Why won’t the Protestant non-Catholic Christians here, argue with the real Catholic Apologists at CAF?

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ckempston said:
Please, stop feigning outrage at someone for stating historical facts. I’m sorry if they’re inconvenient for you, but they happened. The point is that I, and many others, cannot, will not, and refuse to believe an infallable “Vicar of Christ” on earth had people murdered who disagreed. Somewhere along the way, things went terribly wrong. The world of denominationalism is as much a fault of the Catholic church and its wrongs as it is the fault of the individuals who led the Reformation, and those who continue to create new denominations.
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Just for the sake of argument… is anyone aware of any documentation of a Pope ordering the death of anyone?
 
jim1130 said:
I was not outraged at all. In fact, I found what you said rather amusing because “Gee, I’ve never heard THAT before.” So, rather than eleborate you provide no historical facts except to say that there are historical facts. Okay, then, what are they. Please educate us. How many people has the Catholic Church killed? You obviously have the information at your fingertips or you would not have made such a statement. Are we talking hundreds? Thousands? Millions? Billions? I mean, sure Henry the VIII lopped off the head of Saint Thomas More because of a disagreement over divorce, but that is only one so we have some catching up to do, right?
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I know this is an accusation that is often leveled at the Catholic church. I don’t discriminate, though. Calvin had people killed as well as leaders of other denominations, including fairly recent ones, such as the LDS church, and Protestants and Catholics alike did a pretty good job of exterminating Native American populations, justifying their acts by categorizing Natives as barbaric infidels, hardly better than animals.

Since you obviously just want to waste my time proving what everyone knows to be true, this will be my last response to you. Not that you will care, but I have no desire to argue the obvious with someone. I could simply take my pick from any number of crusades or inquisitions. I’ll specifically throw out the Albigensian Crusade, since it was recently brought up in another thread here. Nobody has challenged the fact that it, and other atrocities have happened, so I can only assume again that you want nothing else than to waste my time. Take care.
 
happilycatholic said:
Just for the sake of argument… is anyone aware of any documentation of a Pope ordering the death of anyone?
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Innocent. Albigensian Crusade. Look it up yourself. Once again, I’m not going to let you guys waste my time proving things that everyone in the world knows happened.
 
Steadfast said:
As with much in life, I think you have to pick your battles and the resources you are going to commit to fighting them.
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Agreed
These are matters over which you and I have far more agreement than either of us would have with many others and I am not saying that these things are unimportant or that we can fudge on them.
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What I am saying though, to use another stupid metaphor, is that we shouldn’t miss the forest for the trees and behave as though because these things are important, even essential, our differences are greater than they really are.
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Fair enough
In short, I don’t think these should be the measure by which we gauge the family likeness.
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And my point really was that with the data we have: Scripture, tradition, history, language, etc. we have done a very good job of staying close. I attribute this to the Holy Spirit.
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Some more than others, but correct
Where some would decry our divisions, I am, instead, continually amazed and humbled by our unity.
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It ahs amazed me that once we get past misunderstandings or terminology, how close we are.
Which is why the thread about how one Catholic poster prefers atheists and pagans to Protestants really galled me.
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I missed that one. I disagree, unless the Protestant will not buy a round 😛
Your point about humans not allowing for divergent views is well taken and speaks to something deep inside us which is out of balance with what we see in the world we live in.
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We want absolute monolithic unity, or we think we do; we try to insist on it anyway and we always measure others by our own standard. But this is wrong. For us, Christ is the standard and He is the one who imposes it.
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I agree. OUr fallen nature is strong. At times, we want it to be an excuse. At other times, we allow it to be stronger than it is.
This is eschatological though; and until he does so, it would be better for us to deal more gently with one another than is our wont, poor sinners that we are.
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True.

You’re pretty ok for a heretical Lutheran 😉 😛 😃
 
ckempston said:
I know this is an accusation that is often leveled at the Catholic church. I don’t discriminate, though. Calvin had people killed as well as leaders of other denominations, including fairly recent ones, such as the LDS church, and Protestants and Catholics alike did a pretty good job of exterminating Native American populations, justifying their acts by categorizing Natives as barbaric infidels, hardly better than animals.

Since you obviously just want to waste my time proving what everyone knows to be true, this will be my last response to you. Not that you will care, but I have no desire to argue the obvious with someone. I could simply take my pick from any number of crusades or inquisitions. I’ll specifically throw out the Albigensian Crusade, since it was recently brought up in another thread here. Nobody has challenged the fact that it, and other atrocities have happened, so I can only assume again that you want nothing else than to waste my time. Take care.
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I never said atrocities were not committed. I just asked for you to provide some information. It is common to make a statement, such as “the sun rises in the east” and then follow it up with some sort of proof to substantiate the claim. You opted not too. Fine. My tone was flippant because I hear these generalizations all the time and when I ask for something concrete the Crusades and Inquisition are always mentioned, but then it ends there. I do not deny it and I do not dismiss it. I just ask for some documentation. I’ve heard upward to over 1,000,000 people were killed in the Inquisition. The number usually depends on the person’s anti-Catholic sentiment. I am suprised you did not add anything about Copernicus. There have been 264 “Vicars of Christ” and undoubtedly some were pretty bad representatives (you mentioned one), but let us generalize all of them as scourges of the earth because, by labeling them all as bad, it allows us perpetuate our own prejudices. If you were driving along the interstate and someone in a Volkswagon Beetle cut you off do you generalize that all drivers of Volkswagon Beetles are knuckleheads? Or if you visit a store and the sales rep is rude and the person’s name is Otis then are all people with the name Otis rude? Prophets have been sinners (David in the OT) and not all of the apostles (Judas and even Peter himself) Christ selected turned out to be perfect so what have we learned? The potential for the sinfulness of all men (and women). Christ never promised the people would be sinless, only that the Church would prevail. The Church has prevailed in spite of the sinfulness of some. I make no excuse, I offer no denials, I state no dismissals. How history chooses to spin the information is open to interpretation. Feel free to knock yourself out with your biases.
 
ckempston said:
Innocent. Albigensian Crusade. Look it up yourself. Once again, I’m not going to let you guys waste my time proving things that everyone in the world knows happened.
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**Ever heard of a Christmas carol called, “The Twelve Days of Christmas”? Look that one up. **
 
jim1130 said:
I never said atrocities were not committed. I just asked for you to provide some information. It is common to make a statement, such as “the sun rises in the east” and then follow it up with some sort of proof to substantiate the claim. You opted not too. Fine. My tone was flippant because I hear these generalizations all the time and when I ask for something concrete the Crusades and Inquisition are always mentioned, but then it ends there. I do not deny it and I do not dismiss it. I just ask for some documentation. I’ve heard upward to over 1,000,000 people were killed in the Inquisition. The number usually depends on the person’s anti-Catholic sentiment. I am suprised you did not add anything about Copernicus. There have been 264 “Vicars of Christ” and undoubtedly some were pretty bad representatives (you mentioned one), but let us generalize all of them as scourges of the earth because, by labeling them all as bad, it allows us perpetuate our own prejudices. If you were driving along the interstate and someone in a Volkswagon Beetle cut you off do you generalize that all drivers of Volkswagon Beetles are knuckleheads? Or if you visit a store and the sales rep is rude and the person’s name is Otis then are all people with the name Otis rude? Prophets have been sinners (David in the OT) and not all of the apostles (Judas and even Peter himself) Christ selected turned out to be perfect so what have we learned? The potential for the sinfulness of all men (and women). Christ never promised the people would be sinless, only that the Church would prevail. The Church has prevailed in spite of the sinfulness of some. I make no excuse, I offer no denials, I state no dismissals. How history choses to spin the information is open to interpretation. Feel free to knock yourself out with your biases.
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Sorry if I’m missing your flippancy. Emotion doesn’t always transfer well in writing. I’m not a Catholic hater. I don’t hate the church and I certainly don’t hate any Catholics as individuals. I do, however, have a hard time reconciling what you describe with the idea that the Catholic church is the one true church and that the Pope is Christ’s Vicar. While there are many convincing arguments for parts of the Catholic faith, I would have a difficult time overcoming many others, this being one of them. Sorry if I seem overly frustrated with your request, but I don’t feel I should have to prove that the Catholic church has committed atrocities, when everyone knows that it has. As far as Copernicus, AFAIK, he died of natural causes. I at least try not to make false accusations, such as Catholics siding with Hitler, or any other number of crazy ideas such as the Pope being the anti-Christ, etc., etc., etc…
 
happilycatholic said:
By the way, what are you reverting to/from?
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I was born into a Catholic family, as I got older and left home and began my search, I was “converted” when I was met by, and studied with, someone from the International Churches of Christ, aka Boston Movement, aka Crossroads Church of Christ, etc., etc., etc. Those keywords should give you plenty of reading material, but for the record, I don’t agree with their practices or doctrines 100%. I’m just a poor wayfaring stranger wherever I go.

Hopefully that spells out where I’m at pretty clearly.

EDIT: As far as what I’m reverting to, I haven’t quite figured that out yet.
 
happilycatholic said:
Ever heard of a Christmas carol called, “The Twelve Days of Christmas”? Look that one up.
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ckempston said:
Nobody made any claims about Christmas carols, so I don’t see what the relevance of this statement is.
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What the poster is referencing is the origin of the “12 Days of Christmas.” In England the Catholics were persecuted by the Crown and were not allowed to teach or practice Catholicism. The “12 Days of Christmas” originated as a code-way for Catholics to teach one another the faith.

Now,if you ask me to identify each “symbol” I must admit I will be hard pressed to get too far, but here goes:

Partridge in a pear tree - Christ
2 Turtle Doves - OT and NT
3 French Hens - Is it the Trinity? Or Faith, Hope, and Love?
4 Calling Birds - 4 Gospels
5 Golden Rings -?
6 Geese a laying - ?
7 Swans a Swimming - 7 Sacraments
8 Maids a Milking - Is this the Beatitudes?
9 Ladies Dancing - ?
10 Lords a Leaping - 10 commandments
11 Pipers Piping - ?
12 Drummers Drumming - 12 Apostles
 
jim1130 said:
What the poster is referencing is the origin of the “12 Days of Christmas.” In England the Catholics were persecuted by the Crown and were not allowed to teach or practice Catholicism. The “12 Days of Christmas” originated as a code-way for Catholics to teach one another the faith.

Now,if you ask me to identify each “symbol” I must admit I will be hard pressed to get too far, but here goes:

Partridge in a pear tree - Christ
2 Turtle Doves - OT and NT
3 French Hens - Is it the Trinity? Or Faith, Hope, and Love?
4 Calling Birds - 4 Gospels
5 Golden Rings -?
6 Geese a laying - ?
7 Swans a Swimming - 7 Sacraments
8 Maids a Milking - Is this the Beatitudes?
9 Ladies Dancing - ?
10 Lords a Leaping - 10 commandments
11 Pipers Piping - ?
12 Drummers Drumming - 12 Apostles
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The only problem is that at that time, these would have been common in Anglican thought as well.
 
jim1130 said:
What the poster is referencing is the origin of the “12 Days of Christmas.” In England the Catholics were persecuted by the Crown and were not allowed to teach or practice Catholicism. The “12 Days of Christmas” originated as a code-way for Catholics to teach one another the faith.

Now,if you ask me to identify each “symbol” I must admit I will be hard pressed to get too far, but here goes:

Partridge in a pear tree - Christ
2 Turtle Doves - OT and NT
3 French Hens - Is it the Trinity? Or Faith, Hope, and Love?
4 Calling Birds - 4 Gospels
5 Golden Rings -? Torah
6 Geese a laying - ? Six Days of Creation
7 Swans a Swimming - 7 Sacraments - gifts of the Holy Spirit: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety and fear of the Lord.
8 Maids a Milking - Is this the Beatitudes?
9 Ladies Dancing - ?Fruits of the Holy Spirit - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.
10 Lords a Leaping - 10 commandments
11 Pipers Piping - ? Apostles
12 Drummers Drumming - 12 Apostles 12 points of belief expressed in the apostles creed
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🙂
 
happilycatholic said:
**Yeah, sigh we catholics never get the credit 😛 **
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I know.

I posted it to say that this is not a sure sign that it was used to teach Catholocism underground.

A better Christmas tradition from the era of Oppression in England is the Candle in the Window.
 
ralphinal said:
I know.

I posted it to say that this is not a sure sign that it was used to teach Catholocism underground.

A better Christmas tradition from the era of Oppression in England is the Candle in the Window.
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**Oh, see, I didn’t know that one 🙂 **
 
happilycatholic said:
**Oh, see, I didn’t know that one 🙂 **
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In the era before electrical or even gas lights, it was DARK at night. In fact, the way we measure light, lumin, in connected to the visibility of a single candle from a certain distance.

Now, in those days, when a loved one was out past dusk, a single candle was left in the window to show them where home was. The phrase exists today, most notably in an REO Speedwagon song.

During the oppression, a candle was left in one window of the home (east I think) to tell wandering priests that the home was safe.
 
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