Why won’t all other Christians recognize the Roman Catholic Pope as their leader?

[Gabriel_of_12]

moondweller. apparently we need to clear up some of what was stated because what you are trying to preach and what was stated is not on the same page.

For one, it is obvious that you believe Sacred Scripture is your authority correct?

Fact: The Catholic church cannonized the books of the bible that we have today. Your king James VERSION of the bible is missing 7 books from the original Holy bible that the Catholic church still has today. Not to mention an added word “alone” to Romans by Martin Luther.

Now because the Catholic church cannonized your books of the bible infallibly, meaning without error.

You unknowingly already accept the Catholic church authority who gave the cannon of scripture to you. Meaning that these books are inspired of God. Yes the Catholic church, Magisterium and Popes. Determined which books in the bible are inspired of God infallibly.

If you absolutely will not accept the authority of the Catholic church then you must get rid of your bible, because that is where it came from. Ask Martin Luther he has already confirmed this in his writings. So this may leave you with no recourse but to invent your own beliefs in another authority.

So now that we can agree on the authority of the bible. The difference between you and I is, you believe Sola Scriptura is your authority. My belief in authority rests on God, his only begotten Son Jesus, The Holy Spirit.

Now who did Jesus leave on earth with his authority?
That is the Question that needs to be answered here. Without trying to attack the Hand that feeds you. So I will ask it again who does moonwellow believe that Jesus gave the authority on earth to preach, teach, feed, baptise all the nations of the world?

Now I think we can go from here, because all your explanation kept taking this topic to only your interpretation is the only one we are to hear, and your opinion outways facts. But as we will find out that isn’t the case here. You cannot divide Truth. Lets find out if the bible holds true that their is only One faith, One Church, One baptism.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

So now that we can agree on the authority of the bible. The difference between you and I is, you believe Sola Scriptura is your authority. My belief in authority rests on God, his only begotten Son Jesus, The Holy Spirit.

Now who did Jesus leave on earth with his authority?
That is the Question that needs to be answered here. Without trying to attack the Hand that feeds you. So I will ask it again who does moonwellow believe that Jesus gave the authority on earth to preach, teach, feed, baptise all the nations of the world?

Now I think we can go from here, because all your explanation kept taking this topic to only your interpretation is the only one we are to hear, and your opinion outways facts. But as we will find out that isn’t the case here. You cannot divide Truth. Lets find out if the bible holds true that their is only One faith, One Church, One baptism.

 

[moondweller]

moondweller. apparently we need to clear up some of what was stated because what you are trying to preach and what was stated is not on the same page.

Sure it is, I haven’t deviated from the issues you brought up. We just don’t come from the same direction. You continue to assert dominion rule over Christ’s universal church to the ecclesiastical hierarchy of the Latin (western) church. Even implying that such a dominion was, from the beginning, everywhere accepted and taught be Christ Himself and His Apostles. But the Scriptures fail to support the latter and history fails to support the former.

For one, it is obvious that you believe Sacred Scripture is your authority correct?

It is the final arbiter in respect to the Christian faith: doctrine and practice. It is most reasonable for men of God to conclude that there is no higher authority over them than God’s immutable Word. Now if you want to dispute whether the Bible is God’s Word, then that’s a whole other issue. But I must assume that if you’re a Christian then this is not an issue with you we’re on common ground.

Fact: The Catholic church cannonized the books of the bible that we have today. Your king James VERSION of the bible is missing 7 books from the original Holy bible that the Catholic church still has today.

Before any councils Eusebius was commissioned by Emperor Constantine to put together 50 Bibles (N.T.) for the churches of Constantinople. By extensive research he put together what was generally accepted by Christendom. In his history he lists four classes:1. Those universally accepted.
2. “Disputed:” James, 2 Peter, Jude, 2 & 3 John (but they were included in his Bibles).
3. “Spurious:” Those of the N. T. Apocrypha, including the “Didache.”
4. “Forgeries:” “Gospel of Peter,” “Gospel of Thomas,” “Gospel of Matthias,” “Acts of Andrew”, "Acts of John."His Bibles included the same 27 Books of the N.T. that we have in our Bibles today. The spurious and forgeries were not included.

Subsequently the councils of Carthage and Hippo, under the influence of Augustine (not the Roman Bishop), gave its formal ratification to the 27 Books of the N.T. In the early church the Jewish canon, or the Hebrew Scriptures, were universally received, but the O.T. Apocrypha, which was added to the Greek Septuagint, were at that time only in a general way considered as books suitable for church reading. And rightly so. They have historical value and help to fill in the gap between Old and New Testaments. But those writing all originated after the cessation of prophecy in Israel (400 years between Malachi and John the Baptist). Hence, they cannot be regarded as inspired, nor did Jesus or His Apostles ever quote from them. Augustine, however, included the O.T. Apocrypha because they were a part of the Greek Septuagint, yet he himself, in some places, inclined to consider them as “deutero-canonical,” i.e., bearing a subordinate authority.

Protestantism, of course, retained the accepted N.T. canon, but sided with the early church and the orthodox Jewish view by excluding the O.T. Apocrypha. A very wise decision, indeed. No Christian doctrine suffered from that decision.

Not to mention an added word “alone” to Romans by Martin Luther.

Yet none of my translations/versions insert that word. They’re based on a Greek text, not a translation. However, Pauline theology clearly presents divine justification as God’s gift through faith in Christ aloneRom 3:22-24 "…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly (not the godly through works), his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Now because the Catholic church cannonized your books of the bible infallibly, meaning without error…You unknowingly already accept the Catholic church authority who gave the cannon of scripture to you…Yes the Catholic church, Magisterium and Popes. Determined which books in the bible are inspired of God infallibly

To my knowledge no Pope attended the councils of Carthage and Hippo, and those councils only ratified what was already accepted by the churches. But no council is infallible, clearly demonstrated by those councils which included the O.T. Apocrypha in the canon of Scripture. And if they were infallible why then did your church have to give final sanction to its canon at the council of Trent? Why would something infallibly determined in earlier councils have to be sanctioned in a much later one?

If you absolutely will not accept the authority of the Catholic church then you must get rid of your bible, because that is where it came from.

LOL! This is not only circular reasoning, but it’s an erroneous conclusion. It’s also the height of arrogance. It’s one thing to interpret church history as serving the elevation and superiority of the western, Roman, church hierarchy (which it doesn’t), but it’s quite another to claim ownership of God’s written Word.

So now that we can agree on the authority of the bible.

We can?

My belief in authority rests on God, his only begotten Son Jesus, The Holy Spirit. Now who did Jesus leave on earth with his authority?

Nowhere in Christ’s recorded words do I read that He gave over, or left, His authority to anyone on earth, but that He Himself alone is still “head of the body, the church.”

 

[Jimmy_B]

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070511/070511_pope_saint_hmed_7a.hmedium.jpg

 

[Jimmy_B]

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[angelheart]

I believe the Christian teachings were already well sustained without the infallibility of the Pope…I believe the true Christian teachings were already well shaped by the Councils…

God bless!
Stefania

I like to stay on course on each thread, but I can be happy to entertain your invitation.

Authority, do we need it yes. With out it, we would have over 30,000 different Catholic denominations by now.

Infallibility is what sustains the Christian teachings brought down to us from our apostles and their successors. It was necessary that the Pope excercise this Papal authority given to him by Jesus christ through Peter. In order to keep the Apostolic teachings from changing to our times. Mr. Post man.

I dont get it why is every body afraid of infallibility? The Pope has rarely even used it. The church is more wise not to succumb to the changes of the world. The Roman Catholic church is Rock and cannot change or be moved to changing ideologies, does Jesus christ change? I believe he is the same yesterday today and forever more, and the church is his body, this appears to be the strife with infallibility.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Pope Benedict XVI will visit Washington D.C. in April, more information from an NBC News report here.

Are there any Catholics or non-Catholics here at CAF who plan on attending?

 

[angelheart]

Nowhere in Christ’s recorded words do I read that He gave over, or left, His authority to anyone on earth, but that He Himself alone is still “head of the body, the church.”

I am pretty sure that if He did, Christianity would have still been one united church; unfortunately, there is no passage in the Bible in which Jesus said: “I hand down my authority over to the Catholic Church.” Thus, we all try to interpret biblic passages the best we can, sometimes just forgeting the authority of the Ecumenical Councils and the Church Fathers on such matters.

God bless!
Stefania

 

[Swan]

I am pretty sure that if He did, Christianity would have still been one united church; unfortunately, there is no passage in the Bible in which Jesus said: “I hand down my authority over to the Catholic Church.” Thus, we all try to interpret biblic passages the best we can, sometimes just forgeting the authority of the Ecumenical Councils and the Church Fathers on such matters.

God bless!
Stefania

Personally, I don’t think Jesus thought his teachings were all that complicated. Love God, love your neighbor, love your enimies, don’t judge, ask God for forgiveness, don’t get entangled in worldy affairs (pretty much every church has missed the boat on this one), don’t build up your treasure on earth, live in peace, be humble. It’s not ambiguous.

 

[Jimmy_B]

We can? Nowhere in Christ’s recorded words do I read that He gave over, or left, His authority to anyone on earth, but that He Himself alone is still “head of the body, the church.”

You, **moondweller **posted -“We can?”

Who is “We”? And was your question-mark here intentional?

You, **moondweller **posted - "Nowhere in Christ’s recorded words do I read that He gave over, or left, His authority to anyone on earth"

Says who? How then, do you explain the need for Apostles? (See below - Mathew 16:15-19 and John 20:23). Where did you learn your theology and where did/does that person’s authority originate?

How do you explain 1Timothy 3:1-16? What is the “office of bishop”? (1Timothy 3:1)

You, **moondweller **posted - "He Himself alone is still “head of the body, the church”

Catholics believe this too! The Catholic Pope, as the Successor to Saint Peter, is today, “in-charge” of the Christian Church here on earth, with Jesus Christ at the head.

Mathew 16:15-19
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

John 20:23
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

1Timothy 3:1-2
1 This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task.
2 Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach,

 

[Namesake]

Personally, I don’t think Jesus thought his teachings were all that complicated. Love God, love your neighbor, love your enimies, don’t judge, ask God for forgiveness, don’t get entangled in worldy affairs (pretty much every church has missed the boat on this one), don’t build up your treasure on earth, live in peace, be humble. It’s not ambiguous.

I agree. It doesn’t make much sense that Jesus would have brought a message to save all mankind that was so hard to understand that it required scholars to figure it out. He said to come as children. He did not say to study hard for years and try to figure this deal out, then go tell the common people in a way they can understand. I believe that He presented His message in a way that we all can understand. Uncomplicated.

And I do not believe that He meant for us commoners to go to the Church authorities for understanding. That’s way too complicated.

I believe that He meant us to come to Him, only Him.

 

[moondweller]

Personally, I don’t think Jesus thought his teachings were all that complicated. Love God, love your neighbor, love your enimies, don’t judge, ask God for forgiveness, don’t get entangled in worldy affairs (pretty much every church has missed the boat on this one), don’t build up your treasure on earth, live in peace, be humble. It’s not ambiguous.

You’re absolutely right. And don’t forget the most important of all, believe in Him for eternal life.John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."You don’t need a council for that, or a Pope or Magisterium. All you need to know is how to read, and if you can’t do that all you need is someone to tell you. No special interpretation required. Just a true response of the heart.

 

[moondweller]

MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos

Check out the black guy way on the right holding the picture of Mary. Could it be Barack Hussein Obama? Did he convert?

 

[Madaglan]

Leaders and leadership positions exist in every aspect of our lives.

A “chain of command” with a leader at the top and an upper echelon (central leadership) is essential to any large organization. Any organization without a central command, where authority is not passed down from the top, through a series of steps or positions, with each person accountable to the one(s) directly above them, leads to confusion, chaos and that organization is ultimately doomed to failure.

Christianity has never been a democracy and Christianity has always had leaders.

Decision-making responsibilities always originate from the “top” of any properly structured organization, from the higher levels of authority to the lower levels. This is called leadership.

Leadership encourages compliance without dissension. Most organizations’ have a ‘pyramid” type structure or something very close.

All Governments have various leadership positions.
All Businesses have various leadership positions.
All Militaries have various leadership positions
All Professional Sports Teams have various leadership positions.

They all have a leadership structure or “chain of command", which starts at the top from the higher levels of authority to the lower levels.

How many governments, businesses, militaries and professional sports teams regularly consume the Flesh and Blood of their leader?

 

[angelheart]

You’re absolutely right. And don’t forget the most important of all, believe in Him for eternal life.John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."You don’t need a council for that, or a Pope or Magisterium. All you need to know is how to read, and if you can’t do that all you need is someone to tell you. No special interpretation required. Just a true response of the heart.

And what if you come across a person who is not giving you an answer from the heart? i personally don’t think it’s that simple: ask someone and you will find the truth…the devil is always trying to deceive us, which means that there is the danger of being taught wrong.

God bless!
Stefania

 

[angelheart]

Even though our society consists of various organizations that require leadership, it doesn’t mean they are infallible.

Stefania

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I believe the Christian teachings were already well sustained without the infallibility of the Pope…I believe the true Christian teachings were already well shaped by the Councils…

God bless!
Stefania

Infallibility has been excercised by the Apostles themsleves it is not anything new, only to the new protestant thinking that can only tradition there ever changing theology back 500 years max.

Read Acts 15:1 -29 (vs.17 b “Thus says the Lord who accomplishes these things, known from of old”,vs,28 It is the decision of the Holy Spirit and of us… (The apostles)

Infallibility was defined and doctrinated by the Catholic church to an already excercised belief, thus your bible comes from this infallibility authority, whether you accept this truth or not , you will know this faith on infallibility has alway been, and it will always be here until Jesus comes for his Church. More on this Later. I have to go.

Peace be with you.

 

[onenow1]

LOL You’re not theopneustos. God breathed life into Adam but that’s not what theopneustos means. Still LOL.The Holy Spirit states there that ALL Scripture is God-breathed.

By: OneNow1
Authority comes from the “Author of Life”, Acts 3:15. All authority comes from GOD, “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.” Rom 13:1-2.

Quote= OneNow1. Notice that GOD is selective as to just who He gives authority.

Jesus gives good examples of authority.

Note :John 19: 11 Jesus replied " You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.

Thre was also the time Jesus pays the tax for Peter, and Peter only.

Quote=moondweller. It was Paul writing to Timothy. But the key word there is “ALL.”

Quote= OneNow1 [All] keyword I think not !
There were no N.T. scriptures when Timothy was a youth !

You see moondweller, we have many disagreements, so why does the Holy Spirit lead us in different directions, since it is impossible for God to lie? Many denoms attest to this when they can’t agree.

Peace, OneNow1

When G.K. Chesterton was asked, whats wrong with the church he responed by saying. ME !

 

[onenow1]

I agree. It doesn’t make much sense that Jesus would have brought a message to save all mankind that was so hard to understand that it required scholars to figure it out. He said to come as children. He did not say to study hard for years and try to figure this deal out, then go tell the common people in a way they can understand. I believe that He presented His message in a way that we all can understand. Uncomplicated.

And I do not believe that He meant for us commoners to go to the Church authorities for understanding. That’s way too complicated.

I believe that He meant us to come to Him, only Him.

OneNow1 YUP ! Baptism ! And loook at all the beliefs of the different denoms 1. Then look at the teaching of the CC for 2000yrs.

I wonder what Jesus meant when he said the road is narrow.

Peace, One Now1.

 

[Namesake]

OneNow1 YUP ! Baptism ! And loook at all the beliefs of the different denoms 1. Then look at the teaching of the CC for 2000yrs.

I wonder what Jesus meant when he said the road is narrow.

Peace, One Now1.

The beliefs of the different denoms(sic) aren’t nearly as far apart as some Catholics are from each other.

I suppose you will find the Catholic church in that, but I sure do not. More power to ya.