If someone is disappointed or wants to complain, one would have to question their motives or understanding of what is being taught by this action.

I remember men did the carrying, until one year when I was asked to carry the cross, I was very humbled.

That’s great. Like I said, it’s one thing to be asked and another to insist on it as a right.

 

[Elizabeth3]

Yes you can say it’s subjection of both, but more so for women.

How so? If the end goal is Heaven and women can be greater or lesser in the Kingdom depending on their holiness here on earth, how are they subjected more in any way? Are their penances harsher? Is it said their sins are greater than if committed by men? Is their Baptism different? Do they wait until the end of the line to receive the Eucharist? Are there no religious vocations for them? If they are shown the clear path to heaven along with men, where is the “more subjected”?

Only a man can stand as ‘another Christ’ so Holy Orders does show how men image God more than women.

Being made in the image of God has nothing to do with our sex. It has to do with our ability to know, to understand, to have free will etc, which is not gendered.

Holy Orders doesn’t show that men are more in the image of God because the way in which we image Him isn’t based on sex. However, Christ did come as a man, Son of the Father, and that is essential for the priesthood which is an extension of the priesthood of Christ. The male priesthood in the OT prefigured Him who was to come and represents Him today as He is. If that’s offensive, then one’s beef is with God.

 

[edwest211]

This is just more of the same. Pope John Paul II settled the matter definitively.

 

[Sugabee43]

Yep.
I’ll repeat myself: these “reasons” why women should be made Priests are all the same tired old excuses- couched in all the buzzwords I’ve heard AD NAUSEUM - that went around the Episcopal Church in the 70’s, and it split that church in two.

 

[simpleas]

How so? If the end goal is Heaven and women can be greater or lesser in the Kingdom depending on their holiness here on earth, how are they subjected more in any way?

Because they are restricted in how they can serve.
A woman does not read the Gospel or preach the good news to the world in the same way a male priest can do.
I’d call that a subjection though it doesn’t seem like it is. The Catholic church treats women much better than some other religions, but I think it could allow women to participate alot more to show the equality and balance within the hierarchy.

When I read the words of Jesus I believed he was speaking to both sexes, telling both to bring the good news, it is us that have a cut of switch when it comes to who can serve God on the altar and who can not.

Woman can lead and I think they should have that privilege within the church same as a man does with the priesthood. NOT THE RIGHT TO.

That is just my opinion for what it’s worth.

(I keep getting a message that I am responding to you and not others! So this may well be my last post)

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Sugabee43]

@simpleas, you are still missing the whole point. The Catholic Church does not have the authority to allow women into the priesthood. Only God has that authority, and He did not give it.
The theology of the priest as in persona Christi during the sacrifice of the Mass prohibits anyone but a man being the icon of Jesus during the epiclesis. The altar is the Marriage Bed, and Jesus gives Himself wholly and completely to His Bride, the Church. This is why St. Paul talks about marriage in Ephesians 5, but says, “This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church”. If a woman is celebrating the Mass, it would be blasphemy.

 

[Elizabeth3]

Because they are restricted in how they can serve.

A woman does not read the Gospel or preach the good news to the world in the same way a male priest can do.

It really sounds like your argument boils down to “But it’s not fair.” Why does everything have to be exactly the same between men and women for things to be fair? Women read and preach the Gospel all the time outside of Mass. They aren’t restricted. In fact, they often have a much wider audience of listeners than the average parish priest. So I really fail to see that there is much “restriction” on women at all. A woman who is called to start and head a ministry is actually less “restricted” than a priest in many ways. Is that unfair to priests? There is no male order of consecrated virgins. Is that unfair to men?

The Mass is unique because it is worship. Christ is unique. He was a man born of a woman just as every priest on the altar is. He is also God Incarnate. It is more fitting for the purpose of worship and most Sacraments that it is a male priest who represents Him. He wanted to be present to His people, His Bride, for all time. Christ works through the priesthood in order to accomplish that. I, personally, take great comfort from it. The Mass is the Bridegroom encountering His Bride and where they become one so the Bride can go out to the world and be fruitful.

I’d call that a subjection though it doesn’t seem like it is. The Catholic church treats women much better than some other religions, but I think it could allow women to participate alot more to show the equality and balance within the hierarchy.

Well, you can call it subjection if you want, (which you mean subjection of women to men), but that’s not reality. It only leaves an unnecessary bitterness in the soul. The Holy Spirit works through those who are ordained and leads us to all truth. That’s the reality. Everyone follows the same “rules.” If it’s the Holy Spirit that is ultimately guiding us, adding women to the priesthood isn’t going to change the end result.

Now that the larger society has accepted women in all levels of education and the workplace, there are more and more women working in higher posts in the Vatican and probably even more so in individual dioceses everywhere. One example is Pia de Solenni

https://www.rcbo.org/leadership/dr-pia-de-solenni/

The wider range for bringing the Gospel to others is after we leave Mass. It’s what we do in our families, workplaces and communities in which the real work of the Gospel takes place. Some are called to have large ministries or to teach hundreds at a time in universities (women too!) and other persons have smaller ranges of people they reach but on a more personal and intimate level. It’s all very good and all needed in the world.

 

[Elizabeth3]

When I read the words of Jesus I believed he was speaking to both sexes, telling both to bring the good news, it is us that have a cut of switch when it comes to who can serve God on the altar and who can not.

He was speaking to both sexes and I just showed above how bringing the good news to the wider world is through the laity. That’s the bigger job and women participate freely in that.

It is Christ who left the Church without any authority to change what He instituted. He left us no word or example that He intended to call women as priests. He left plenty of evidence that a male priesthood is what He did intend.

Woman can lead and I think they should have that privilege within the church same as a man does with the priesthood. NOT THE RIGHT TO.

Of course women can lead. They do it all the time. You are, of course, entitled to have your personal opinion about women having the privilege of being priests. It won’t change anything though. The Church can’t change something that Christ gave every indication that He wanted. She doesn’t have the authority to do that.

Yes. We should probably end the discussion. It’s just going in circles at this point.

 

[simpleas]

If a woman is celebrating the Mass, it would be blasphemy.

Wow…

 

[QwertyGirl]

The Catholic Church does not have the authority to allow women into the priesthood. Only God has that authority, and He did not give it.

Who had the conversation with God seeking the authority? When was that? Who was there? Who did the asking?

 

[Sugabee43]

Again…Matthew 16: 17-19. Jesus gives the authority. No one asked Him; He conferred the authority upon Peter and the Apostles.

 

[Sugabee43]

@simpleas, it is by virtue of the relationship of Christ as Bridegroom and the Church as His Bride. A woman cannot be a man in a nuptial, mystical marriage.

 

[goout]

Sugabee43:
So I repeat my question. If God wanted both male and female priests how should Jesus have been incarnated?

You can’t ask someone to prove an absurd proposition.
If toads had two heads why aren’t they horses?

 

[simpleas]

Ok, so can you explain how to understand that men can be married to the bridegroom?

Why is it so horrendous to think of a woman being a minister to God’s family but not a man?

 

[goout]

Sugabee43:

The Catholic Church does not have the authority to allow women into the priesthood. Only God has that authority, and He did not give it.

Who had the conversation with God seeking the authority? When was that? Who was there? Who did the asking?

You can ask that question about any Christian teaching.
It’s simply a reflexive dispute of authority.
So? If you don’t believe there is such a thing as Church authority, what’s the point.

 

[simpleas]

It really sounds like your argument boils down to “But it’s not fair.”

I actually think the argument boils down to:

A woman must learn in quietness and full submissiveness. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man; she is to remain quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, and then Eve.…

Something I don’t know if Jesus ever thought or said.

Everything is taken on faith…

 

[goout]

Elizabeth3:

It really sounds like your argument boils down to “But it’s not fair.”

I actually think the argument boils down to:

A woman must learn in quietness and full submissiveness. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man; she is to remain quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, and then Eve.…

Something I don’t know if Jesus ever thought or said.

Everything is taken on faith…

This is a fundamentalist interpretation of scripture.

 

[alphawoman]

The April 1976 Pontifical Biblical Commission unanimously concluded, “It does not seem that the New Testament by itself alone will permit us to settle in a clear way and once and for all the problem of the possible accession of women to the presbyterate.”

Later deliberation saw the commission vote 12-5 in support of the view that Scripture alone provides no exclusionary requirement to the ordination of women. A second vote found 12-5 in favour of the notion that the Church could pursue female ordination without violating Christ’s original intentions in instituting the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

Subsequent declarations in “Inter Insignores” and by Pope John Paul II in “Ordinatio Sacerdotalis” were entirely founded on appeals to Tradition. We are a Church predicated jointly on reliance between both Scripture and Tradition. Where Tradition appears to run counter to Scripture, a re-evaluation is required.

This issue is very much not settled.